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  • Kim Meninger

Be an LGBTQ Ally at Work

Updated: May 12, 2023

Be an LGBTQ Ally at Work - Sarah Scala

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about how to show up as allies to the LGBTQ community in the workplace, including why it’s important to use pronouns correctly, how to manage microaggressions and how to help people feel safe at work. My guest, Sarah Scala, a consultant with a specialty in LGBTQ coaching, shares her experience as a member of the community and what we can do to better support members of underrepresented groups in the workplace.

About My Guest:

Sarah A. Scala M. Ed & OD, PCC (She/Her/Hers) Serving as consultant, coach, and educator, Sarah Scala’s experiential and high-energy approach increases client revenue, reduces turnover, creates business value, and transforms performance of executives, leaders, and teams, helping them reach their highest potential. She provides organization and leadership development, executive coaching, change management, public speaking facilitation, and team development solutions. She supports US-based and global clients across cultures, generations, geographies, and diverse industries. She has extensive experience working with organizations that strive to balance excellent performance, in addition to supporting LGBTQ+ leaders. Learn more at:


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Kim Meninger Good morning, Sarah. I am so excited to have this conversation with you. You and I have known each other for a few years now. And I’m so grateful to be able to take our conversation to the listening audience. So welcome. And I’d love for you to introduce yourself.

Sarah Scala Awesome, Kim. It’s an honor to be here. And I just want to say thanks, right, right out of the gates. So my name is Sarah Scala, my company, Sara Scala Consulting just turned 10 years old last month. When people ask like, who are you? Or what do you do? I tell people, you know, I’m a high-energy, senior talent management leader. And I’m always focused on increasing client revenue, reducing turnover and creating business value. And I do that through executive coaching, organizational development and change, LGBT leadership coaching. I do a lot of moderating of panels, change management and leadership development, in addition to public speaking. So I’ve been doing this work over 20 years now and running my own company, for ten.

Kim Meninger So this is a question I actually don’t have the answer to. Or maybe I just might not remember, which is terrible. But how did you get here? What were you doing before?

Sarah Scala Yeah, how did I get here? So Kim, it’s funny you ask that because I get that question, like, once a week. So frequently, that I’ve written a blog on it. And I’m happy to get you the link to the How Did I Get Here? blog for your show notes. But I’ve, my career has been in leadership development and team development and coaching now for as I said, over 20 years. When I was 17, or 18, in high school, we had Project Adventure, experiential learning team-building programs, when I went to high school at Falmouth High School on Cape Cod. And I just thought, wow, this is really cool. Like, we can climb things and do team building. And I got really inspired by that at like age 17 that I looked for a college that had a bachelor’s degree in Adventure Recreation. So I went to Green Mountain College in Vermont. My dad and mom also said, Well, that’s fine if you want to go and play for, play for four years at college. But we also want you to get a business degree. And so I studied both. Um, throughout my career, you know, I’ve worked in, in experiential learning, I’ve worked in corporate learning in the financial and in engineering industries. And I’ve also had the privilege of running a consulting company in my mid to late 20s and early 30s. So always focused on helping leaders in organizations do better, be better, and get better. So we’re at a particularly interesting time in history. I mean, every time is interesting, but we’ve had a lot of change. And there’s certainly been a lot of volatility in workplaces.

Kim Meninger So what are the key themes that you’re seeing right now? Like, what are people coming to you for? What kind of problems are you addressing?

Sarah Scala Yeah, so the solutions that I try to provide with problems that clients bring me, many, much of my work these days is working with employee resource groups. So businesses often have employee or business resource groups, special interest groups, sometimes it’s a women’s group, sometimes it’s people with disabilities and abilities. Many organizations now have LGBT employee or business resource groups. And many of those at major companies are partnering with me to do development programs around psychological safety and diversity, optimism, resilience, and grit and diversity, LGBT, emotional intelligence. And so these are the themes and topics and areas that many, many companies will reach out to me to do work around. A number of leaders and executives also choose to partner with me because, although I have a coaching practice that has kind of five focus points, one of those is exclusively LGBT employee and leadership coaching. And that solution continues to get more and more demand, which is super exciting for me to be able to support with those who are my clients. And then there are other times where a client says, You know what, we’re, we’re a very successful company. We’re small. We’ve never done anything in DEI. Can you help us create and launch a DEI council or our efforts in that area? Can you look at some of our documents and policies to see where are we in terms of being an inclusive or perceived inclusive workplace? Can you help our leaders? We’re, we’re just starting a leadership development program and your website says situational leadership. Can we talk about that? And that’s a program I’ve been teaching now for over a decade. And so I find leadership development, diversity and inclusion and LGBT exclusive coaching and speaking, facilitated events have been the highest demand.

Kim Meninger So I remember when you decided to formally announce that you’re going to be doing LGBT coaching. And I’m curious, because this is a topic I haven’t explored fully on this podcast, what is important about having a coach that’s specific to LGBT?

Sarah Scala Yeah, so a couple of things that you’ve shared that I want to address. The first is coming out as an LGBT business, again, happy to share the link to that short blog, in your, in your, in your notes as well. But early last year, I decided that I was going to more publicly come out as an LGBT business solutions provider. I’ve been doing that work for a number of years, but I didn’t have the rainbow flag up. My website didn’t say LGBT, you know, frequently. And with some clients, they did, they didn’t even know that I was a member of this community. And so last year was my coming out year and it started, you know, by being in coaching groups and getting some feedback and support and working with some of my mentors, doing really small community based you know, pro bono LGBT workshops, and went from that in January/February, Kim, to in Pride being booked out to work with Fortune 500 and amazing companies to support their LGBT employee resource groups to October of last year to being selected to lead a workshop at Out and Equal. They have a global summit that is the world’s largest LGBT workplace-specific conference. And so go from January being a little hesitant, kind of testing the waters to October, being a key speaker at the largest global LGBT conference was, was my path to it, you know, each month I took some different steps, different risks, few more things on the website, few more speaking events, bigger speaking event, more blogs that are specific LGBT focus. And now, the DEI diversity, equity and inclusion, and or LGBT-focused work that I’m doing these days is becoming a bigger and bigger percentage of the work that I’m getting asked to do. As far as LGBT coaching, I have a lot on this as well, because some people are like, what’s the difference? What makes this special? And I tell people, I am legally, ethically required to follow the same rules of play as every other certified leadership or executive coach. I’m certified at the Professional Coach Certification level with the International Coach Federation. And those ethics and guidelines I have to follow, whether I’m doing LGBT leadership coaching, executive coaching, coaching CEO, C-suite teams, coaching entrepreneurs, so those rules, and that game plan is identical. But what makes it pretty unique is that not only are we focusing on what’s going on at work, but it very often happens, Kim, that a client will say, Well, here’s where we are in strategy, here’s where I am with, you know, communicating or intellectual, you know, so different typical coaching topics, but then something will come up and the client will have been misgendered at a global women’s only conference and called a man or dealing with microaggressions at work where people kind of think they’re funny, but it’s not, or deciding when and where and who to come out to at work or with their families. And although I’m not a therapist, it’s very common for those topics that are very LGBT-specific to seep their way into our coaching as well. And so you know, sometimes they need some tips or we need to talk through what their response will be to some of their situations or bringing harassing situations to HR or things like that. Sometimes when clients are sharing things, and I’m not comfortable supporting them as their coach, I will suggest or refer them to a therapist because I’m not a therapist, but some of these really key topics, microaggressions, misgendering, coming out, affect them very heavily at work and their role as leaders. So those are some of the things that make LGBT executive and leadership coaching pretty unique.

Kim Meninger Thank you for that and you know, DEI is so central to the work that I do as well and you, you know that one of my specialty areas is impostor syndrome. And I really think a lot about psychological safety and people’s ability to bring their best selves to the workplace. And so I wonder if you could share some of the themes that maybe are coming up in your conversations around diversity and inclusion as it relates to the LGBT population that maybe those of us who are not part of that community wouldn’t, wouldn’t see or understand from the outside so that we could be better allies and advocates in the workplace.

Sarah Scala Yeah, that’s such a great question, Kim. So I’ll give an example. I just helped a client, a Best Place to Work company, awesome company been working with them for five or six months, to launch their DEIB Council that’s diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging, amazing company. And with their council, we’re now, we just finalized and voted on their mission last month. This afternoon, we’re gonna meet again, to finalize some first steps. One of the things that they wanted to do is each month, you know, pick a DEI theme and get an article for allies in their newsletter. So that’s like step one. But other bigger things that we are discussing is, and this is a small company, 150 people, 10% of the company signed up to be on the DEIB Council, which is huge. But part of our work is going to be around policies. HR wants the council to be reviewing current and future job descriptions to make sure you know, are they using pronouns? Should they not be using pronouns? To think through things like that. How are their restrooms? Are they gender-inclusive restrooms? Are they still male and female? Are their HR policy forms she/him or Mr./Mrs? Where are the rest of the people? And so looking at policy, but also looking at community outreach, right? So I think next year, we’re going to dig into some more outreach type of programming. But a lot of the work I foresee in the next six months, as we start looking at topics, programs, employee resource groups as a possibility. It’s going to be very heavy on education, helping people be aware of things like pronouns, being aware of intersectionality, being aware of understanding of differences. And there’s, you know, I think if you were to ask people 10 years ago, like what’s diversity and inclusion, it would very much be about race, and nationality and gender. And today, there’s just so many more topics that fall into that diversity category, like disabilities, like socio-economic status, religion, race, gender, obviously falls under that umbrella too. But there’s just, there’s just so many pieces that we need to think about. And we all often, we have multiple pieces to the puzzle. So I am a woman, identify as a woman, female. So I have that. I’m also a member of the LGBT community. So I have that. And so the intersectionality of that has led, I think, a lot of my clients will bring me in exclusively to work with their LGBT employee resource group. And then as we get into talking, they say, Whoa, we need to go much bigger than this. We need to focus on diversity in general, or we’re not yet ready to exclusively focus on LGBT things. Or this happened very frequently this year, I would get brought in by the LGBT, you know, Pride chairs or co-chairs. And then they would say, we want to expand this to more of our population. We also could have more funding if we did joint efforts. So some of my clients would do a program in Pride that was the Pride ERG, the Veterans ERG and the Women’s ERG just to open it up to a much wider audience, but also so the employee resource groups typically would be able to have more funding to pay for excellent speakers like you and I, Kim.

Kim Meninger Yeah, and I think there’s so much value to including different people in these conversations anyway, right? Because one of the things that I found, having spoken to a lot of women’s groups, is that, despite the fact that they are generally open to the public, there’s still some hesitation on the part of people who aren’t part of that group to attend. Right? Feeling like will I be safe here? Will I be taking up the spot of somebody else who should be here or has the right to be here, you know, et cetera? There’s all kinds of concerns. So I think that partnering up with these different groups, partnering together is a great way to break down some of those barriers.

Sarah Scala Yeah, so that, that’s a theme I’ve seen quite a bit. And then I have a client last week, big fortune 500 company who said, we’re not even bringing you to work with our employee resource groups. Your programs are going to be during our DEI month. We have a whole month of February, and it’s open globally to all employees worldwide. Because everyone needs help in diversity and psychological safety, or diversity and positive psychology or, you know, understanding the dollars and cents of diversity or not being inclusive. It’s a, so that’s actually been kind of welcoming to see more companies that are wanting to engage with larger audience around these important workshops.

Kim Meninger Yeah, I agree. And I actually have a question for you, too, because you mentioned pronouns. And I think that’s a big topic of conversation right now. But not everybody understands it. And I’m curious if you could share, why is it important to focus on pronouns?

Sarah Scala That’s such a good question. It is important because people want to be addressed with how they, how they with what is true for them. And when I say what is true for them, my pronouns are she/her/hers. It says it on all my signatures on the bottom, on my Zoom pages, usually when I speak at events, I announce it right in the beginning. It’s important because people want to be their, their, their authentic whole selves at work. And it’s interesting, because other pronouns like they/them/theirs, or zx/zxr with an X, there are many others. Those are just two that we may not think about regularly, are extremely important. If the person is gender nonconforming and they refer to themselves as they, we need to call them they. And an interesting thing happened in Canada last October, Kim. In Canada, it became a human rights violation to misgender anyone in the country. So if you’re an employee, and they tell you, Hey, boss moving forward, my pronouns, are they/them/theirs, and you decide to ignore that or decide not to do it, especially in a mean, a negative way, in Canada, that is a human rights violation. That’s huge. We’re not there in the United States yet. But in Canada, the country, their leadership said, Heck, no, we are not going to tolerate, you know, people being discluded people, you know, being harassed or not having their preferences respected. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a violation of the human rights, which is fascinating.

Kim Meninger Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, both of us have our pronouns here on our screen. And like you said, I tried to incorporate that too. And I think there’s something really powerful about using them because it shows respect and appreciation.

Sarah Scala Absolutely. It shows support too. I think, even five or 10 years ago, Kim, if people were to put their pronouns in their signature, it was automatically assumed they were LGBT. And today, many, many, many allies are doing the same as a show of support.

Kim Meninger Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s, that’s really what I’m really focused on too is, what can we be doing, generally speaking as allies to all communities, but particularly those that we don’t necessarily identify with personally. And so are there other things, I know the pronoun, the pronoun conversation is a big one, but are there other things that maybe we don’t understand? Or that we could be doing more proactively to better support the community based on what you’re hearing from your clients?

Sarah Scala Yeah, so a couple things. The first is that when it comes to pronouns, if you are in a leadership role, especially, and you’re comfortable with using pronouns and asking members of your team to share their pronouns, and everyone has a choice, that, that not only helps to make it safe, but it also shows that you are an ally or you’re in support of people being themselves. Some people will not use their pronoun, they just will not. They don’t want to maybe be outed. They don’t want to be put on the spot. And that’s okay too. But starting meetings by saying I’m Sarah Scala. Thanks for coming to our meeting. My pronouns are she/her/hers. If anyone in the group would like to share their pronouns with the group that’ll be great. If you don’t want to share that it’s okay too. Again, give me a choice. That’s, that, that is, that is a big deal. And then when it comes to awareness around diversity or LGBT folks, but this could be true for religion, or it could be true for many other, you know, pieces of diversity, just because a person has come out to you does not mean they’re out to the whole rest of the world. And those of us who are, you know, a certain religion or a certain sexual orientation, have to survey the scene for safety multiple times in a day and make a decision based on how we feel about our safety, to come out or to not come out to people. So it’s never okay to out someone else ever. Even though they told you, that doesn’t mean that they have told the whole world. But also keep in mind the amount of energy it takes for an LGBT person to have to make that decision multiple times in a day. It’s an added level of, not so much anxiety maybe, could be anxiety, but stress that is put on folks like me, who are LGBT, who are constantly surveying the scene to check and make sure it’s safe. Is it safe for me and my partner to hold hands when we go, you know, down into the city of Boston, or we go to the aquarium? And sometimes we choose yes. And sometimes we choose no, because of that. And, so, I think a lot of times, folks who are not in a less represented group, whether it’s orientation, may not realize the amount of effort and work that we have to do constantly throughout the day, every day, with being our authentic selves or not.

Kim Meninger That really hit me when you said that, because that is a really, you know, it’s really sad to me to think that that kind of energy needs to be consumed, especially in 2022. But of course, you know, there’s more in a crazy world. But I think that’s really worth emphasizing your point that just because someone has trusted you doesn’t mean that they trust the world, and that you can’t make that decision for them. And I think about that because there are a lot of ways in which you might do that inadvertently to like, especially social media, if you’re, if you’re having conversations about somebody and other parts of business, perhaps like, that’s a really important thing to be mindful of. And I think, you know, it’s, it’s the kind of thing exactly what I’m getting at is the kind of thing that we may not do with any malicious intent, but could, could accidentally do.

Sarah Scala Yeah. And so just to know that, just to know that we’re not out to everybody, and we’re constantly checking the our environments or cultures or teams to know, is it safe? Is it not safe now for me, I put the rainbow flag on my LinkedIn page, it’s right there I am trusting knock-on-wood, trusting that the world will be nice, and it has been fortunately, but it’s not that way for everybody. Politically, culturally, there’s a lot of different legislations that are, that are going on. I especially have to be careful now with the state of Florida who in July passed the Stop Woke Act, which means Human Resources cannot require anti-harassment or inclusion training to their employees. And if an employee feels forced, they can sue up to $200,000 per case. Now me as the facilitator, as the speaker, I had to work with my attorney to tighten up the terms of my contract because I have clients who are nationwide or worldwide. And we have participants from the state of Florida and I’m not calling out Florida, I’m simply just giving an example of legislation that has passed that many people who don’t live or work in LGBT-specific focus may not even be aware of that. And so keeping my eye on, you know, possible changes in legislation has become important. There before it, it was less.

Kim Meninger That’s a really important point too. And one thing I wanted to pick up on was when you were talking about scanning the environment, and I think this is something that we could talk about even more broadly because it ties back to psychological safety. You had mentioned some tips for leaders in terms of pronoun introductions within meetings. What else do you think is important for leaders to be thinking about? In terms of creating more psychologically safe and inclusive spaces, because I think this one is, is a real missed opportunity for so many organizations, because they just sort of take things for granted, at least in my experience. My sense is there’s this assumption that meetings are the, the sort of most effective way to have a conversation with people meetings get scheduled, without thought without planning, oftentimes, and so a lot of people, for a lot of different reasons feel left out of those environments. And I’m curious if you have thoughts on, what can we be thinking about whether we’re leading the meeting, or we are a part of the meeting to ensure that everybody feels welcome and included?

Sarah Scala Great, awesome question. One thing that I tell leaders to do is to keep an eye on or keep a pulse on what’s happening in your state or in your country. Just in general, that doesn’t mean you have to subscribe to New York Times or you know, Wall Street Journal or, but just keep an eye on things and think about things that might be happening in your local, statewide or national community, and how they may impact your diverse employees. One example is the murder of George Floyd. Right? We can’t just pretend that that did not happen. It’s a huge event. It’s a unfortunate event that happened. But if you’re a typical CEO, Executive in the United States, there’s a high likelihood you’re middle-aged, white and male, not everybody, but that, that’s where things lean. And if you’re not comfortable showing some empathy to your diverse workforce, about things like that, or when folks who are trans are being murdered, or just, just all those specific things that unfortunately happen, even today, that may affect employees, the recent Roe vs. Wade overturning that may affect women in the United States of America, having some empathy, being aware enough to understand and think about that I know, younger employees are expecting their employers to take a stand on some of this, on a lot of this, there were a lot of companies that came out against racial injustice when George Floyd was murdered, and follow that up by a lot of learning, development and policy. There were many companies who said in our state in our company, we’re global. But if your state has now banned abortion, no, that will pay for you to go somewhere else. And again, I haven’t told you my opinions on any of these topics. I’m just sharing some examples of what we see in from major Fortune 10, and fortune 50 companies to say, we’re not about you know, racial inequality, we’re not about you know, blocking our employees for getting health care. And so looking as a leader, or a CEO, or on the C suite of a company, younger employees are expecting you to have an opinion and have a voice. And hopefully, it is one that’s leaning towards the side of inclusion. Those are just a few examples that are top of mind for me, Kim.

Kim Meninger And I think that’s such a great way of thinking about it, because I’m really hopeful, and maybe naively so but I will, I will maintain hope as long as I can write that, that we are moving in the direction of no longer assuming that people will check their humanity at the, at the door when they go into work right then. And I do think that a lot of this is influenced by younger generations, and I’m so grateful for that. But to ignore the headlines to ignore the events that are happening around us, is [We can’t] Yeah, it’s not only not inclusive and disrespectful, but it’s also counterproductive to your business. Because you have to acknowledge that people are distracted, you have to acknowledge that people are experiencing tough times.

Sarah Scala Absolutely. And I think, you know, trying to be aware, just trying to be aware of just what’s happening, whether you agree, maybe you disagree. But simply being aware and being willing to show some empathy, even if your opinion is different, I think is really important. And Kim, you asked about diversity and psychological safety, like what can we do? We have to keep in mind that employees who are underrepresented and when I say underrepresented, you can be a white male on your team that is underrepresented because the rest of your team could be all females or could be all people of color. So I’m not, I’m not saying that white men are excluded in being underrepresented. But in general, employees who are underrepresented on their team, they may feel like they don’t belong, they may not feel included, they may be surviving versus thriving, and they may feel less safe being authentic. And so I think when we think about psychological safety, like, what can we do? How can we build psychological safety for our diverse, and our underrepresented employees, a few examples that I can share that came from an excellent certification program that I took from the University of South Florida, Muma School of Business, they had a DEI In the Workplace certificate program that I did last year. They share it on allyship, empathy, acknowledge and celebrating differences. Practicing active listening is also extremely important to support psychological safety on your team. And acknowledging and accepting our unconscious or internal biases. Folks who are listening, every single person on the planet has unconscious bias we all do, no matter what we look like, or what religion we are, or what our gender is, or orient, we all do. And so working to be more aware of your biases, and to start maybe closing them close to closing that gap is also important.

Kim Meninger One other question I have for you, Sarah, and I don’t mean for you to be the, you know, the person who has the answers to all these questions, because if it were that simple, we’d be out of a job. But one question I have for you because I know a lot of people find themselves in this situation is I want to be an ally, I want to do the right thing. But I’m afraid of overstepping I’m afraid of misreading the situation. I don’t want to get it wrong, right? So, so let’s say, for example, I’m in the meeting and I’m, I’m not speaking as myself here. I’m speaking as a lot of people who, who have been in this situation, but like, let’s say I’m in a meeting and I see a microaggression. Or it’s possible that somebody is not feeling included. But it’s not obvious enough that I, that I take immediate action. And so I’m kind of thinking like, Lou, how do I navigate this so that I show support, but don’t assume?

Sarah Scala Yeah, so I find, you know, the more years I spend as a coach or leadership facilitator, or public speaker, I find the longer my career moves, the more time I’m spending listening, and the less time I’m spending speaking. Now, if you hire me to be your speaker, obviously, I’m going to talk quite a bit, but I find the more I can listen to try to understand the better. Also, you know, I asked at the end of my diversity and psychological safety workshops, we do a menti poll that asks, How are you going to hold yourself accountable for being, you know, an inclusive leader. And some of the options there are added to my personal development plan, my individual development plan, put it out there, you know, for my company to know, this is an area of development, I’m working towards having an accountability buddy, try to connect and build relationships with folks who are different from you. And so some of those and you know, I give three or four choices, and they pick on the menti poll all that applies, but people are picking more than one option there. So an accountability partner extremely helpful. Connecting with folks who are different from you, but putting it in your IDP, or your individual development plan is key, because then your leader will look at that whenever you do, you know, performance check-ins, what are you doing for this? What do you do for that? And it’ll help you to be more accountable. But yeah, if there’s a microaggression, again, sometimes that depends on the situation and who did it absolutely needs to be addressed? Does it need to be addressed and called out right in the middle of that meeting? Maybe or maybe not. But, um, but definitely, you know, things like that need to be addressed. And often Kim, what I find is, people are not aware that they’ve done on microaggression, or it’s not done intentionally, or they’re not aware that it is considered microaggression. They may say, Oh, I was just joking around. I think a lot of times when people are made aware that it’s unacceptable, and that it is considered a microaggression. Hopefully, people, people will change behavior, but there are, you know, lawsuits against companies that have reported issues like microaggressions, the company or human resources have done nothing. And companies are also being sued. So if you’re a leader in a company or you work in human resources, it’s your job to make sure your people are safe. They feel included so that they can show up and do their best work.

Kim Meninger Yeah, and I, I think to two of the things that really jumped out at me, everything you said is great, but if two things that really jumped out at me as listening, and making a deliberate effort to connect with people who are different from you, because I think it just automatically sensitizes you to things that you might take for granted or not think about because you have a different experience. And so it just raises your empathy level. And it makes you feel more comfortable showing up in these situations to because you, you feel better connected to the people around you.

Sarah Scala Absolutely. And there’s a lot we all don’t know. There’s so much we don’t know. So sometimes just asking and letting the other person ask you, because if you’re not in the same background, gender race-oriented, you’re gonna have differences that they may have questions about as well. Wow. And so it’s just important again, to have it be reciprocal. I’m a big fan of reciprocity.

Kim Meninger Yes. I love that. This is great. Well, this has been such a great conversation. Sarah, where can people find you if they want to learn more?

Sarah Scala Well, they can find me on my website, which we’ll put the link in the show notes. It’s That’s S A R A H for happy s c a l And I’m on LinkedIn, I write a blog every week that comes out on Tuesdays, I share a video or a great success story with a client every Thursday. And I would love to be connected to anyone in the audience. So thanks.

Kim Meninger Well, thank you and thank you for all the amazing work that you’re doing to make the world a better place and for your friendship over the years too.

Sarah Scala Awesome. Well, this has been wonderful.

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