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  • Kim Meninger

Boys Get Sad Too

Updated: May 12, 2023

Boys Get Sad Too

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we look at the ways in which sports, social conditioning and other cultural factors make it difficult for men to navigate mental health challenges. My guest, Brian Thorne, shares his journey from veterinary medicine to sales professional and how his life goals guided him toward a better career for himself and his family. He also talks about his connection to Boys Get Sad Too and his decision to get more involved in public conversations about men’s mental health.

About Brian Thorne:

Brian Thorne is a mid-career Millennial who is still trying to figure it all out. He has a young kid, an old dog, and an incredible wife. All three are way too cute for him but they make a lovely family anyway. Brian works from home and has a wall full of hats. You should ask him about it.

As a child, Brian wanted to grow up to become a veterinarian. Although he was in veterinary school pursuing that dream, Brian says leaving medicine probably saved his life. Today there are fewer puppies and kitties in his day job, but lessons from medicine continue to shape his career in sales. Empathy changes everything. Sometimes small bandages cover the biggest wounds. And treats are best when eaten with friends.

Brian says his new goal in life is to be a middle-manager who doesn’t make work suck for his sales team. He’s pursuing an MBA with a concentration in Business Development and Sales Management to make sure of that.


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Kim Meninger Welcome, Brian, I can’t wait to have this conversation with you today. But before we jump in, I would love to invite you to tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Brian Thorne Thanks, Kim. I’m Brian, I am in sales, have been a sales guy for a long time. And I, like many salespeople fell into it almost an accident. My historical background, my academic background is actually in veterinary medicine, which is not the transition you usually make from medicine into sales. But that was where my mental health journey really started what I struggled with for, for a long time. And today, thankfully, it’s taught me a handful of lessons. But it’s also helped me frame sort of the ongoing problems that, that we still have. So a baseball hammer millennial sales guy trying to figure out the world and not be too angry at corporations everywhere. But at the same time, there’s a sort of personal reflection that, hey, I need to take care of me I need to take care of my, my friends and family and mental health is usually a missing piece in that conversation most days.

Kim Meninger And can you say more about just what you’ve learned about the mental health journey for, I would say, the general public but especially for men, because you know, one of the things that really drew me to you was the Boys Get Sad Too name. And it just really reinforced for me the fact that it’s not always social, socially acceptable for men to talk about feeling anything that might be perceived as, quote, unquote, weak or vulnerable. And so I can imagine that your journey has been challenging.

Brian Thorne Sure, yeah. So let’s rewind all the way back to young Brian. I grew up playing sports, my dad was in sports, my mom was in sports, I got into sports, identified as an athlete, had some wonderful, great coaches, some great life mentors that, that came out of that. But the traditional, you know, teenage growing up, you know, American sports motif is, you know, play hurt, play through the pain, don’t cry, you know, put the team before yourself and minimize the thing you’re feeling. I think, looking back, there is a difference between putting other people first but respecting yourself, and then minimizing yourself for the sake of someone else. And I think that that’s a balance that’s missing in sports. Not, not earth-shattering here. But that’s the, the playing field that got set. I matriculated into veterinary medicine, I was in veterinary school, and you’ve got this expectation that life is going to be very, very hard for four years, it is brutal. If you make a circle with your hands, and you look at that entire circle that is every animal on the planet, if you draw one teeny, tiny, little skinny line from 12 o’clock to the center of the circle. That’s the only animal veterinarians don’t treat human beings. Everything else, any animal that can’t talk to you is your responsibility. And it’s a little intimidating. How do how does the kidney work in, in a pig versus a horse versus a dog? And how do you treat insects in a, in a laboratory setting and tons of tons of ideas? And the idea that’s put out there is life is brutal, it’s tough. And eventually, you’ll have a DR period in front of your name, and that’s okay, you’ll be Dr. Brian instead of just Brian. And so life’s gonna be awful. Until then. What the veterinary medicine industry struggling with today is, is a really difficult mental health conversation. And we can pull up the stats and look at it. But compared to the general population, a veterinarian especially in male veterinarian is five times more likely to kill themselves than the average human beings. at a base level. It’s very surprising to hear this. Every animal in a veterinarian’s care will almost certainly be killed by that veterinarian, your dog, your cat at the very end of its life. It is the veterinarian’s responsibility to help it leave this world as peacefully as possible. We are taught Medically speaking, that death is the end of suffering. And we’re given the tools to make that transition as smooth and peaceful as possible. So if we as medical professionals who have been told these four years are going to be awful, and the rest of your life may or may not be great, but these four years will be awful. We’ve agreed to that. We’ve been given tools to end suffering. Occasionally we turn those tools on ourselves.

Kim Meninger Oh, that’s so while I, that is not where I thought you were going with this, but that makes a lot of unfortunately a lot of sense.

Brian Thorne And it’s, it’s sad, I had a classmate in my first year, excuse me, my second year of veterinary school comes from a veterinary family, well-liked, young man, lots of friends, he killed himself in school. In our class, he was going out for a social event that evening and didn’t show up. And we all had this. I think it was a productive conversation the next day, the next week, positively reflecting about it, but many people don’t, don’t have that dash of reality. He was a great guy. But the, it’s going to be awful for four years, was intimidating, became overwhelming. And he was taught how to end suffering. And unfortunately, that was the decision he made. And so that’s my background, I say, with a smile on my face. And I don’t mean to be flippant about that. But that’s my background I come from boys are tough, be, be hard on the field and don’t, don’t complain and play hurt and just deal with it. And then hey, the next four years are going to be really, really tough, and awful. And here are tools to deal with suffering. And so all those things came together and I decided to get out of veterinary medicine, I did not become a veterinarian, I am not a doctor, I joke, I got half the degree and all the student loan debt. And I needed to do something with my life I was getting married and needed to provide for myself and a fiancee at the time wife Now thankfully, and fell into sales because it’s something that you can talk your way into if you’re gifted enough at speaking. And sales, at least a decade, 15 years ago, didn’t have a lot of support structure was either you’ll figure it out on your own, and you’ll be great, we’ll be glad to have you or you won’t be so great. And you’ll leave and we won’t have to fire you and that’s okay, too.

Kim Meninger So how was that transition for you from? You know, coming from a very different world and in those types of transitions are naturally anxiety-provoking. What did it feel like to come away from something that you probably had expected would go in a different direction and now found yourself in this whole new world?

Brian Thorne Yeah, different direction whole new world. Those are, those are good words to use. I didn’t know at the time, but what I, what I knew was I understand people saying that as a veterinarian is really interesting. But before you can administer medicine before you can do a physical exam before you can figure out what’s wrong with fluffy or Sparky. You need to address the human being in the room. No, dear cat dog, or cat, parent, dog parent? How can I help you be okay with what’s going to happen next? And then I can start addressing the animal. Almost always. It’s a wonderful conversation and I got to play with puppies and kitties all day. That was really fun. And then I got to help puppy and Kitty get better. Sometimes a little problem sometimes big problem, sometimes really sad, difficult conversation. But that taught me how to respectfully approach people with, with a purpose in mind and not just know check the box. Alright, I, I talked about Kim’s feelings, we can move on to the next topic. But have it feel like we’re having a conversation actually engage in conversation where we get to know each other a little bit. And it’s not just I’m fixing, helping your animal, but I’m helping your family and you’ve invited me one maybe two steps into your family to help make that transition possible. That’s why I understood people I felt like I understood people. And so getting into sales I tried to match the, the scripts in the talk tracks and the, here’s what you’re going to do when you say hello or knock on the door with the Hi I’m Brian. I know I am bothering you right now. I know you didn’t ask me to be here. How can we as adults, either have a productive conversation? productively polite, we end this conversation so we can both move on.

Kim Meninger Wow, that’s so interesting, how transferable certain skills are right because you wouldn’t necessarily on the surface think of sales and veterinary medicine as being related are having any kind of commonalities but it makes perfect sense what you’re saying.

Brian Thorne And not to disparage our human medical colleagues, but we talked about some doctors having great bedside manner and have some doctors not having great bedside manner. With a small handful of exceptions, almost all of your veterinarians have, have to have pretty good bedside manner. Because no one’s gonna let you deal with their animals deal with your cat or your dog, or they’re certainly not coming back if they had a bad time. And so, either by personality, through training experience, or even through the academic world, a little bit more human care is taught in veterinary medicine. But to be fair, in human medicine, I don’t have to read nearly as many textbooks. So you know, there’s a trade-off there.

Kim Meninger Well, that certainly rings true for me having lost my two cats in the last couple of years, one was 16, almost 17. That was a really, really difficult time. But I was so struck by the humanity and the empathy and compassion that everyone involved showed, and just the follow-up notes, and they just need a very difficult time a little bit easier. So that is an interesting distinction. When you talk about human medicine versus…

Brian Thorne In a sales conversation, it’s a difficult time of either bothered you or you have to spend money and interact with a stranger you don’t want to interact with very different, but it’s a difficult time that hopefully, I can make a little less bad.

Kim Meninger And so how do you feel today, with the decisions you’ve made along the way?

Brian Thorne I don’t play with nearly as many puppies and kitties. So that’s, that’s a little tough. But it was, again, a tough mental conversation at the time. But I am acknowledging that I’m much happier today than I was back then. I’m much more productive, successful, feel better about myself, I feel like I’m contributing to my little space of the world more than perhaps I could have as a veterinarian. I did have a wonderful example growing up, I worked for a guy doc, every doctor was doc, back then. But Doc had a successful career for 20, 30, 40 years who gave back to the community and help support the farming and agricultural efforts in the local schools and worked with the police horse unit. He did everything Doc gave back. But I realized that you have to earn that ability after 20, 30, 40 years. Veterinarian day one isn’t giving back to the community right away. They’re undoing the four years of awfulness that they’ve just come out of, and it takes time to get your feet under you.

Kim Meninger Well, I find that a lot of times when you have a certain goal in mind, or a certain career path that you’re following, and then you decide, you’re not going to do that anymore. That there are a lot of stories that come through your head of, especially when you’re talking about a field that is known to be giving back or to be doing good work. And there, there’s a lot of parts involved in what you’re describing, too. And so when I talk to people all the time, who say things like, anybody would love to have this job, why can’t I be happy? Or, you know, this was my dream, and I couldn’t cut it or why, why am I not more grateful? Just all kinds of things that, that sort of undermine their confidence or their sense of self at a time when it’s already not working, which is the reason why they’re considering making a change in the first place. It gets kind of get layered. And I think it’s so important to acknowledge that just because something is good to one person, you know, and it can be viewed as a service, doesn’t mean it’s the right career path for you.

Brian Thorne Certainly, that’s totally fair. Yeah, I pursued this path so that I can do all these things. If I change my path, how can I still do those things? I will say, I am either incredibly lucky or incredibly ignorant that I had life goals set first. Be a good person, be a good husband, be a good dad. There were three. And I said how can I accomplish that in the most fulfilling way possible? And having met doc having met other people in the animal industry? I said, Wow, here is one way that I can give back to other people and support their families, through their dogs, their cats, their horses, and that’s how I can be the good person. And I see after time doc has gained the ability to, to donate time money, resources, expertise to help to give back oh my gosh, that would be so fulfilling in my career will naturally progress and I will earn that ability and that’s, that’s fulfilling. So to go back to the veterinary school crisis, I realized that being a good person, and being a good husband, a potentially good father, in my, in the world that I created, those couldn’t all coexist. So that was a crisis moment of, I only wanted three things in life. And now I’m giving up on one of them. It’s a dark time, to be fair. But I came out of that. And after a number of breathing exercises and ability to calm down, I saw that I need to, I can still be a good person in a different way. And I’m reframing my reframe to be fair, so zooming out twice, but I can still, hopefully be a good father in the future, I can still hopefully be a good fiance then-husband, immediately, how can I re pursue this third goal. And as almost everyone in sales will, will tell you, it’s the money provides that answer. And money links up with flexibility. And if I can find financial freedom and time freedom, well, now I can do all sorts of things for all sorts of people. And it’s not about being the number one guy in this place, or going to this big old company and being crowned the King of sales. But if I can find a productive venture, if I can be part of that for a while, and I can put into the company, so that I could then receive some flexibility on the back end, then I can achieve my be a good person goal, while I’m taking care of number two and three.

Kim Meninger I love that you talked about setting life goals first because I think then it really does reframe the role of your career and your life. If the career is the end goal, and something changes, that becomes an identity crisis, right? Whereas if the goals are bigger than that, then the career is just another vehicle for achieving those, those life goals.

Brian Thorne And so that makes interviewing hard, you know, why do you want to join our company, I want to not be an awful human being like, I could do that here. Like, it’s a super low bar, and we’re going to have this series of interviews and I’m gonna find out, yes, I can achieve that bar here happily, or I can achieve that bar here, but you’re gonna make my life miserable. And that’s a, that’s a bad trade-off. And so in many ways, that actually led me to my current field of study, I’m pursuing an MBA program, I love it. By the time this is published, I’ve completed my, my concentration. And then my core classes are coming up after that. And so I joked in class that my, my new life goal is to be a middle manager, that doesn’t suck.

Kim Meninger It’s like a great goal, you’re gonna make so many people’s lives.

Brian Thorne Because we’ve growing up in the, in the millennial world, I saw Enron happen. And I’m here in Houston, Enron is in Houston, I saw that crumble, we’ve had list your number of crises, go to 2007, eight, that whole world. Interestingly, I had a small sales career in the legal field in the mortgage industry. So I got to, through empathy and humanity helped people overcome this life-defining crisis. And so I saw growing up as a in class, we joke, I’m one of the angry millennials. So as an angry millennial growing up and seeing all these things, like, Why can’t corporations and, by extension, their, their people, their management, and I focused on middle management, why can’t they just be better? We’re all D-/F students at being middle managers. If I can be a B- middle manager, how many lives does that change? How many moms or dads get to go home and have better interactions with their kids? How many of them don’t feel bad about taking a vacation? How many of these, usually parents, but how many of these, these individuals can, can take time off and take care of themselves? Maybe travel, maybe eat maybe go on a yoga meditation retreat, know if I can just be ideally better than B minus but if I could be a b minus middle manager, how many lives can I change?

Kim Meninger Wow, I love that vision. Let’s talk about Boys Get Sad Too. What is it? How did you get here?

Brian Thorne So about a year ago, mental health awareness month in sales. I’m fairly active on LinkedIn and I see a lot of posts and Cross posts and one really caught my eye about a gentleman who has a big presence in Canada and was talking about how he struggled with mental health, especially as, as a man, as a sales leader. In a sales industry, which has a number of unfortunate overlaps with sports, you know, you’re going to play hurt, you’re going to keep going to it for the team. There is some, some toxic sports belief that exists in sales today. And he talked about that. And I was sitting down at my computer, and I actually pushed back on my roller Chair, thank, thank goodness for wheelchairs. And I said, Oh, my gosh, I feel this, like I had a knot in my stomach that he knows exactly what I’m talking about. He knows these words that I’ve not been able to speak. And I’ve always had this, the story of what I’ve transitioned out of, out of medicine, and I understand people but like, what does that mean for me, and to maybe reuse the phrase, the toxic masculinity, the toxic happiness, the toxic positivity, that is almost forced in sales, you know, it’s gonna stink for four years, no, you’re, you’re gonna get hung up on people are gonna yell at you. And you’re, you’re helping them I promise. But like, am I and I’ve got this identity crisis of I actually used to help people, I put on my gloves, I put on my stethoscope, and I would help people and help animals. And now today, I’m helping my boss go on vacation, but I don’t know if I’m actually helping anyone. And as the, one of the three goals in my life, you know, give back be a good person helping is, is a key component of that. And so I just launched a slow revelation, a slow burn for about a year. And I decided to jump in like you said that the company is called boys could said to it is a UK company. And I started reading started digging in a little bit more. And it’s interesting that we talked about this, this fear of the stigma of talking about your mental health. And I’m experiencing that I’m feeling that no, a year prior, I felt, felt deeply, you know, in my stomach, and I felt motivated to do something about it. And it took me 8-9-10-11 months to do anything about it to overcome this stigma about overcoming the stigma it was this weird cyclical, how do I get out of my own head space. And at the time, I’m the year fast forward, I’m, I’m in my MBA classes, we’re having some light conversations about this. And I make a post on LinkedIn, like I started doing and talked a little bit about my mental health, but mostly wanted to thank the other people who are starting this conversation and acknowledging that I am catching the wave that they have started. And maybe I’m the first part of that wave for somebody else. But this started, you know, 1-2-3 generations of conversation before me and I’m glad to be pushing it forward and acknowledging that other people have helped me get over this stigma. Not once in the UK once in once in Canada, and I’m, I’m in the US. And if we are planting these little mental health seeds in our different places, no can we hopefully get to the point where we’re sprouting more productive and useful conversation. And I bought a hoodie, I took a picture wearing the hoodie, and it’s fun, and I like it. I’m not a words on clothing type of guy. But it was one of the things that that meant something. And so physically wearing it on my chest and on my back it, it felt like this momentous step for me. And I realized all this culminated all this coalesced, if you will, with having a kid and having this thought of what type of world don’t want my child to grow up in? You know, how can I help set the path right for their generation? For them growing up and that struck a chord with me that my one of my three goals no be a good person. How can I give back how can I help? What if we change what if I’m part of the change of the mental health conversation of the mental health observation in, in my community in my family, hopefully, need to in a larger context. But, but especially, you know, change starts at home. Okay, well, let’s start that change at home. And now I’ve got, I’ve got some clothing that helps pursue that change even further.

Kim Meninger So what was the reaction from people around you? Have you found any surprising responses?

Brian Thorne Great question. I, one thing I learned after, after making the LinkedIn post is how many people also struggle with it. You know, the, the champions, you see the greatest fill in the blanks ever. You see, they’re commenting publicly or privately, oh, my gosh, I feel this too. Or I needed to hear this today. Or, you know, thank you for sharing and that you could feel that they are holding back and had conversations with, with friends and family and thankfully, through the power of the internet, and a friends can be almost anywhere and lead to a conversation. And the, I don’t want to say outpouring of support, because it wasn’t that type of, it wasn’t the type of message it was almost this in trying to be inspirational, or at least reflective and humble. I think maybe humble is the right word. And I’m humble enough to say, I’ve struggled, I’ve stumbled, here’s how I’ve started to stand up. Here’s what I’m starting to feel better progress and move forward. And I’d like to share that secret with you. And that was social media life hacks had been a big thing. Here’s my how to be a human being life hack, especially as a man, especially in sales, especially if you come from a sports background of these are all the things you do, actually, maybe not. So that ties with my angry millennial from MBA class of like, why are things the way they are? Why do we accept this, because objectively, it’s kind of broken and awful and rotten? And let’s not perpetuate that. Let’s fix this.

Kim Meninger That’s so inspirational. And obviously, as a woman, I don’t know what it’s like to be a man. But as I was sharing with you, before we hit record, a lot of my work has been focused on really helping women to navigate traditional gender stereotypes that have held them back in the workplace. And so there’s, you know, different kinds of confidence challenges and challenges around being more assertive and leadership, presence, et cetera. But I really have been thinking a lot in the last year or two about the ways in which gender stereotypes type of stereotyping traps men as well. I’m the mother of two young boys, you know, married to a man and I worry about them as well. And I want my two kids to grow up in a world where it’s okay for them to feel an entire range of emotions, where it’s okay for them to be vulnerable and empathetic and not feel like they’re being weak. And I am hopeful that we’re starting to slowly move in that direction. But as a man, how safe does it feel to go against the years of conditioning that tells men that it’s not okay to do certain things?

Brian Thorne Yeah, and that parent observation of, Oh, my goodness, how are am I going to all of these things? The conditioning is tough. And sort of throw it back to the team metaphor, you know, it’s the, it’s the name on the front, not the name on the back, you know, it’s who we are, not who I am. And a word that comes up a lot in my conversations is authenticity. How can I be authentically myself, I don’t need to be brash, I don’t need to be mean, I don’t need to be in your face. But there are elements that deserve to be presented respectfully, but I deserve the right to, to present them. And that’s been a big copper topic of conversation. In my studies, and in my classes that I am with a number I believe I’m with more women than men in my classes, and more people of color than traditionally Caucasian people. And so I, in a weird way, I’m a minority in my class. Now we turn the cameras off and I go back to being a middle-class white guy, not the minority anymore. But having listened to their, their conversations, their observations, the women in my class are, are amazing. And this is probably going to sound a bit privileged but I didn’t realize that people different than me, could have those ideas those thoughts and, and present that to The world. And that cause TAs, excuse me. And that caused an entire frame shift in my head of looking back at how I was raised and where I grew up and all the things I did, and oh my gosh, Brian, you were in this bubble. And now you’re in the world and that bubble was popped in, you need to act like it. And so recognizing, again, the women in my class and talking about their struggles, the, the people of color my class and talking about their struggles, we got into some nitty gritty, deep stuff, and how do you be authentically yourself in a world that isn’t open to that. And so I don’t have any idea what it means to be a female accountant of color in the oil and gas world. I cannot relate to those struggles directly. But I do understand what it means to be a guy in sales, who’s part of a larger sales culture that doesn’t recognize the things he thinks he does. You know, how can you be an angry millennial in the sales world, at the same time is doing your job and respecting yourself and doing life the way you want to and I don’t have it all figured out by any means. I’m still trying very, very hard. I try to listen much more than I speak, especially in class. But I see that this struggle is common. That it’s not just the, the political talking points of what does it mean to be disadvantaged or subjected to someone else’s opinion or put in your box? Everyone, almost, almost everyone has a box that they’ve been put in, they’re probably not happy about being in. And how can we talk about that, please don’t prioritize, you know, box A or box B or, you know, the this the side over that side. But let’s all acknowledge it’s have that empathy, go all the way back to veterinary medicine. We’re all stuck in a place that we’re not thrilled about being stuck in. And together, we can help break down those, those artificial barriers. And for the most part, it’s, it’s through conversation. Conversation, mostly part mostly starts with being authentic and being vulnerable. Brene Brown, again, from Houston, love. She’s right in your backyard. Everything I’ve seen from, from Brene. To chi, she talks about vulnerability. Again, if you haven’t seen it, please go do that. There’s my plug for someone I’ve never met personally. But how can you be authentic? How can you be yourself? How can you share in a way that helps other people feel comfortable to do the same? And it doesn’t have to be woe is me. And I’m struggling. And I’m that, hey, I, I see your humanity? No, here’s, here’s a small piece of my humanity that I hope you can see. And then we can trade back and forth until we’re actually having deep productive conversation.

Kim Meninger I love that so much. Because I really was struck by what you said about we’re all in boxes that we don’t want to be in. And it’s not, the conversation isn’t about necessarily the box that each person’s in, but the shared experience, and how we can collectively support one another and breaking down those barriers. And so I’m thinking as we sort of think about the, the actionable piece of this conversation that a big part of it is creating or finding the conversation, to be able to, because maybe in sales in a traditional kind of sales culture. That’s not the starting point. I’m just thinking about people listening and how they might move forward on something like this, maybe that That’s too risky, or they’re not ready for that yet, but maybe a smaller group conversation with one or two people that you know, has shared similar thoughts in the past or it to your point, being in an MBA program, being in a different kind of community group, something that gives you access to people where you can start the conversation and ideally, gradually bring it to other parts.

Brian Thorne And it sales particularly is tough, you’ve got a very patriarchal society type of, type of structure, hierarchical society, that as the doer at the bottom rung of the ladder, point of the parallel base of the pyramid, you know, how do I have a productive conversation and lead up the chain up the ladder of the pyramid and you have to, you have to earn it. I don’t get to just show up on it. up on a Monday or a Tuesday and say, Hey, boss, this is wrong. Let’s do it my way. Like that’s, there’s the door, Brian, thanks for coming. You don’t work here tomorrow. But you need to earn that, earn that opportunity. And you’re not starting a revolution. I’m not gathering all the natives and grabbing our pitchforks and storming the castle. But offering bits of humanity to your colleagues no are you maybe you’re alone in this, maybe you’re the outlier, that’s okay, you got to grapple with that yourself. Maybe they see it also. And that can build confidence and you can support each other. But ultimately, to drive change, you need leadership to get involved. And whether that comes from HR, or your sales manager, or the CEO, or whoever it might be. They need to see and experience that type of, that type of feeling as well. And maybe projecting here, but if you assume that they’re in a box that they don’t want to be in, and you can get them to see your box. Again, like you said, Kim, we’re, we’re not talking about the box, we’re talking about the feelings we have the experiences we’re having. And that’s a shared thing. I love the idea of you know, change being a light switch, you know, it’s either on or off. But that’s not the case, it’s, it’s a very slow turn of the dial. Not many people have gone sailing, I was scouts way, way back when and trying to turn even a small sailboat like it takes forever, and there’s no car you can drive that’ll give you the appreciation of a turning radius of a 20-foot boat like there’s no, there’s nothing. And I remember being 14 or something sailing this boat on this lake and like trying to turn around and it takes forever. But if you don’t start turning now, you are definitely going to miss your opportunity. And so there’s this new strange metaphor to know put a pin in the conversation of start the turn, now know how can we take the first step? Maybe in your office? It’s, it’s five steps, maybe it’s 10 or 100 steps. But you got to take that first step. And a lot of that is through conversation. And the scary part sales sportsmen, is that conversation starts with vulnerability, and how can I be appropriately vulnerable to build connections?

Kim Meninger I’m so inspired by this conversation, and so grateful to you for having it with me any final thoughts or anything that you want to point anybody to as a takeaway from this conversation?

Brian Thorne Man, plugging the company, there’s also a community and a conversation that they support, like you introduce it’s Boys Get Sad Too, spell the words out putting together, boysgetsadtoo is the company. If you buy stuff, cool, go buy stuff, that’s fun. If you don’t still participate in the community, especially if you’re, if you’re in sales, especially if you’re a guy, there is a great woman’s support of the men of the male community. And so this is welcoming to everyone. But it’s, it’s for guys trying to help each other out of this tough spot we’ve unfortunately found ourselves and plug myself on LinkedIn, first name, last name 1022. That is how you can find me. Dig through there, find the posts from May, there were mental health support and awareness. And I call out to the different colleagues that, that I’ve interacted with. And you get down this LinkedIn rabbit hole of following them and interacting with them. And it, it lets you know that there’s a community out there, and I may be your first experience with, with this wave of change. But I promise you it started multiple generations of, of people go and hopefully you’re on board with us.

Kim Meninger Well, we will definitely link to that in the show notes too, hoping that everybody will check it out. And like you said, I love the analogy to start now. It’s changed. It’s hard to change takes a lot longer than we want it to but start now. So thank you again, Brian, for this great conversation.

Brian Thorne You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

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