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  • Kim Meninger

How Is This Moving Me Forward?

Updated: May 12, 2023

How Is This Moving Me Forward?

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the ways in which our need to prove ourselves, combined with our fear of being exposed as a fraud, lead us to overwork and potential burnout. My guest this week, Caroline Rae, shares her story of living in a burnout cycle for over 15 years because of a constant need to prove herself, driven, in large part, by impostor syndrome. She also shares how she came to see the need for change, including a tough family intervention, and what advice she has for others facing similar challenges.

About My Guest

Caroline Rae is an executive coach and career strategist who has helped hundreds of experienced professional women to make powerful and aligned career moves they believed were 3-5 years away. In every high-stakes arena her career has taken her (from tackling health inequality to 10 Downing Street to co-founder to coach), she’s witnessed the career trajectories of countless brilliant women stagnate at midlife. Caroline is committed to helping women reclaim their career mojo and have even more impact as an authentic, empowering leader.

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Kim Meninger Welcome, Caroline. It is such a pleasure to meet you today. And I can’t wait to have this conversation before we jump in. I’d love to invite you to introduce yourself.

Caroline Rae Hi, Kim, thank you. And thank you for the opportunity I’m really excited to talk, talk today. So I’m an executive coach and Career Strategist, I work primarily with women, to help them navigate the world of work in a way that is more energizing, and with more ease and less stress. And also to think more around their career strategy. So getting much clearer about career strategy, rather than just the job that they’re working in. So I’ve worked with a lot of women over time to do that. And before I was a coach, I spent a bit of time in a number of different sectors and domains, I spent a bit of time in tackling health inequality, I spent a bit of time in central government, including working at 10 Downing Street, which was really interesting. And then I spent a bit of time in tech. And I think what I’ve, my experience in all of those domains, showed me how challenging it can be to navigate to manage your impostor syndrome. But I also saw myself and a number of women sort of stagnate or burnout at peak points in their career. And that’s what really led me into working as a coach, I think my own experience of being in a cycle of burnout for, you know, 15 years plus, and then very serious burnout, but also just recognizing lots of talented women sort of struggle with a number of different things that are unique to women. And there’s, you know, there’s lots of tools and techniques that will support them to move forward. But it’s easy to say and hard to do. And I think that’s the, that’s what’s so brilliant about this podcast, as well as is recognizing that it’s easy to say and hard to do.

Kim Meninger Exactly, exactly. So I want to dig in if it’s okay with you to your own burnout cycle. And what did it look like? And how did you know that? That’s kind of what it was?

Caroline Rae Yeah, that’s a great question. So I think I would say that I didn’t know. And, actually, it was really, when my family and friends and my husband started effectively doing an intervention, they were really flagging, we’re concerned about your health, we’re concerned about how you’re working, you’re working quite long. You’re not sleeping. And my response at that time was, I felt very frustrated with them, I felt like they just didn’t get it, they didn’t understand what my job was like they didn’t understand the demands of my job. And they didn’t really understand that there wasn’t really an option. To not work like that just wasn’t, you know, to not take the call at 11, 8 pm at night, to not be up at 5 am to get some stuff done before I headed to the office, I very much felt like just very disconnected. They didn’t get it and was completely in that tunnel. And it wasn’t until my husband said sort of took me aside for a slightly more serious conversation that I suddenly realized, you know, he was basically that we’re not we can’t continue in this cycle. I don’t think he was threatening divorce, I don’t think. But I think he was sort of putting his hand up and saying this is having a really negative impact on us and on me, as well. And that, that was the sort of moment where I was like, oh, okay, something needs to change. But I didn’t know what needed to change. And that was the big challenge. I knew something needed to change but I couldn’t see how you know, I just give up this job that was very demanding but also very recognized externally as a successful prestigious job. And so I was like, Well, I can just give up and you know, I’m responsible for all of these people and you know, this role and also it would feel like failure so I knew something needed to change but I could not see the word from the trees at all. And I still at that point, I felt like things were okay but, but another tell that I had a bit after that conversation was I started acting quite out of character. So started reacting very badly and I got into a couple of wrangles, I think we’ll call them with, with colleagues that again is very out of character for me so there was lots of signs and symptoms there but I just didn’t really I was, I was sort of to in it to notices and I think that is the challenge with burnouts. I love the time.

Kim Meninger Well, I love the way you say you knew something needed to change but you didn’t know what because I think when you are in it and you feel like I’m barely getting by, right I’ve got all of this work to do. This is my career. This is where I want to be at some level. What could possibly give right like you like you’re saying it felt like giving up to make the kind of change that would improve your overall well-being or lifestyle, whatever the case may be. And so in hindsight, I guess like, what? Where did you come to? And like, Is there something you would have done differently in that moment now that you’ve had time to reflect on it?

Caroline Rae Yeah, I mean, there’s like a cause, as always, there’s a gazillion things I would do differently. And I’ll talk about, I’ll talk about what changed. And I’ll talk about what I would do differently because I think that’s quite important. So what I did do, a friend of mine said, go see my coach. She’s brilliant, she’ll, you’ll come out feeling 10 feet tall, anytime you go see her. So I went and did a session with this coach, we had a look at my values. And what I realized was that none of my values were being satisfied, or were really present in my work. And that felt like, that felt like the floodlights came on, I suddenly was like, Oh, it’s a mismatch with my values. That’s why I’ve had this gnawing feeling at this sort of pit of my stomach that something wasn’t quite right. But I didn’t quite know what was not right. And then latterly, you know, as I was, as I got, more seriously burned, I became much more cynical. And I started questioning people’s motives. And I thought, what’s the point of this work? This is all completely pointless. One of my values is progress. So, you know, my progress, family, friends progress, you know, clients community, the world. And when I was working in this place, I started questioning is this, is this actually progressing? Is this making a difference in the world? You know, what’s it doing? And the answer kept coming up is no, objectively, it was, but just because I was so burnt out, I was really questioning. So that was a moment, that was a moment of recognizing, oh, it’s not, it’s not that I’m crap at my job. It’s not that I’m rubbish. It’s not that I’m lesser than, it doesn’t feel this bad, because I’m not very good. And I’m not good enough. It feels bad because my values are not aligned. In addition to I’m overworking, I’m not asking for help. I’m quite isolated. You know, these are all factors that we know contribute to burnout. But it was a real moment of clarity and relief. And then what I did was, I still couldn’t quite figure out well, what does it mean, and where do I, you know, how do I, how do I get out in a way that feels good. And so what I ended up doing was sort of finishing off the bid that I needed to do with the team and landed the big bit of project that probably took about six months. And then I made a move into something that I’d done before, that was sort of a sideways move effectively. But I went there because I knew the people, I knew the work and it was more aligned to my values. And I knew that it would be a safe space effectively, where I could sort of feel confident and move forward. The challenge with that was what I actually needed to do was finish at work and take a break. And I would I would have been, you know, in I was in the position where I could have taken, you know, three months, maybe a bit longer age. But the not good enough in me that imposter syndrome, said you can just leave a job and do nothing people will know that you failed. And so I leapt into this other job. And that was okay. But it’s it. It wasn’t confidence. You know, it was okay in terms of like, I could go there, I could do my job. But it wasn’t. I remember sort of putting my fingers on, on my pulse at one point during the day, because I was so numb. And the sounds very dramatic reflecting on it. But I was so numb, that I felt like I had to check that I was like, I was like, you know, am I alive? Like what? Like I’m not feeling any sensation. And that is, you know, that’s a very serious burnout experience. I don’t believe anyone needs to experience that. Unfortunately, lots of people do. So the lesson I learned from that burnout experience, which I’m you know, and I’m grateful that I had that experience because it’s taken me on the path that I’ve been on since but the lesson I learned is you need to know your values and how they’re satisfied. And also how can you get them satisfied through your career, through your career in your job that’s really important. When you’re working against your values, you know, you’re at risk of burnout but also you will don’t like that drives that self, self-doubt as well. And the other thing is, if you are burnt down, and you can afford to take a break, then it’s really important to, you know, recharge, rest, recoup and think more clearly, rather than diving into something else. So that’s what I would do quite differently. So I was responsible really for knowing, knowing my values. And of course, the other things you learn is how, how your imposter syndrome shows up. Yeah, mine definitely shows up in overworking. It definitely shows up in having to do it all by myself. Like it’s sort of, you know, as you said earlier, it’s like, you’ve got your fingers and all of the holes and all of the downs and you can’t quite see, you’re like, what finger can I take out, none of them. So interesting to figure out, oh, that’s how my imposter syndrome shows up. And that’s how that’s not good enough drives behavior that can lead you into quite a quite an unsustainable place at work.

Kim Meninger That is such a fascinating connection. Because I think that is, that’s a really great way to capture one of the effects of imposter syndrome, right? If you never feel good enough, you feel like you constantly have to prove yourself, and like you said, I need to do it alone, because otherwise, that’s cheating, or you know, it’s a sign of weakness, or of some sort, I need to do more. I loved what you said too, about, if you took a break, people would know you failed. And so there’s so much that’s linked to preventing this perception that you’re not good enough, right? And it just creates this vicious perpetuation of the overwork the proving et cetera, right? And you could see how people who are in the thick of it can’t really examine that in a more distanced way. Right. Do you have thoughts on? Let’s imagine we’ve got people listening right now her thinking, Oh, my gosh, that’s me. Right? I, she’s talking about me. Is there a first step? Is there a way to kind of, if you can’t, like you said, if you can’t take a break, because you can’t afford to leave your job? Like what step one, to slowing down enough to be able to have this conversation with yourself?

Caroline Rae Yeah, I think the first step, I think it can be very helpful. Like if you’re, if you’re thinking this is me, this is, you know, I’m feeling very burnt out, but I can’t see the way I’ve seen the way to do it. I think the first step is to ask for help. And you can ask for help from someone, it doesn’t have to be someone at work, it can just be, you know, it can be someone in your family or partner, it can be, you know, a good friend. And I think the first step is to really, almost get it all out on paper, or whatever way works for you. Some people, it’s talking it through some people, it’s, you know, getting it down on paper. But really understanding what, what am I feeling and what’s actually going on? Where do I feel? Where do I feel that I’m stretched? Where do I feel like I’m out on a limb? Where do I feel like I can’t let you know, I can’t let go? Where do I feel like I’m covering for other people? Because that’s often something that, you know, as what we see often with high achievers is that in as you tip, I’m not gonna use the word unravel is not the right word. But as you feel less control, you can’t this was my experience, the more out of control I felt, the more I tried to control. So the more I said yes to and the more work I was trying to do. And again, in that I don’t want to get found out so really identifying not Where are you playing out of your zone, but like, you know, what work you doing, that you shouldn’t be doing? That’s actually not yours to do. You might be yours to lead and direct, but it might not be yours to do. And then and then look at how is this showing up? For me in terms of, Am I sleeping? Am I you know, what’s my, like? Health? Like, what are my relationships? Like, I think we’ve just worked. I think we’re coming out of it, or we’re moving away from it. But certainly, you know, the corporate world has always been about sacrificing your health and relationships for you know, that’s worked. It’s been very powerful for the corporate world for a long time. Thriving on I believe people’s not good enough myth, and I don’t want to be found out and desire to really achieve. So I think if you can sit down with your friends, sit down with someone who’s safe. You know, someone who’s outside of work is actually often quite helpful, because they’re not in in the world with you and just map that out. Or do it by yourself if you feel like you can, but just get something done on paper so you can be, and that I think that process helps create a bit of space in the brain. But also, if you come back to that paper 24 hours later, you might be able to then be like, Ah, okay, this is clear to me. Now, that shouldn’t be happening, you know, that shouldn’t be happening, I need more of this. And then I think what can be helpful from there is to figure out, what do you want to expand? So that might be asking for help. It might be delegating more, it might be talking to your boss about what’s going on? And what support you need. What do you want to shrink, which might be saying yes to everything? And it might be staying, working all the hours, so that you can expand, having some time at home or time to look at to yourself? What do you want to eliminate altogether? And, and then you can start to try and put some of those boundaries in place. And those are small, but they need to be small steps. Otherwise, your brain is going to do the trick of Well, that’s your brain is gonna do the trick of like, oh, you’re not good enough. That’s not working entity. So they have to you have to start really, really small with it. But I think that would be my first step.

Kim Meninger What’s the role of gender in this conversation? Why is this so much more problematic for women?

Caroline Rae I think is more problematic for women because women do we know that I can’t remember what the latest stat is, but we know that women take on more of the office housework. So sorting out the Christmas de by the leaving, you know, gift, help with the office desk moves by by quite some way, like 70, or 80%. And we also know that women do more of the housework at home, and the housework. I mean, you know, childcare, housework, all of that stuff. In addition to that, there’s a number of barriers that women face that are blocks to progression. So there is an extra level of needing to back your value needing to be more visible, needing, you know, versus our male counterparts. And we’re not rewarded for that in the workplace. And so that also plays to our NOC not good enough. So that proving it energy is something I see with clients a lot that like, you know, I’ve got my promotion, I need to prove myself now. And it’s like, you don’t need to prove yourself, you proved yourself getting the promotion. Now, what you need to do is figure out where you want to have your impact and how you do that in a way that is impactful, energizing, and, you know, as with more ease, not to say there’s no challenge or hard work, of course, but so I think we it’s more complex because we’re doing we have less time doing the stuff that is just about moving forward in our career. And it’s harder for us to do that because of the systemic cultural barriers as well. And all of that is just more burn, it’s more friction, it’s more effort. It’s more messages that we’re not where we’re supposed to be. And if we try and get where we’re supposed to be that also, you know, you might be seen as aggressive for. So there’s a real compounding effect. So it’s quite a bit more to get through.

Kim Meninger Yeah, I think you bring up so many important points. And I was thinking about this when you were talking to about the idea of what are you doing that you shouldn’t be doing. Right, paraphrasing what you’re saying of taking on the additional work. And I think that, that proving the need to prove yourself is a big part of this. I don’t think men feel guilt or shame when they say no to their boss, because they already have a full plate like to them that feels strategic, it feels like oh, no, I’m not, I’m not going to focus on lower value, lower priority activity, I’m going to focus on what makes the most sense for my role without that inner critic that says, you’re, you’re, you’re weak, or if you could, you know, the fact that you can’t do it means you’re not good enough kind of a conversation, right? And I think that that is inherently limiting, because to your point, there’s only so much that we can do and that we should be leading other people to do and so as we achieve The goal of advancing to higher levels of the organization if we hold on to that need to prove ourselves, and we feel like we need to do everything ourselves, and we inevitably hit a wall, because there’s only so many hours in the day, right. And so I think, a combination of, I constantly feel like I need to do the work myself, I need to prove myself, maybe I don’t want to burden my team, because I know how busy they are, too. So there’s this caretaking aspect to it, maybe I don’t feel like I can have an honest conversation with my boss, because then he’s gonna realize I don’t know what I’m doing, or I don’t belong here. And the fact that we just don’t necessarily have the same kinds of relationships that men might have with senior leaders, where they can just in casual conversation, talk about their needs, what resources are required, right, like, what’s happening behind the scenes and the work that’s going on. And so it just feels like, the more I achieved my goals, right, like, the higher up I go, the more demand there is, the more I have to prove myself. And then this whole burnout piece that you’re talking about just gets more and more powerful.

Caroline Rae Yeah. You’re really right. I think it’s something that I hear from clients a lot, which is, I want to go for the next, I want to go for the promotion, I deserve. They’ll say that in our, you know, confidential, safe space, I deserve that I work for it. I you know, I’m at least it good, if often not better than, you know, my male counterparts who have similar peers. And yet there’s a concern about, but can I handle it? Will the stress be too much? What about my, you know, home life? I don’t want to have to do 24/7 working hours. And I think when you combine that with the trend, I think there’s two interesting things, there’s the transition from doing to leading it’s, it’s a very challenging transition for everyone that you know, from going from being recognized and given the gold star for doing the tasks and the projects. And suddenly, you move to this place where you don’t get the recognition, because you’re leading through people, and that’s very challenging. Particularly when lots of people want external validation, they want recognition and rewards. Because that way, they feel like I know I’m doing a good job. And I know I’m proving you know, that I can know I’m proving myself. And that gets you get less love and attention as you go further up, the further the organization. So I think it is really important to start to build your own evidence and so that you can self-validate. So a big piece that support supports me now even and certainly when I was. But certainly, as I was learning how to navigate or not navigate imposter syndrome, it’s work alongside with your imposter syndrome, it building that evidence bank, so start starting to really understand what value you bring to the table, start tracking those wins, and start celebrating them. So that you can be clear with yourself and have that clarity about you know, the results that you get the strengths and skills that you have and what the outcomes of that is for you for your team. Because one of the biggest mistakes that I see people make, particularly women is that they think that their work will speak for them. And it doesn’t, it just doesn’t, particularly the more senior you get. And the reason for that is because only a very limited number of people see the depth of your work, and the amount of detail and work that you do. The thing that you think is about someone did a study on I think 10% of the work you do actually contributes to people’s understanding of your impact. So… and also to your career opportunities. And so if you’re relying on your work speaking for you, then that’s going to make life really challenging, in addition to the other challenges. So being able to really talk to the work that you’re doing and the value that it brings to the table. And I think also recognizing those relationships that you need to spend time in. So what you were talking about in terms of like men, you know, tend to be quite good at the side conversations and asking for what they need. We know that women tend, tend not to do that. I think it’s called pre-wiring. So around the edges of meetings, of course, that’s been harder over the last few years with the pandemic but around the edges of meetings. So, again, it’s really distinguishing between doing the job and manage it and being managing your career. So one of the other mistakes I see that I think is impostor-driven syndrome is people focus all their women focus all their energy and attention, which is limited anyway, on their job, doing the job, getting it done, getting it done, you know, as quickly as they can and to the best of their ability. And what happens is they sacrifice that, ‘Well, where is this taking me? What do I need to be doing? Who do I need to be talking so that I’m always moving forward?’ So, there’s always a piece to look at, which is about that career strategy, like, how is this moving me forward? What do I need to do next? What network do I need to build? What conversations do I need to have, but the proving it drive will tend to keep us focused just in the day-to-day of doing the job to the best that we can. And also, that in itself is quite stressful. Because all of a sudden, you then look up and you’ve been passed over for promotion? And that can be really, you know, that doesn’t, that doesn’t help with our sort of proving energy either.

Kim Meninger Well, you said something earlier, too, about control. Right, then. So I think this is a form of gaining control to just try to have everything. Yes, you’re the one managing everything. Right. And I think we do that at sometimes at home, that in our, in our work environments. And I’m curious what your thoughts are on this, because, from my perspective, as somebody who has had a lifelong anxiety disorder, I’m all about control. And I think so much of what we’re trying to do when we’re trying to control things is to prevent something catastrophic from happening. And we’re imagining the potential catastrophes, and all of the fallout that will have will come if we don’t do the things that we’re doing. And I think sometimes it just requires a leap of faith to do the scary thing that you are, like, avoiding to then realize, oh, that catastrophic event didn’t come. Right. So when you’re talking about letting go of some of the day-to-day stuff that we hold on to so tightly, I’m sure there are a lot of people thinking that’s not possible. There’s no way that could work. And I think part of it is I just have to believe that he does do it. And on the other side, find out that the sky didn’t fall, right? The, the world is still standing.

Caroline Rae I couldn’t agree more, I think. I think what’s, what’s important is to recognize you will have done that many times already in your life and career. But we forget because we forget about all the math, you know, we were always looking at, like, what’s the next mountain to climb? How do we mind? How do we do it safely? How do I do it without getting soaking wet? How do I do it with enough snacks in my bag, we don’t look back at all the mountains that we already climbed. So again, I think you know, it’s really great to, to think of go back and think about where have I navigated uncertainty before. You know, uncertainty is not going anywhere. It’s here to stay, it’s only going to increase. And I think it’s one of the critical skills actually to really develop and practice as a leader, but also as just like as a human living in in the world. So recognizing that sometimes you do need to take the leap. I mean, even if I think about how imposter shows up for me now, impostor syndrome shows up for me now, you know, even with this podcast coming, coming to talk to you today. So I was obviously really excited about coming to talk to you today. But I would say sort of 24 hours in advance. I started getting the Oh, but have you learned enough? Do you know enough? Like what happens if you fluff up your you know, if you, if you stumble across your words, what happens if, what happens if and five years ago, if that had happened, if I’d been teeing up for this conversation, I would have procrastinated for a long time, instead of doing what, what we did, which was like we connected we talked about what was going to be most useful for your listening audience. We talked about you know, we talked about how the session was going to work. I then went away and made sure you know, I, I was clear on what I wanted to share. And then did some work which I’ll talk about around how to set myself up for success, which included not looking at my notes before I came on to the session dancing around to JLo which is always a great way to get, get into the zone. And also looking at the evidence of what I do know and what I do bring to the table. If I had been coming on to This podcast five years ago, I’d have procrastinated for a very long time. No, but in a way that felt very, you know, was very stressful. I would have then crammed for, you know, made it very difficult for myself, I’d have sort of sat at my desk with that kind of punishment stick like you must do this, right, you must learn all these things. And before coming on, I’d been cramming rather than thinking about how do I want to connect with Kim, how do I want to show up? How can I make my space nice and calm, so I’m having a good time? And so I think it doesn’t say it’s not as sexy as being like, Oh, I’m a huge adventurer. But the, the way that you learn to really support yourself as in these small, small shifts, and also recognizing, you’re still going to feel the fraud at your fraud, befriend your, your friends who’s like you’re a fraud is still gonna come knocking. You know, I even know that, you know, I have a great time on this show. And I’ll feel great after it. But I know about 24 hours now, from here, from when we finish, I know that I’ll get the, oh, I probably didn’t say that quite the right way. Or I’ll get that, oh, I probably sounded a bit silly, then. So I know that’s coming. And I also know, I’ve got a few tools to help me with that as well. But I think that’s the thing about uncertainty, you have to leap in. Because every time you leap in, it’s more evidence that you can do it. And just making sure you keep capturing that evidence and taking the leap. And then the other thing is, you can take the leap, if it doesn’t work out, no one will remember. You might remember, no one else will. And you can make changes. I think there’s a really brilliant, I want to say it was Jeff might be in Jeff Bezos, I know he’s, we don’t really like to talk about him too much now. But I think he talks about a one-door or a two-door decision. So being clear about whether this is a decision you make that you can change, like buying a house or something, obviously, you can change that. It’s just very, very, very, very expensive to do. Or a two-door decision, which is like, I’m going to experiment. I can experiment with this. And then I can also go back if I don’t want to. So wonder decision would be I guess, like having children. A two-door decision is I want to go and try this new career in this new sector. Or I’m going to take a sabbatical. Now, you can always go back to work, particularly if you’re a midlife, you know, professional, that you have so much experience under your belt. And there’s time for more than one career. So I think just also being mindful about what do you get to do? Like, what do you get to do? And what’s the upside of the opportunity? You know, that’s certainly what I was thinking about today, coming on to the podcast, you know, it’s like, I get to meet Kim, I get to spend an hour with her. I get to share, you know, we get to share our thoughts together, rather than oh my god, oh, it’s gonna be so terrible. What am I gonna do? People are gonna find me.

Kim Meninger And, I think that’s such an important point that we can choose how we evaluate a situation, right, we can think about, there are lots of different ways to think about any given situation. But choosing to focus on the opportunity, choosing to focus on how do I want to show up as opposed to all the terrible things that might happen is just a more empowering way to live our lives. And to your point. No, but let’s say that you came on here and you said something silly. First of all, we probably would have cut it out and rerecord it. But let’s say we did it right. Like nobody but you is going to remember that everybody’s going to remember your story and how much it resonated with them. Right. And, and I think that’s really important for everybody listening to remember to and I’ve often joked about my therapist told me years ago, you can you are the center of your universe, you’re not the center of the universe, as much as you think they do, right. And it was this very liberating comment that she made. Right, nobody else is thinking about me. And you know, people aren’t leaving this podcast, and I cannot believe that she fumbled through that word, right? That’s like, I’ll think about it at three o’clock in the morning. No one else cares. And I think just reminding ourselves of that is a really helpful way to navigate. Like you’re saying this uncertainty in these intimidating situations. He’s we’re so aware of every little thing we do. Nobody else cares.

Caroline Rae Yes, always. It’s always a moment when you, Yeah, when you’re either told or someone you realize no one is paying attention, like no one is paying attention. They’re all busy worrying about their own stuff. That’s right. You’re busy with their own stuff. So yeah, it’s, it’s very liberating. It is liberating. It’s liberating place to operate from.

Kim Meninger It really is. And I love your point about building evidence too because I see that in two directions. Number one is, how do I take stock of all of the things I have done or the mountains, I have climbed and really celebrate those and not just let them pass me by, but also, how do I create evidence by focusing on the things that I want to be known for? Or the, the, you know, the strengths that I have? How do I lean more fully into those? And so I think that’s such a really great point, too, for people to take away from this is, what is that evidence bank?

Caroline Rae Yeah. And that’s a lovely framing came about, you know, what are you what can I create? And how can I focus more, even more intentionally on my strength, you know, the experiences that I want to have the things I want to try? But yeah, I think that’s a really beautiful framing.

Kim Meninger Thank you. And thank you so much for this amazing conversation. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you?

Caroline Rae You can find me I’m on LinkedIn, Caroline Ray, and also Carolyn Ray website. And yeah, you can drop me a DM or just explore more over that.

Kim Meninger And I will link to that in the show notes as well. And thank you again, this has been such a great conversation.

Caroline Rae It has thank you so much, Kim. It’s been wonderful to spend some time with you.

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