In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about making career transitions. My guest this week, Danielle McCombs, shares her story of having transitioned from a 20-year career in the commercial real estate industry to an entrepreneur. She talks about the ways in which a growth mindset helped her to manage the fears associated with making a change and take the risks needed to step into a more fulfilling role. We also talk about how we can all leverage the growth mindset to more confidently step outside of our comfort zones and achieve our goals.
About My Guest
Danielle McCombs is a growth minded individual that is constantly striving to improve herself and deepen the understanding of the world around her.
Danielle is a native New Yorker that relocated to San Francisco in 2016.
After a 20-year career in commercial real estate Danielle decided to pursue her passion of inspiring others to be the best version of themselves. Danielle is a Co-Active Training Institute Certified coach and has started her own Life Coaching practice, Danielle McCombs Coaching.
Danielle hosts the podcast “The Opposite of Small Talk”, with her friend Kristy Olinger where they explore topics about personal and professional development focusing on connection, reflection and social justice.
Connect with Danielle McCombs:
Website: https://daniellemccombs.com/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellemccombs/ The Opposite of Small Talk on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theoppositeofsmalltalk/ The Opposite of Small Talk Website: https://www.theoppositeofsmalltalk.com/
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Kim Meninger Danielle, it’s so great to see you. Again, thank you so much for being here. I’d love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Danielle McCombs Well, Kim, thanks so much for having me, I’m really excited to be here. So, I am Danielle McCombs. I am a native New Yorker who currently resides in San Francisco. I spent 20 years of my career in commercial real estate, and just over a year ago made a transition to be a life coach. And, it has been an amazing ride so far and has been really exciting, just the journey that I’ve been on. For myself, I’m learning so much about myself, and then learning how to help others on their journey as well.
Kim Meninger So I want to tackle both sides of this, I really want to understand having spent 20 years in the commercial real estate space, which I’m gonna make an assumption that is, in some ways, male-dominated, right? What was that experience? Like for you? How was? How did it feel to be a woman in that space? And what are you aware of things that you did to try to help you through some of those challenges?
Danielle McCombs For sure. So I started my career at a nonprofit, and I was there for nine years, and the nonprofit was a diverse workplace with many women running the organization. It was my first experience outside of college. And I just thought this was how the world was, like, Oh, this is great look, women or empower people of color and power. This is just, and it was a great place to be. And part of that was it was in the nonprofit space, which attracts more people of color and women. But I didn’t know that because this was really my first corporate experience. And I grew up there, I was there for nine years. While I was there, I went to NYU and I got my master’s in, in real estate, which was definitely a heavily male-dominated program. But I still was in this like bubble of like, oh, this is great, like, everybody’s so different here. And then I left and I moved to a company that was almost all men, predominantly Orthodox Jewish men, the company was run by. And so there was a whole lot of different things, there was like one being the minority as a woman, being the minority as not being Jewish. And then just being in this other part of the, like, the industry, it was very, it was very jarring for sure. When I got there, I, I, it took a long time. And I don’t know that I ever got used to it, but I just kind of was in it. And so when you’re in it, you can’t really tell what’s going on. And then I left. And I realized how weird that environment was, and how I was one of the only women at the level that I was at. So there wasn’t a lot of there wasn’t a lot of women around me. So you did you felt like you didn’t belong, you know, I felt like I didn’t belong on different many different levels. But I was good at my job. But I also didn’t necessarily, certainly always feel that way. Because I didn’t look like everyone else. And there wasn’t the same respect there that there was for men in the industry.
Kim Meninger So you, you were good at your job, right? You stayed there for a while. How did you get through it? Were you consciously thinking about this? Were you doing anything to try to manage your own experience? Like how did you make it through?
Danielle McCombs I, when I look back now I realized I was like white-knuckling it the whole way through. And it was such an, it was an experience of, you know, I’d wake up in the morning to emails, I’d go to work, I’d be you know, on conference calls all day, I would stay there really late working on spreadsheets, working on deals, go home, like there were nights that I was at the office till 11 o’clock at night, and would get up and come back the next day. And that somehow became like a norm. And there was a point where I looked at myself and was like, Who are you? This isn’t who you are this. I was never a person that was super career driven that this was the thing that I wanted. I just ended up there. And there was definitely a point where I woke up one day and was like, What are you doing? Like, this isn’t the life you want to lead? You’re working on Sundays. This isn’t you know, working six days a week, you’re totally stressed out. For what? And then I got a phone call from a recruiter that was calling me to tell me he had this job in San Francisco to work for a startup. And I will say the first couple times he called I kind of ignored him. And then I feel like he caught me on a day where I had just had it. It was like a Friday afternoon and I was exhausted. And he called him and said, Just give me 10 minutes of your time. And so I talked to him, and he told me about the startup in San Francisco and how this could be such an amazing opportunity. And that was a moment that really just changed things for me because I could see different possibilities. And it was a lot, you know, at first my thought, too, was I’m not moving to San Francisco, like my entire life is in New York. I’m from New York, my family’s here, my friends are here. But it sparked this thing inside of me of why not? Why can’t I do that? And it took months it took, I mean, I think I spoke to him the first time was in July of 2015, I didn’t move to San Francisco to April of 2016. But starting those conversations, and just starting the past, the idea of the possibility that there’s something else out there. And I will also say I was sold the dream of working for a startup of you know, in a couple years, it’ll IPO and you’ll be a millionaire. And spoiler alert, I’m not a millionaire. But it was just it opened this opportunity for me to do something different. And it was a way to kind of go into a different part of the world that I was excited for. And not just, not just California, but like a different part of like the real estate industry of being in a startup and the excitement of that. I learned a lot while I was there, too. It’s not all that exciting sometimes, but it made me make this move and come to a different a whole different world that I live in out here.
Kim Meninger I think that there’s a really important lesson in what you just said. And that is take the call, unless you know for a fact that it is absolutely not a fit, and you know, doesn’t look legitimate or something like that. Even if you think you’re 100% happy in the job that you’re in, take the call because you just don’t know what you don’t know, right? And so I always think of it as the at the very least, if you decide it’s not for you, and you want to stay where you are, it reinforces that you’re in the right place, now you have additional data to support that. But we get so narrowly focused on where we are in to your point, right? Like, we just assume that this is the way the world operates, we don’t necessarily have a lot of diverse experience in how different workplaces function and we take at face value that certain things have to be the way they are. And, you know, until we know, otherwise, we may be staying in a place that’s not the right fit.
Danielle McCombs Right. And if you would have asked me eight years ago, and told me that I would be living in San Francisco, and I would be starting my own business. And I would have told you, you were insane. Because I couldn’t see it. I this was my world and my world was so narrowly focused. And now that I’ve made these changes, and there’s been a lot of them. But I’m more open to making the change when you make the first move. The next one isn’t as scary and packing up my life and moving across the country was really was really scary. But I can’t imagine my world. I can’t imagine my world without it now.
Kim Meninger So now that you’re not there anymore, you, you’re gonna stay in San Francisco?
Danielle McCombs Um, I mean, hopefully, my mom’s not listening to this. But for the foreseeable future. Yeah, I’ve been here for almost seven years now. And I, when I came out here, I figured it would be like a two to three-year experiment. And I don’t know where else I belong right now. This feels like it’s where I’m supposed to be.
Kim Meninger Wow. And so let’s start the life coaching. How do you get from commercial real estate to life coaching?
Danielle McCombs So I, part of this is, and then part of this journey started you. I was introduced to you by my friend Christie, who I host the podcast, The Opposite of Small Talk with. And that was another thing that just opened my worlds. And so starting this podcast with Christie, I changed the way that I saw the world as well. I wasn’t a podcast, or I didn’t know anything about that. But she asked me to do this project with her and it has turned into my favorite thing to do. Where we get to talk to all these different people about personal and professional growth. And a lot of the people that we talked to were coaches. And their story was very similar and I would imagine you can relate to the story as well was, I did the things I had the job I had the title I had the money and I wasn’t fulfilled. This wasn’t what it was. And all of these people had made the pivot into coaching in some way, and speaking and workshops, and writing books and TED talks, and all of these things that we were talking to these people. And it sounded so exciting to me. And so that kind of just opened up this other world to me. And then I hired my own coach because I realized there’s something else out there. But I don’t know what it is. And I’ve been in this world for so long, I need someone else to help me see the other possibilities. And so in June of 2021, I started working with a coach. And pretty quickly, I realized, I want to do what you do. And so all of the things that he was helping me see about myself, and helping me realize that the realizations that I was coming to were so powerful, and were changing the way that I was seeing the world and the way that I was interacting with the world, that I was like, everybody needs this, and I want to help people do it. So I, I, I left my job, kind of, I sometimes can be an impulsive person and figured like, this is what I want to do now. And I have to do it. And so I left my job at the beginning of 2022. And started taking classes through the coactive Training Institute CTI and received my certification earlier this year. So I went through the process pretty quickly took all their classes, and then went through their certification process. And I started taking on clients last year, and it has been so rewarding, just to be able to help people see themselves the way they really are, and not the way that the lens that they’re looking through it, and see the possibilities that are there. And that’s the thing that’s helped me is being able to see the possibilities. Like I said, if you said to me eight years ago, you’d be living in California. And my brain couldn’t handle that. Because my brain was like you’re a New Yorker, you live in New York, that’s what you do. This is who you are. And now there’s possibility like when you said, Are you going to live in, you know, here for? Is this where you’re going to be like, I don’t know, like for right now. Yes, that my answer is always for right now. But I can see the possibility of living somewhere else, like moving abroad or moving, you know. So just, I think taking the action, but then also being open to the possibilities of what’s really out there has been exciting.
Kim Meninger Well, and you’re making me think about too because I know you and Christie are both big on growth mindset. Right? So tell me how that fits into this conversation.
Danielle McCombs Yeah, so I and I will, I’ll credit Christie was really introducing me to this topic, because that was one of the things that she kept talking about as we started the podcast. And once I realized what that really is, is your confidence and your ability to learn doesn’t mean that you know everything, it doesn’t mean that you have to know everything, which is actually the best part of growth mindset, it like frees you from feeling that you need to know everything. And I think when I think back of the first time I really found a growth mindset it was when I moved to San Francisco, being a lifelong New Yorker, part of your thing of being in New York, as you know where everything is in New York, and you know how to get everywhere, you know, where everything is, you know, where the best restaurants are, you know, each neighborhood all of these things. And if you don’t you make it up because you don’t want anybody to think that you’re not a real New Yorker. And then I moved to San Francisco, and I didn’t know where anything was, because I had visited here a few times, but I did not live here. So I, you know, had to ask people, where was the grocery store? And wait, what do you mean by the Presidio, or like just different things that I just didn’t know. And I still, I’m still learning. But it gave me the opportunity to ask the questions and not feel bad about it, not feel and about anything, anything that went on here, not just the city, right? About the people where people lived, what they did out here, and it was so freeing because I could start with a beginner’s mindset because I was a beginner. And so not trying to look, not trying to look smart, not trying to pretend that I know anything. And it was such a gift, and such freedom into just, you know, knowing that I can learn things. Anything. Right, and that’s, I think that’s making this change into you know, a whole new career is I don’t, I don’t know much about running a business. I’m gonna learn it and I’m capable of learning it.
Kim Meninger Yeah, I mean, that’s I love to hear you say that because one of the things I think about a lot and you know, I have had periods in my life when I’ve been much more perfectionistic I do not consider myself a perfectionist at all. I definitely have embraced growth mindset and much more willing to sort of be, be a risk taker, but I think for so many of us, especially those of us who are high achievers, and always really valued doing well in school and doing well at work. When that is such a strong value of ours, we end up curating our lives in such a way that we only do the things that were guaranteed to do well. And in order to feel like we’re guaranteed to do it well, it has to be something that’s comfortable to us, it has to be something that’s familiar to us, right, it can’t be too far outside of our comfort zone. And so we end up making our worlds really small, we end up closing ourselves off to opportunities that may be fantastic, but we’ll never know. Because that’s, we can’t, we can’t guarantee that we can do it. And so I love the growth mindset in connection to everything that we’re talking about. Because it does for you to be a beginner, it reminds us we’ve been beginners our whole lives and different things, right? Like I always say to people, nothing that you do well, or take for granted today, were you born with. Every single thing that you do, without even thinking about it was one scary and new. But here we are. And so whether it’s moving across the country, as you’re describing or quitting your job, and starting your own business like all of these things require a certain level of faith in yourself a certain level of self-trust that even if I don’t know exactly what this is going to look like, I know myself well enough to know that I have the resourcefulness and the capacity to figure it out.
Danielle McCombs 100% and I, I’m just thinking I was with a friend last night who asked me, you know, how’s business going? How are things? What’s going on? And I had, I was just really honest, you know, sometimes this is really hard. And I’m kind of, I need some more clients, right? Like, just, just I was being really honest with her. And she was talking about, you know, being an entrepreneur and what that means and how, you know, it’s really uncomfortable. So she’s like, so are you, are you comfortable with that? And I think then, I guess I’m, I’m comfortable being uncomfortable. But it’s just uncomfortable, but it’s just what it is. That’s just the status quo now is everything is kind of uncomfortable. But I don’t want it to, I don’t want to fall back into that comfort place. Because it means that I feel like I’m not growing, I’m not, you know, you’re not moving ahead. And I mean, as I say this, too, it’s like and then and I will admit there are days where I curl up on the couch just for comfort because you need that to It’s not every day can’t be uncomfortable. So it’s part of it’s a balance of figuring that out. But it, yeah, I think growing is uncomfortable.
Kim Meninger That’s such a good point. Because finding that balance is really important. I definitely am somebody who pressures myself to do scary things, because I know how easy it is for me to fall into my comfort zone. And so when things are going really smoothly, that’s a signal to me that I need to think about doing something more challenging, I have to introduce fear or, or risk into my life, but you don’t want to overwhelm yourself. And definitely taking care of yourself when you need just, I just need a break is really important too. And, and I’m curious how you’re navigating the roller coaster of entrepreneurship and just being in this totally different space. Because I also think, coming from a world that’s very structured, where you come into work every day, you’ve got a to-do list that’s a mile long, you’ve got people that you know, you’re going to be talking with, and you can ask for help, like, all of a sudden, you’re thrust into this world that has no structure, you’re making it up as you go along. How do you handle the certain mindset side of that?
Danielle McCombs Hmm, well, it’s, it’s an everyday battle. For sure. I think the thing that keeps me going is knowing that the work that I’m doing is what I’m supposed to be doing, that feels so aligned with who I am, that when I you know, meet with a client, or I, you know, I had an ending session with a client the other day, and I asked, you know, like, has this been helpful? What, what was this and the way that she responded, I’ve just you’ve given me the ability to see the possibilities. You’ve given me the ability to step outside myself and really understand like, what I’m capable of. And that was the moment that that moment will keep me going for the next week. And so just being able to have that and see that I’m making an impact. And then the other part that is a struggle is not having a, having colleagues having people sitting next to you so you can say, Hey, Kim, what do you think of this thing that I’m working on? And that has been really hard for me just as a person who is an extreme extrovert, I get my, my energy from being around other people. It’s always been I’ve always worked in an office. I don’t and I would say that if COVID didn’t happen, I don’t know that I would be doing what I am doing right now, because I was so programmed to go to an office, and friends of mine who worked from home for years, I always thought they were insane. I was like, I don’t understand how you function that way. But circumstances made it that that became my life. And now it has continued. So it’s just it’s finding people who are doing similar things to bounce ideas off have to understand that I’m not alone in this people are doing this as well, just their own businesses. Being the boss, that’s weird. You know, there are times where I look around, like, isn’t there somebody here, it’s gonna tell me what to do. But it’s, I’m trying to embrace that and understand that I get to build this the way that I want to build it. And that also part of it is I’m going to fall on my face, right? There’s going to be a point where I spectacularly fall in my face, and I pick myself up back up, and I go again because now I’ve learned something else. And I’ll move that going forward. And so I think having that growth mindset of knowing part of a growth mindset, too, isn’t that you learn something and you do it well. And then you do, you do something else? Well, again, part of it is that you fail and that it hurts, and then you learn from there, and you grow from there. And so I think that, keeping that in mind, it’s not comfortable. But I know it’s part of it.
Kim Meninger Yeah. And I think the, those are really important points to going back to what you were saying about not having a boss not having colleagues. You know, I am definitely, oh, I work harder than I ever have working for myself with nobody telling me what to do. And I often joke with my eight-year-old son, I’m like, I work for a really mean, boss. She’s really hard, right? And, but I think that it’s really important, because a lot of times we think about entrepreneurship, we think of solopreneurship as an independent activity, but we need other people. And I think that’s important for people working in organizations, too, is, you know, especially again, going back to the achievement value is we tend to think like, oh, we need to prove ourselves, we need to do it alone, that it’s cheating if you if you ask for help. And the reality is that none of us gets to where we’re going without support from other people. And it’s just from a pure logic perspective, why would you make it harder than it has to be? There’s so many other people who have come before us who figured certain things out who have insights, that would be helpful to us, you don’t get a medal for doing things the hard way, doing things the inefficient way. Just reach out build your own community, if you don’t have one, that either because of the structure, right of I’m working on my own, or maybe you’re not feeling like as attached to the people in your own company, because of hybrid work environments, or whatever the case might be, it’s like, find your people find your community because it first of all, it makes it so much more fun. And also, it’s so much less scary.
Danielle McCombs Right. And I think part of the entrepreneurship journey that I’m learning is, there’s a lot of information out there. And there’s a lot of people who have done this stuff before. And if you can learn from them be open to learning from other people, you also get to pick and choose what you do. So there’s not, I do keep asking, and I believe I asked you when we spoke originally, like, do you have the roadmap? Do you have the roadmap of how to build a business and like you just laughed, that’s what everybody has done in my face. But I’m gonna continue to ask because just in case, it’s there, and nobody’s telling me, because it would make it so much easier. But the other part of it is, is you get to learn from other people and pick and choose what works for you. And I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday, and saying she was like, you know, I just wish there was like, you know, this school or something you could go do of like, how to be an entrepreneur. And what I said was, right, but everybody there would be saying, like, No, but I’m gonna do it this way. I’m gonna do it this way, the right way to do it is that way because everybody wants to build their own thing to. So I think part of it is deciding what works for you making it your own and incorporating those things there. But also understanding you can leave some stuff behind.
Kim Meninger Yes, exactly. Exactly. And honestly, so I spent most of my life in a state of imposter syndrome. I was just crippling at times when I was working in high tech. And I assumed that it would be really hard for me coming into entrepreneurship, where, you know, there’s so many different ways to do things. And then I realized one day that everyone’s just making it up and there is no roadmap and that took all the pressure off of me. I’m like, oh, okay, so there isn’t one right way to do this. And I think that that is particularly true for, for women, is we get really comfortable with academic structures we like to know So what how we’re being graded how we’re being evaluated what we have to do to get the A. And so we’re, we’re very much driven to find that course, that certificate, that degree, that’s going to give us all the information that we don’t have, and what in actuality, it just ends up. The more we learn, the more we realize, we don’t know. And then it just keeps moving the goalposts out further and further. And so if you could just own the fact that you’re never going to know everything, and then it doesn’t matter, because nobody knows everything, and everyone’s just figuring it out as they go along. And this is fun, right? We get to be creative, we get to do it our own way, which is not something that many of us were taught to do. Growing up, we weren’t taught to be creative and challenge the system, we were taught to follow the rules and do it other people’s way. Right. So this is actually a very liberating opportunity.
Danielle McCombs Right? And I would say that creativity is something that I’ve never, I’ve always said, like, Oh, I’m just not a creative person. And what I’m realizing is, well, number one, creativity isn’t just being an artist, or being able to play an instrument. It’s many different things. And there is, there are things here that are just really exciting to learn and to figure out how to do it in a different way as creative. And I’m starting to learn different ways that I am creative of writing or speaking. And I have like a giant notebook here with all my colored pencils that I’m like writing things in and stuff is coming out where I never gave myself the opportunity to do that before because I needed to make deals and you know, get people money and do spreadsheets. And that wasn’t you know, that wasn’t the same. I didn’t have the liberty that I do now.
Kim Meninger Yeah. And I will say that just kind of tying it back to people who do work in organizations, a lot of times we have more creative freedom than we think we do. And because of these ingrained messages that we’ve gotten about being obedient following roles, not rocking the boat, we don’t recognize the opportunities to be more creative or put our own stamp on things. And I am been thinking about this a lot. Because when you think about it that way, you’re actually stifling innovation, if we’re just trying to follow someone else’s rules. We’re never going to create anything new, we’re never going to break out of the mold. And so, you know, obviously, we’re talking about the freedom that comes with entrepreneurship in a different way. But I also want to encourage people who work within organizations to think about how can they shed some of that sort of rigidity, and that attachment to there being one right way to do things. Because often the expectation is that you’re the one that’s coming forward and saying, I have an idea, I have a new way of thinking about this. Obviously, every organization has different values and different norms around how we do that. But I just think we would all benefit if we, if we could take a step back and realize, oh, it’s actually a good thing. When I do things differently from other people. It’s not, it’s, it can be scary, but it actually has a positive effect on everybody.
Danielle McCombs Right? Well, if you get to learn from other people, and even if it’s not the thing, not, it’s not going to be the way that we ended up doing it. It opens up the possibility of then being able to someone else could stand up and say, Hey, but what if we do it that way? Because you, you’ve allowed that creativity, you’ve allowed people to think in a different way. And I’ll say, actually, when I, when I moved out here, and I worked for a startup, that was probably the first time that growth mindset was really in a workplace, introduced to me, because the startup culture is we don’t know what we’re doing either, right? So we need everybody’s ideas here. And it was so hard for me, and I don’t think I ever got on board with it. Honestly, if I look back at it now, the whole time, it was fighting against the people who were the tech people and the, you know, the people running the startup part of it, and I was here for the real estate part of it. And me and my real estate people would always be like, we can’t do that. That’s not okay. We can’t No, it doesn’t work that way. That’s not going to work. And I think I spent the time there, like, honestly, always butting up against people because we were the old establishment. And it was like, this isn’t the way that this industry works. What they were trying to do was change that. It didn’t work anyway. But that’s beside the point. But it was, you know, I think we had a group of people that were so ingrained and we had been doing this for years and years that we couldn’t see a possibility of doing it a different way. And it’s interesting to look back at that now if I were to step into that job now. I think I would be very different in that role and be more open into being more creative.
Kim Meninger Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s a really good point is, all of us have a chance to check ourselves by noticing where we’re showing up with a fixed mindset anytime we tell ourselves. No, that’s not how we do things. That’s not the way it should be done. That’s a signal that there’s an opportunity to question that, it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to change everything. But it does build a practice around challenging your ways of thinking, right? Like is, is there another way to think about this? Right? Why do we do it this way? And, and just creating more space, like you said, for those possibilities, and not being the person who stands in the way of progress by saying this the way we’ve always done it.
Danielle McCombs Right, let that be the signal of the minute you say, No, this is the way we’ve always done it to really stop yourself to consider why, why is this the way we’ve always done it? And what are the other possibilities? But the, I’m just thinking of like, the epic battles that we had at that job of saying, No, you can’t do that. And how that probably wasn’t the best route.
Kim Meninger You think about it, we’d all be riding horses right now. So I’m curious, Danielle, you know, given everything that we’ve talked about, do you have advice for anyone else who’s thinking about making a change right now anything else that you think is important for people to be thinking about? And especially since we know that the comfort zone is a really tempting place to stay?
Danielle McCombs Yeah, I think that bet on yourself. Okay, because you, I think, and I, it’s been such a pattern that I’ve seen with my clients, they’ve all been so different. But they all have so much more inside of them than they give themselves credit for. And I think that we, it’s way too easy to fall into that comfort zone of okay, my and, like you said, My world is small, so I can dominate this world. But if you can open up to, there’s possibilities out there, and it probably will be a little bit harder, but it’s going to be so much more rewarding. Just that things don’t have to be in that little box. And you are much more capable than you think you are. So those would be the two things of give yourself credit for the things that you’ve accomplished and the challenges that you’ve overcome and knowing that you could do that again. And that there’s possibilities out there that you can’t even see right now but if you give yourself that opportunity to take those couple steps forward and look around, there’s a lot more out there than, than what you’re allowing yourself to do right now.
Kim Meninger I love that that’s such an inspirational place for us to wrap up today. And I want to do so by asking you where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and stay connected.
Danielle McCombs Yeah, so you can go to Danielle McCombs dot com is my website. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Danielle McCombs on LinkedIn. And also, my podcast is The Opposite of Small Talk. And you can follow us on Instagram at The Opposite of Small Talk. And our website is The Opposite of Small Talk. But you can find us anywhere you listen to podcasts. So that’s it’s my favorite project that I do and it has opened my world in so many different ways. So I would love for people to listen and you know, come learn with us.
Kim Meninger Thank you so much, Danielle. It’s been so great to talk to you today.
Danielle McCombs Thanks so much for having me, Kim. I loved this.