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  • Kim Meninger

Don’t Be Afraid to Look Like a Fool

Updated: May 12, 2023

Don’t Be Afraid to Look Like a Fool

In this week’s episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about why it’s so important to show curiosity and be vulnerable in our connections with others. Many of us struggle with building new relationships, particularly in light of changes in the workplace resulting from the pandemic. My guest this week, Rob Maloney, host of the Heart & Hard Work podcast, shares that his default assumption is that humans want to connect, so he’s always willing to take the risk. We also talk about the power of the growth mindset and why it’s important to show compassion toward ourselves if we want to support others.

About My Guest:

Rob Maloney’s life experiences forged a trilingual “learn-it-all” world traveler w/ 2 master’s degrees working at Microsoft and host of the “Heart & Hard Work” podcast. He empowers rethinking by sharing perspectives of purpose as a multiplier leader building communities where people can thrive together. He’s driven to reshape broken notions of fixed limitations and mental health while reteaching a growth mindset, emotional intelligence, and meta-cognition to actualize our full potential.


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Kim Meninger Welcome, Rob. I’m so excited to continue our conversation. I know we spoke recently on your podcast, which we’ll talk more about as we move forward. But I’d love to welcome you here today and invite you to introduce yourself.

Rob Maloney Likewise, Kim, it’s an absolute pleasure to continue this conversation. I also spoke with Kathleen Taylor, who recently talked with you and then she was on my podcast, too. So it’s, it’s a pleasure to be here and to have the chance to continue this conversation.

Kim Meninger I love how we’re starting our own little community. And it was so great to hear from Kathleen. And now she and I are going to be talking on my podcast. It’s just wonderful how we’re able to connect in this new worlds. So tell us about yourself.

Rob Maloney Yeah, the overlap of the mission is really, is really special. So a little bit about me. I am just, I like to think of myself as voicing that growth mindset. And it’s kind of what the persona has been throughout the podcast that I started called Heart and Hard Work. I am someone who is not particularly talented in anything specifically. I’d never seen myself as being extraordinary in any, in any given capacity except for hustle and hard work. And I’ve never been the biggest, the fastest, the strongest. And for all that, that translated from sports that now has led me to just take on every opportunity that I can, and someone that, that I really strive to not take today for granted and believe that tomorrow is promised. So how can we do the most with our time today to make the most meaningful interactions and experiences with the people we love and care about?

Kim Meninger And I would say that makes you extraordinary, right? Because…

Rob Maloney Perhaps, right? I told the joke. Like jokingly, one time I was like, I’ve never been cool by any, like, standard definition. I’m always like, just doing my own thing. But it’s almost like, you go so far in a full circle, that you’re not cool to the point that you, maybe that is what is cool. I don’t know. That’s about all I can justify it to myself.

Kim Meninger Oh, I love that. And you talk about the growth mindset. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? How did you get to this place where you think about the world in this way? Because not everybody does. And I think sometimes those of us who live and breathe these concepts on a regular basis can often take them for granted. But I want to understand, have you always had this perspective? Was there a turning point? How did you get here?

Rob Maloney Yeah, I think that to understand that, which is what I’m often trying to do, really understand not only my brain but the human brain and how that, how our experience has shaped who we are, the way that we think just being really metacognitive. And that’s led to a lot of reflection. And I think it goes back to my experience as a really young child growing up, and everybody has traumas and hardships. And I think that just a lot of the pressures and things that you feel growing up, they led me to have a very fixed view of the world and kind of my place and the niche that you find from, from childhood. And it led me also to think about just I am always going to be stuck this way. Like, I’m probably never going to be rich enough to be able to walk around the streets and give people money and like, quote-unquote, make a difference by being super rich. And even the people that become super rich, it’s often like, that’s not what you spend your time doing anyway. You’re always searching, you’re always craving, you’re desiring more and more and more, but I don’t know, I wanted to be able to make an impact, and to do something meaningful for the people I love and care about on the way and to be able to, you know, kind of, to really understand it quickly. Like kind of be the change that you want to see in the world. Like to embody that and really try to live every day and make a better life for myself than the one that I had growing up and sort of honor the sacrifices of family members and people who loved and cared and supported you and dealt with you when you were being a knucklehead kid and things like that. So to really find a way to make my own life better and life better for the people around me. And to go back and forth by not thinking, I’m going to make it big and then help people I want to. I want to make it big because I helped people and sort of master that skill and become so good at whatever I can do to help other people and make the people around me better than that. Because that in itself becomes a marketable skill.

Kim Meninger Wow, that’s so inspiring. Because it’s so easy to imagine that, when you’re a kid, you’re not thinking about how do I make it rich so I can help people like you said, it’s more so how can I make it rich so I can own multiple houses across the world? So that you know I can have more things? And so it’s really inspiring to hear you talk about using your wealth in service of others.

Rob Maloney Oh, thank you. I mean, as a kid, I think I was often thinking about things that most kids probably aren’t. I know there were several times when I like for, forego, I forgoed I’m not sure what the past tense is but forgoed my allowance so that my family could, you know, get groceries and I tell my dad like, Okay, you can pay me back in the future. And I think I had like a running tab at once, it was like $5 a week. And I think it was up to like, $380. It’s been a while since. But I was like, one day, I’m gonna get paid more money. I didn’t fully understand interest at that point. But yeah, I remember just thinking about a lot of things as a kid and trying to like, like, I never imagined being on a plane, when I was a kid, I thought that was something only like millionaires could do. In fact, there were even, there were school field trips that I didn’t even tell my parents about, because I was worried that, that, that, where’s that money gonna come from, we needed that to be able to pay the rent. I was, I was worried about getting kicked out of our house and then not being able to see my friends and kind of like, the pressure of every little mistake, and how that might impact my family. I think that that is something that became very instilled in me from a very young age. And where that might have been traumatic to me growing up, it did shape who I am, and now I, in reflection and kind of labeling it and facing it, I can, can use that as a, as a superpower. It’s, it’s truly created an empathy and an understanding of people’s issues and people’s traumas. I think that everybody is everybody’s fighting a battle. And it’s like, it’s, it’s whether there’s no point in comparing it because it’s just, it’s what it feels like to you. And to understand that what you’re going through is hard to you is has been really a foundational platform for my empathy and my compassion and the way that I strive to have, build relationships and lead.

Kim Meninger And I so appreciate your sharing that. And I would say there are some similarities to my story. I grew up with a single mom and we had a lot of financial pressures, and you grow up a lot faster than other people around you. You don’t have the luxury of just being carefree when you have to worry about money issues when you’re young. And but I really love how you talk about it as a path towards greater empathy. And I kind of see myself in that too. I think that the, the traumatic nature of it is obviously not, it’s real, and it’s not pleasant. But as cliche as it sounds, it does build character, right? You are able to put yourself in the shoes of other people around you. And I’m curious, like, how does that empathy play out today now as an adult, right, like, how do you see yourself in relationship to other people around you?

Rob Maloney Yeah, that’s a great point. Because I mean, growing up, it was like this, that, that pressure that you talked about, and creates the pressure, and I definitely felt that on more than one occasion. And then, every time something challenging was going on, and I tried to just kind of push it away, push it down, and just continue to be upbeat, and positive. It led me to just kind of just this life is hard, like whatever, like no one cares about you. Like figure it out, keep smiling, keep laughing, keep making everybody happy. And I think in the ever-ongoing process of maturing because I don’t believe there’s such thing as maturity. It’s just, it’s just constantly learning from experiences, and years and years of getting in trouble for my impulsivity and ADHD kind of popping out and like, ah, then I’d get myself in trouble. And then I’d be upset. So it’s a cyclical loop. But what I’ve come to learn is that to make a distinction between traumas, you know, there’s, there’s big T traumas, little T traumas and excuses. And that’s, that’s not a distinction that I was cognizant of as a kid. That’s not something that gets spoken about enough, especially with men, to be able to break that down. And I do that I tried to do it for myself to be able to break down, is this a big T trauma? Is this a little T trauma, and is this an excuse? Most of the time, it probably is an excuse, but there are some things that you can classify it as objectively, the those are really hard things, and I should not be trying to push through them. I should not be trying to make it happen. Still, I should give myself time, give myself grace, have an understanding. And most of the reason I’ve been able to come to that reflection of myself is, is the amount of times I want to be there to support people around me. And when I hear, we hear the story in someone else, and we’re like, oh, that’s so like, that’s, that’s hard. Make sure you take the time that you need. But for myself, like would I give myself that grace? Would I give myself that opportunity in that space to feel it? Or would I be like No, I have to work harder push through this, go to the gym. You know what, ignore it, ignore it like I’m fine. Keep smiling, keep being happy, because that was, that was a dead-end path.

Kim Meninger Hmm. You’re making me think about some themes that have come up recently in my conversations on the show. And that is kind of where we get our personal power. And I think that a lot of times it seems binary, right? That there’s the camp of people who will live in a victim mentality, we’ll always find excuses for why their lives are terrible and it’s everyone else’s fault. Right? And then there are people who are really intentional about it. not pointing the finger and taking personal responsibility and you know, not wanting to dwell too much like you’re saying of, you know, you are not giving themselves the kind of grace that you’re talking about, right? And so what I’m really interested in what you’re saying is that I think that you can sort of, there’s space for both in a healthy way. Because if you don’t acknowledge the hardship, if you don’t acknowledge the, the capital T trauma, or the lowercase trauma, however you want to think about it, it not only makes it harder for you because you’re not processing what’s already there anyway. But to your point, it also makes it a lot harder to be the resource that you want to be to the people around you who also struggle.

Rob Maloney Absolutely. And it would just be, it would just be really hypocritical, like a small anecdote, I love to I’m a, I’m a learner of golf. And I often invite out many friends who’ve never played before, especially my MBA program to come out and learn men, women, international students who never really had a chance just to give them the exposure and just to know how much it means to be able to play with someone who’s played before. And now I’m not particularly good, but I love coming out with with the new, new players, because I’m able to impart some wisdom on to them and be able to part like, Hey, I know, some tips and things that have helped me tremendously from the people have helped me give these shots. And then here I am telling them like, you know, don’t, you know, be, be easy on yourself. Like, don’t, don’t take it too, too seriously. Because it’s a hard game. It’s really challenging. And then I turn around, and I make a mistake classically because I’m, you know, not a very good golfer. And I’m like, am I really about to get mad at myself when I’m here, like telling them all, like, Don’t give yourself grace, don’t be mad at yourself. Like, it’s just the take the next swing and move on and sort of have that resilience to not let every little, every little bump in the road, keep you down and drag you down. So that’s just like a really tangible, like, wake-up call to me, like, you know, stop telling people stuff. Don’t give people advice, if you’re not willing to take it yourself. You know, I can’t be telling people, I one thing I tried to not do as much is not give advice, or it’s not warranted. But when people are looking for advice, it’s like, Hmm, maybe I should listen to myself a little bit more.

Kim Meninger That’s a really good point. I’m curious. And I don’t want to make you the spokesperson for all men here. But I am curious because stereotypically, men have a harder time with not feeling confident and strong. And it’s not as socially acceptable for men to be vulnerable, right? And to talk about some of these things. And so I’m curious how have, how has it felt for you to navigate your world as a male? How do you feel different from your friends in terms of how you think about these things? Do they? Do they think you’re crazy? Do they agree? Like, is there a generational component to this? I’m curious, like how you feel in relationship to your peers.

Rob Maloney Yeah, I also agree, I don’t know if I can be a spokesperson for all men, but I hope and or a role model, but just to offer perspective on what’s helped me and I think to come full circle, it’s leaning into that growth mindset and realizing how powerful it is. I think I’ve, I’ve spent so many of my younger years, kind of in the foo role, especially in school growing up. I was class clown, always making jokes, I always wanted to make people happy always wanted to be and I thought that that was the best way to support people. And that’s the best way that I could offer value everywhere I went. And it almost that was part of my identity. And so I spent years getting more and more comfortable being silly and distinguishing people laughing at me and with me. And maybe there’s plenty of times they were laughing at me too. But it didn’t matter. As long as people were enjoying themselves and having fun. I think that that unlocked for me a great ability to not care about looking like a fool. And more than ever, especially with the podcast, and especially leaning into being willing to make mistakes, and understand that I’m gonna learn from these. Like, I walked into my internship, I walked into my first day of work, and I’m like, hey, yeah, I’m here. Don’t worry, I’m going to make some mistakes. I’m going to, I’m going to fail so fast. But I’m going to learn even faster, in like this, this, like growth mindset, exponential growth of my ability to quickly in that resiliency, emotional intelligence to quickly bounce back and say, No, I’m learning from this. I’m moving on. Like, I’m not going to make this mistake again. And I’m going to progress. And so it comes from that, not, not being afraid to look like a fool because I have had so much experience looking like a fool and then getting to the other side of it and realizing that the uncomfortability and then we hear the cliches like be comfortable being uncomfortable. Oh my god, I lived my whole life uncomfortable. So you almost forget what comfortable feels like for me. And so I don’t think that that’s the norm. But I would say it’s helped me tremendously to be able to let go to realize and then allow times, you know, we talk about men like challenges and men like to solve problems. And to build that growth mindset, I would say, the biggest challenge for me was to also realize that not everyone needed just laugh and just joy and just positivity all the time. That for me, to get to the next level of what I wanted to do in my ability to support people around me, and my ability to show up for the people I care about, was to actually look inward and do that deep reflective work and care more about being able to show up on a personal and intimate level and not just always be laughing and to be able to have empathy and to be able to sit comfortably and just be what that person might need in the moment. I mean, one, I’ll just one last analogy to solidified. Have you ever seen the movie Inside Out? Yeah. So I feel like that story that was like a documentary about the inside of my brain, just like Joy wanting to solve everything and every little problem going on. But understanding like, you really need to have a full grasp of emotional intelligence, otherwise, I’m not going to be able to be the person that I want to be. And so the harder thing for me that challenge in itself was to be actually more emotionally, like emotionally intelligent to invest more in emotions besides just joy.

Kim Meninger Hmm. It’s so, it’s so fascinating to listen to you talk about this because I just think that we’re at a time when we really need more people to be thinking about themselves in these more holistic ways. And I think workplaces have historically made it feel unsafe to move beyond a very truncated range of motion. And those emotions might be different for men or for women, right? And so I wonder, you talk about the experience you’ve had throughout your life that has made you more comfortable in these uncomfortable situations. But when you’re in the average workplace, do you question whether it’s safe to express more than just joy? Like, do you? Do you feel like you have to adapt your style based on the workplace cultural norms? Do you see any…

Rob Maloney Yeah, absolutely. It’s like I can’t, and I adapted, but I’m also, again, people think I’m a fool, especially when I walk into a room and I’m big smile, and like, I want people to be uplifted and have, I often get told I have a lot of energy. I like to think I have enthusiasm because enthusiasm is energy plus purpose. Because energy is not contagious. But enthusiasm is because if people can understand there’s a purpose, then they can get behind it. But energy by itself is just like, you know, it’s, it’s 7:30 in the morning, shut up until like, that doesn’t spread. And in fact, that’s just like, shut up. And so I really try to be intentional and have that intentionality. And a lot of that requires knowing when and where. I think that’s also core to comedy, like comedy is all about timing. And so building relationships, comedy is really important. I don’t feel like all emotions are welcomed, mostly because they haven’t been… I mean, if you can just test that by asking someone, how are you? Thinking you’re gonna get, you’re never gonna get like the real answer. It’s just that feeler, it’s the throwaway question, but it’s like, Are we safe to have a conversation right now? And then there’s only like, two responses like, Mmm, good, or like, work, you know, just what the what? So a big premise of my podcast is like, how do we ask better questions? And often, we get so hung up on like, am I going to ask the wrong question? And isn’t that like, you know, there’s, there’s some safe questions that you can ask, and would you rather kind of things like, a lot of times I throw out the silly questions like in our hot seat, like, would you rather have sweet potatoes, regular potatoes? Or, you know, would you rather have crunchy tacos or soft tacos? And at first, people are like, what? But then like, 99% of the time after they, it leads them to say something after, it just opens up an invitation to say it’s the process of building trust, a little bit of vulnerability, a little bit of even just a teaser of a question. Like, ah, you know, like, I like crunchy tacos. But the thing about my dad, he always used to… It’s like, now we’re building a relationship. And so that’s why I love to have constant thinking about how to ask better questions.

Kim Meninger So tell us more about the podcast because I want to hear how, you know, obviously, I had the privilege of being able to be a guest on your podcast, but how did you get there? What, what made you decide I want to take this to a podcast forum?

Rob Maloney For sure. I think it was absolute pleasure. We had such a great conversation. It just was years and years of bottled-up experiences and just thinking like I want someone to talk about this more and on a daily basis. Just people don’t have time and don’t, don’t sit, I have some really fantastic conversations with people all over the world. At this point, I’ve been to over 45 countries, I lived in China for two and a half years before COVID. And then I got to do some more traveling and reuniting with friends all over the world. And that is not because I’m rich, that’s not because I’m famous. Clearly, it’s because of a really big focus on building relationships and putting people first. And so I wanted to find a way to continue conversations like that, beyond fixed constructs, beyond just like needing to be one-on-one and just try to make those conversations available to people everywhere. Because it’s not even that people don’t have access to people that they can talk to — mentorship, resources, networking. But they also don’t even know how. Like I, this is 12 plus years of trying to self-development to try to work on myself and work out the voice of my inner critic, as well as how I can be helpful to my dad and my mom who has various different health conditions throughout my life growing up, like how can I be more supportive and be an asset everywhere I go, and just learning how I can augment myself to be a multiplier leader and walk into a room and make everyone else around me better. And that’s what the goal has been now and to be able to share these conversations is really like the premise is how much can a 30-minute conversation, change your life, your actions, your mindset, you know, to be able to do this on a podcast, and share conversations that you can access anytime, anywhere in the world. And you can learn from it, emulate it, find the other people by we created the LinkedIn community page where people can go to it to continue the conversation, find more people that want to think like you and want to share those conversations with you. Because it’s like you said, I don’t think everyone thinks the same way that we do. And it’s unfortunate, I don’t think it’s because they don’t want to, I think it’s because they don’t know how. And so rather than spending my whole life thinking like, I wish things were different as like, let’s get this started. And so the podcast itself was intended to be a metaphor being that it was going to progress, it was going to change. And it was going to be about people who are progressing and who are changing. It was originally called Witness Evolution. And the premise was you get to witness the behind-the-scenes, the process, people reflecting people talking about their challenges and how they’re persevering through them, and what it’s like to learn how to become a leader and learn from mistakes and just, just get better and better. And you can see we ever go to the podcast, people always like to go to the first episode, and the first episode is called Just Get Started. Go. And it’s too it’s like, awesome to think about the progress because we’ve come so far from then it’s like I wish people would also like, go to the most recent episode, because it’s so much better and no knock against where we were. It’s just where we were years ago, there was lack of, lack of preparation, my ability as a host was limited. I didn’t know how to how to as well how to transition from thought to thought. And it wasn’t as smooth, but it was great. And I think it really still was good, good content. So I’m really proud of to be a year later, still working on this passion project and involving people and getting to have conversations with amazing leaders like yourself,

Kim Meninger I love that, it’s so much, it’s very much in the vein of be the change you want to see, right? Because I think that’s, that’s very similar to why I started this podcast to write, I want to have the conversations I want to have. And I want to have them in a way that other people can access because they may not know how to have the conversation as well. And I wonder because you have so much positive energy and you have such a service mindset. And on the one hand, I think that can be a real confidence booster because I truly believe that our greatest confidence comes from feeling like we are using our strengths and services ourselves. On the other hand, it can feel like a lot of responsibility too. And I wonder if you feel pressure sometimes like how do you handle your own self-doubt?

Rob Maloney Yeah, know for sure. And I think what you’re talking about is like alignment, and really like you have. And that’s it more so than ever, especially in the past three months, I’ve really felt a strong sense of alignment because what I’m doing is so core to what I’ve wanted to do and to be able to articulate and express feelings that I’ve had different parts of the brain, there’s a whole new, whole more podcasts that come for the for that. But to be able to actually express what you’re feeling, it takes different parts of the brain and different levels of emotional intelligence. So to be able to be having the conversations and it adds a lot of pressure, because you have a great sense of responsibility, knowing that there’s more that you can do, but trying to find solace in it. And also like, well, I don’t know if I’ll ever make it so big that I can just give away money or make like make a change and quote-unquote people think about impact and changing the world like in one fell swoop. I don’t know if I’ll ever make it there. But if tomorrow is not promised, I want every day along the way to be that most impactful that I could make it and so I can try to go to bed at night and sleep well at night. And I think that that also, I can’t say that I sleep well all the time because I’m often thinking like, damn, there’s more I could have done I gotta do this, I gotta tie up dad, I gotta send that email. And it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s definitely that level of thought and pressure just, just constantly circulate. So, for me, I think every day I wake up is like a new chance to start fresh, and like, Alright, let’s go get more today. And it’s the relationships and the interactions that I have with people that really keep me grounded. And that’s, I think, why I love having the conversation and getting to celebrate and highlight other people because it really makes me feel like I’ve done good. And I’ve used my time, I’ve used my energy, and I’ve used my ability well.

Kim Meninger I have a question for you. Now that you’re saying that because I think I’m going back to what you were saying before about how there are a lot of people who just don’t know how to have these conversations. And I think it’s a really important point. And I think now that we are in this new world that continues to change, but you know, is this hybrid or a virtual type of work? Format, has brought with it many benefits. But for people who have historically struggled with the connection to other people, I think this has created an even greater obstacle. And so I’m wondering if you have thoughts on like, what’s step one for people who are listening to us and thinking, oh, gosh, I want more of that personal connection, I really want to feel like I can have these conversations. But I don’t even know where to begin, is there a starting point that you would recommend?

Rob Maloney I think the starting point would be the micro-reflection to realize to yourself, like, wow, other people have this same feeling as me of wanting to connect. And I think that were for myself, too. That was a massive realization, like in college, like when you walk into the lunchroom or in like, Who do I sit with no one and. And I was like, You know what, in general, people usually want to connect, and obviously, nine times out of 10 people are willing to connect, and they just they’re not sure how or when. So they just kind of they, they fall down, like they fall into line or more or less like because of uncertainty. And then they don’t want to break from that. They don’t want to risk looking like a fool for that 5% of the time. And as I said, at this point, if you want to think I’m a fool, I have enough schooling and education and master’s degrees to say like, I don’t really, don’t care what you think. You’re just projecting something of your own. But to just to think like people, other people want to connect, and it just takes someone who’s willing to start that connection, someone who’s willing to ask a question, someone who’s willing to say, Hey, how are you? And say, like, hey, you know, like, like, oh, I noticed you have a, you know, an emblem, whatever it might be. Oh, that’s a cool university, like, I’m a fan of as well, like, people want to connect, and it’s just a matter of, is someone going to be willing to ask one little question to get started? It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it usually leads to the better question and the better connections.

Kim Meninger That is so well said because that is exactly how I feel, too that if you err on the side of believing that people want to connect the vast majority of the time, you’re going to have a positive experience. And in a very small percentage of the time where maybe somebody doesn’t respond the way you want them to, to your point that tells you far more about them than it does about yourself. It’s doesn’t mean that you’ve done anything wrong, or that you need to feel guilt or shame, it just means that maybe that person hasn’t, you know, gotten themselves together yet to be capable…

Rob Maloney Or that they’re having a tough day. Like that probably is more often that because I’ll like have those bad interactions. And this is like the full disclosure part like that does happen, right? The, the one out of 10 times or the one out of 20 times and you’re like, Wow, I feel like the biggest idiot in the world, and I hate myself and I’m gonna go sit in the corner quietly, I’m actually not gonna eat my food anymore. I’m just actually going to leave, I’m going home. You feel terrible. And, but it’s, it’s just so not permanent until walking to the next person. And then you start having a conversation and then what whoever it might be. So it’s just like, just, we can learn, I think it was from How to Win Friends and Influence People. And just like we can learn so much about connecting with people from the greatest connectors in the world. Dogs, just when they come into the room, they’re just smiling, they’re happy. They’re just glad to be around you. And if you can radiate that kind of personality with the people if you’re just happy to be around the people that you’re with, and you can learn from them and look at those as opportunities and really not take them for granted. Just being around people and celebrating that whether it’s asking a simple question. It to me that that’s like we have so much to learn from dogs plus I love dogs.

Kim Meninger I do too. So I’m getting some thinking because you’ve said so many really powerful things. What’s the biggest thing you hope people take away from this conversation?

Rob Maloney I would say the biggest thing I hope people take away from this conversation is, probably don’t be afraid to look like a fool, because people are going to make like there’s so many different cliches, but people are going to make their assumptions and their judgments about you no matter what. Stay focused, I think we love Brene Brown. I think both of us stay focused on caring about what the right people think, and, and take solace in that because it’s so easy to get caught up in the opinions of everybody else, and just nonsense and crap. But when the more that you can stay focused on surrounding yourself with the right people, the people whose opinions you care about, and the people who, who uplift you continuously write putting yourself in the right environment, stay focused on what they think, don’t take advice of like, don’t care what anyone thinks. Because since it’s incomplete, just don’t care about what people whose opinions don’t matter, think and stay close to the people who, who really do see you the way that you want to be seen and witnessed the best qualities and you and who can bring them out of you.

Kim Meninger I think that’s incredibly wise advice. So where can people find you, Rob, they want to hear the podcast or learn more about you?

Rob Maloney For sure. The podcast is on Spotify, Apple, all the major platforms. And if you want to stay plugged into the community, you can go to LinkedIn, Heart and Hard Work podcast and like And yeah, we would love to be able to continue the conversations and just to have people feel included and get to reflect and share, share those reflections for reflecting and strengthening if anyone wants to be on the podcast as well and has an interesting mindset perspective that they’d love to share. We’re very open to that as well.

Kim Meninger That’s wonderful. So I’ll link to all of that in the show notes as well, so that anybody who’s looking can find you easily. And I’m going to join that LinkedIn group right after we’re done here.

Rob Maloney Awesome. That’s great. Yeah, so we there’s already been a lot of buzz about your episode. So we’re glad to be glad to have hosted you. And now it’s a pleasure to close this, this chapter as well. Being a guest on your podcast, you do an amazing job. And I know the thoughts and the mindset to what goes into hosting. So it’s cool to be on the other side and get a chance to do the a lot more of the expression part and I’m just grateful, really, really grateful to have had the opportunity, Kim.

Kim Meninger Well, thank you so much, Rob. It was truly my pleasure.

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