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Leadership Is an Inside Job

Updated: May 12, 2023

Leadership Is an Inside Job

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about leadership as an identity, one that empowers us to own our own destinies. My guest this week, speaker, coach and author Sabine Gedeon, shares her story of transitioning from corporate HR leader to entrepreneur. We also address important challenges facing women in leadership, including the need for greater self-awareness so that we understand our greatest strengths and how to best contribute them, the ways in which we de-prioritize our own needs, and the fear-based stories we tell ourselves about what’s possible. She also shares practical, actionable tips for how to empower ourselves to lead in all areas of our lives.

About My Guest

Sabine Gedeon serves as a transformational Speaker, Author, and Coach. With nearly 20 years’ experience across various corporate HR disciplines, in addition to coaching and consulting, she is highly skilled in getting to the root of issues, and creating solutions to support growth and transformation, both personal and professional.

From start-ups and Fortune 500 companies, she supports women, emerging leaders, and entrepreneurs by helping them become effective change agents and influencers. Known for her ability to connect with people at the deepest levels of their beings, to reveal their unique brilliance, she helps clients break through their own mental limits to lead with confidence and elevate their influence and impact.

She is the Founder of She Leads Network, and host of She Leads Now (a top-rated podcast centered around women in leadership and business), which both exist to empower and equip women leaders with the strategy, resources, and self-belief needed to create fulfillment in every aspect of life.

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Kim Meninger Welcome, Sabine, it is such a pleasure to see you again, first of all, and second of all, to have you as a guest on the podcast. I know I was a guest on your podcast sometime last year. And I’ve been looking forward to this moment when I could bring you on to my podcast, and we could continue our conversation here. So, welcome, I’d love to invite you to start by introducing yourself.

Sabine Gedeon Yes, thank you so much, Kim, thank you for having me on your show. I’m so excited to be on here. So I am Sabine Gedeon, an executive coach for women and emerging leaders. And my focus is really around supporting women in developing not just their leadership skills, as we know it are because that’s a very broad base. But also looking at it from a holistic perspective, as I as I’ve shared before, and as you know, I believe that leadership is an identity. And so it’s an inside job. And therefore I support my clients, within organizations and individuals in tapping into some of their internal resources to be able to be effective externally. I’m also the founder of She Leads network, which is a network of professional development and training mastermind, if you will, for professional women who are looking to advance in the areas of leadership and building their personal relationships, in negotiations, and that includes asking at all levels, and in certainly developing their winner’s mindset.

Kim Meninger I love the work that you’re doing. And I think this just dovetails so nicely with everything that we talk about on this podcast related to impostor syndrome, and just the general sense of, I’m not good enough in my everyday environment. And so I’m curious if there are specific patterns or themes that you see among women leaders today, given all the change that we’ve all experienced, anything that you’re noticing, or particularly zooming into?

Sabine Gedeon Yes, well, we all know impostor syndrome is here to stay. And it’s probably been here a lot longer, almost like quiet quitting right? And some of these terms that we’re hearing like it’s been here, it’s showing up differently. One of the things that I want to highlight as a plus is that, you know, especially within the recent, I don’t know, few months, we’ve seen a lot of women at high-level positions, right? So like, they’re already in the C suite, there’s been the talk for the last several years of getting women into the C suite. Now we’re seeing the transition of the women who are in the seat C suite, saying, you know, what, this, isn’t it. This is not what I wanted to do anymore. And I think that that is such a pivotal conversation, you know, we look at the prime minister, who just recently stepped down, we look at Facebook, who has just lost a couple of its key women. And you know, again, it goes back to the narrative of the pandemic, or during the pandemic of, oh, there’s a great resignation, and the women are driving it, and they’re leaving, right. And some people are inspired by that. And some people are kind of like, okay, great, you know, like, it’s problematic. And I just think that we are in a time and, and a space where, you know, women are stepping into something that I believe that has always been available to us. But perhaps because of the societal structures, we have not been able to tap into it and the way in the manner that we could and that we should, and that we’re declaring that, you know, we are the owners of our own destinies. And what does that look like when, when we’re in the corporate environment? What does that look like as entrepreneurs? What does that look like as mothers, as fathers as caretakers, excuse me, not fathers, as caretakers and, you know, individuals in the community? And so one of the things that the biggest piece, stepping away from what does it look like to be a great leader to Okay, who am I? What are my strengths? What are my values? What do I bring to the table? And how can I leverage those same very things in a different capacity that lights me up and brings me joy? And as we were talking about earlier, you know, we both became corporate dropouts, because we had a passion and a desire to do more. And yet, you know, there are times and there are periods where we find ourselves, creating another corporate environment within that, that, that same structure that we built for ourselves. So what I’m seeing is a lot of women and it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re leaving corporate America though, more women have started businesses in the last year than previous years. But what they’re doing is declaring you know, what, I want to live life on my own terms, and I want to be who I am. And I’m going to create a space for find a space that allows me to be the full essence of who I am and bring my unique brilliance and bring value and continue to grow and develop whatever mission I’m working towards.

Kim Meninger I love everything that you just said Sabine, and I’m trying to figure out like the best entry point into it because I am no I’m thinking a lot about the, the dynamic between the system and In the women as individuals, right, and I love the way you called Leadership an inside job, and I’m curious what your thoughts are on, you know, I had this very cautious optimism at the start of the pandemic, that this was going to reveal all the cracks in the foundation and that things were going to get better. And I think that to some extent, it has accelerated at least an understanding of how the system for women in particular is broken. I think, unfortunately, there are still a lot of individual women who do not feel empowered to ask for what they deserve to challenge the system in important ways, not just for themselves, but for others as well. And I’m curious if you think that this is something that’s only available to some women based on their power, their privilege? Or do you think it’s something that any of us could take advantage of, if we had, you know, more support and more mindset shifts resources available?

Sabine Gedeon Absolutely, definitely the latter. You know, I believe that, again, leadership is an identity of man, woman, whatever, you know, gender, you identify with that. It is an, it is as innate within us as our ability to love or as our ability to do anything else. But it shows up differently in each and every one of us, right? And we all have our spheres like for some people, it’s, it’s being a stay-at-home mom, right and leading the household. And so I, we talked about this before, I want to break away that from that narrative, that leadership is tied to the role or it’s tied to your position or the organization that you work at. You know, and if you look at it from the perspective that you know, leadership is an identity, it’s part of who we are. And, and part of our essence, I would compare it to, let’s say, an apple seed, right? When we have like, we know that when we’re holding an apple see, not that I’m holding one right now, but we know or any plant, right, we look at nature, we hold an apple seed in our hands, we know that, okay, this is just an apple seed, there’s also part of us that understands that this seed can produce an apple, which can produce a, you know, a tree of apples, which can produce an entire orchard, right. But if I take the same apple seed, and I put it on my windowsill, guess what, nothing is gonna happen that apple seed will always just be an apple seed. But if I take that apple seed, I put it in the right environment, aka the right soil, I give it the nutrition that it needs, sunlight, water, everything else, it will grow, and it will flourish into the thing that it’s been created to be. I think that what we’re seeing, or where we have this opportunity right now, for women and for leaders in general, is that a lot of people have been in environments that did not nurture or that did not nourish who they were, or who, who they had the potential to be. And so this awakening is part of Wait a minute, I’m wasting potential here, like I need to be in the ground, I need to be in an environment that allows me to be there. And so this is not, not to encourage people to have like a mass exodus a major job, right? But recognizing if where you are today is counter to what you know, you have the potential and the capacity to do, right, let’s, let’s have some self-agency and say, Okay, what environment, what project, what role, what department whatever, could really help me tap into the greatness that’s within me so that I could flourish, I can grow and I can thrive? That also starts with answering the questions of who am I? What are my values? What’s important to me? What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses, so I believe that we can all get to the place where we are flourishing, and you know, full orchards like in healthcare. But we have to do some of that internal work first, to declutter some of the roles, some of the identity, some of the beliefs that have been placed on top of us so that we can get clear. And then once we’re clear, we know, okay, this is the environment, or this is the space that I need to be in because this is where my full potential and my zone of genius is going to allow me to flourish and grow and make an impact and, you know, support others.

Kim Meninger I love that you bring up the inner work because I do think that we are often running a million miles an hour, you know, especially working parents or caregivers, like you’ve described, because it might not just be your own kids that you’re taking care of right, and then all of the work responsibilities. And so I find that a lot of people push back and say, I don’t have time for that. And I argue you don’t have time not to do that, right? And it’s really a matter we all have the same amount of time in any given day. It’s how we choose to use it. And I think that it’s really important to also convey that this doesn’t have to be done in one sitting right. And I think sometimes people feel like oh, I don’t need to take a week off for more or I can just reflect on who I am. And so can you say more about how we might think about this in more sort of practical terms for the person who’s thinking, oh, gosh, yeah, that sounds great. But when am I ever gonna do that?

Sabine Gedeon Yeah. And I’m gonna piggyback off somebody that you said, when we talked last, right, you know, similar to networking and building a relationship, that is part of the work. So if you can identify, or if you can accept that you’re doing a lot of the mindset work is actually part of your growth and part of your career strategy, then it, it makes it a lot less daunting, to have, to have to take on the other pieces, we can, again, I like to use examples here, we can look at sports athletes, right? Like if Steph Curry as an example. I’m not a big step, sports buff, so please forgive me if I butcher anything. But he didn’t, he didn’t just step onto the court and start, you know, shooting threes. He’s been practicing at this all his life every day, multiple times a day. And so I say that to not say, Okay, now you got to do it multiple times a day. But give yourself grace. If your starting point right now is that you know what, you’ve just been on autopilot, and been in the hustle and bustle of life and haven’t really created that space to focus on you and what you want and who you are. That’s fine, right? Let today be day one, or whatever you’re listening to this podcast, let it be day one. And you know, you don’t have to go big, it can be just one thing at you know, especially now that at the time of this recording, we’re at the beginning of the year, we know people set those resolutions in December and in January. And within a few weeks, right, the gyms are going to be empty, you know, the produce section is going to be full again. And you know, the cycle goes back to what it is, it’s because people try to change too much at once. We will, we will mess up our nervous systems, if we try to change too much at once. Pick one thing, you know, I was having a conversation with one of my clients the other day, and you know, she was feeling very, very overwhelmed life, life was just happening all around her. And she felt fairly obligated. And I just asked a simple question, what is your morning routine? And at that point, she was like, Okay, well, you know, I do this and then I do this. And then I do this. And what about five minutes, like what if you set the alarm to wake up five minutes earlier, to just have a moment to yourself before you start taking care of everybody else? And before you start doing everything. I’ve even assigned clients a task, I actually have a couple clients doing this right now, after you’ve brushed your teeth. After you’ve washed your face and done all your stuff in the morning, stand in the mirror, look at yourself, tell yourself you love yourself 10 times stared deeply into your eyes. And tell yourself that you love yourself. Because I’m a big, I’m a big believer that how we start our day, right determines how the day goes. So it doesn’t necessarily have to be like, Oh, I’m you know, I’m on workshops for three, four hours of the day. It’s I took one minute, out of my day, first thing in the morning, and I gave to myself, the love the affirmation, the recognition that I needed to help support me and fill my cup for the day.

Kim Meninger I love that so much. Because I think that that makes it so much more bite-sized, right? It’s really hard to imagine anybody who doesn’t have time for something as simple as that. And eventually, it’d be there’s a cumulative effect to that, right? And one thing I wonder about is, and this is based on observations that I’ve had with other women as, as well as within myself, sometimes we feel like the things that you and I are talking about are selfish or inappropriate for women to watch or overstepping in some way. And I think part of that is that we have been conditioned socially, not to advocate for ourselves. And so we are anticipating backlash to that if we do it. And in other cases, we also have been for so long, putting everyone else ahead of ourselves that we don’t prioritize our own needs. And one of the things I think about a lot and I’d love your perspective on any of this, but one things I think about a lot is how, how we benefit ourselves and others are not mutually exclusive, right? And when you talk about being nourished in a way that allows you to reach your full potential and give your best self, your business benefits from that too, right? That’s not a selfish act. That’s something that actually allows you to contribute in more meaningful, more impactful ways. And so I’m curious what your thoughts are on just this challenge that so many women face around, like oh, this is not an appropriate thing for me to do or want?

Sabine Gedeon Yeah. Not, not to be the meanie here. But I, I would offer that, you know, for those who, who, who have that belief that is a belief that you’re choosing, because you can easily look at someone in real life in your circle who makes time or who has, you know, these opportunities, and their lives look a lot different. Now there might be some like, oh my gosh, I can’t believe or I wish, you know, I could do that. But the truth and the reality is that people are able to make this time. So you know, again, give yourself grace, if that has not been your focus. But you know, I asked clients this before to, you know, when they’re like, I don’t have time, or it’s just too much, and how often do you charge your phone? And the answer will be every single day, and in some cases multiple times a day. So if you know that your phone, right, like if it is that important for you to make sure that that phone, or your Fitbit or your Apple Watch or whatever you’re using right to support you in life, if you know that that thing needs to be charged every day, or multiple times a day, how much more are you worth? How much more important is it that you are taking a moment and you know, we hear that cliche, which I don’t believe it’s a cliche that you can’t pour from an empty cup, it’s true, you will not be able to send a text on a dead battery. Just Whoa. And so as human beings, you know, we like our bodies, our minds, like it’s just magnificent and what it’s able to do, but it still has limitations. And so when you can look at it, especially if you know because women were nurturers we are supporters, if, if the heart and the motive is really because I want to be there to support my family, I want to be there to support my team, I want to be there to do that, then you have to be there. And part of being there is you recharging part of being there is you pouring into you what it is that you need to do mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, so that you can continue to give, nurture and be who you want to be for the people around you. And

Kim Meninger I think that’s such an important reframe that it’s not, I’m not choosing me over others, I am choosing me so that I can be of greatest support to others. Right. And I think sometimes we think of that as an either or proposition. And one thing I’m curious about because you had said this earlier, and I’ve had conversations about this recently, where there’s a real fear of taking a risk because maybe I’m the primary breadwinner. And if I make a misstep, I could have you know, it could have huge ramifications for my family’s security. Can you talk a little bit about how to think about this kind of empowerment in the context of very real insecurities that might come up for people?

Sabine Gedeon Yeah, so two things, two words that comes to mind is around failure and trust, right? And so we, we type base, that the word failure is like the worst word in the, in the dictionary. And so for the last couple of years, I’ve been really leaning into what failure means, right? I, you know, being an immigrant and having like, really, really strict immigrant parents, like it was just like, if you got a B, you’re a failure, right? Like, you fail. And even that I just, I just said it, and I caught myself, there’s a difference between failing at something and being a failure, right? And so, you know, learning to separate the events from the person. Oftentimes, if we’re doing something for the very first time, there’s no way we’re going to have it perfect because we’ve never done it before. There’s no pattern in our subconscious mind to support us in being successful in that space. And so what I’ve started to do is rather than look at even just business things, day-to-day business things right, like, let’s say I don’t, I don’t get a proposal, or I don’t get a client or a client says no, or something like that. In the past, I would look like at that, like, oh, my gosh, I failed. And you know, of course, I do the well what can I do differently? Like, there is a layer of being able to reframe in that moment, so that I can make the iterations, but the programming was still you’re a failure, right? And so what I’ve started to do, or what I’ve been doing is really taking a step back and saying actually, no, that’s not a failure, and I will reframe and I will talk to myself, That’s not a failure. That was an undesired outcome. And because I can see it or I look at it as an undesired outcome, then I can look at it as Okay, well, what would be what would I need to do? Rule, or what would it take to create a desired outcome? And so these are, you know, this is years of patterning right from like school in our homes of, okay, if you set this goal, you don’t meet the goal, then you failed. No, if I set this goal and I don’t meet the goal, then there are things that I have not done or decisions that I have not made or made that work that so how do I look at it and reverse engineering it, reverse engineer it to get the desired outcome. The other piece around taking a risk is really around that peace of trust. I was reading the book and I’m still reading it off by Iyanla Vanzant. It’s called Trust, learning to trust yourself learning to trust God learning to trust others, and learning to trust life. And it was such a, it was like, mind-blowing for me. Because while I have, you know, I’ve, I’ve taken risks, right, leaving corporate America started a business, that’s a huge risk. All the pivots that I’ve made, were risks. But at the same time, there was a lot of courage, or I brought in coaches or abroad and resources, and I brought in support to help me do that. And in reading this book, it made me realize that we’re not really taught as human beings, how to trust, you know, we think about from even our earliest phases of our being, you know, it’s always the don’t do this, right, as little kids were taught stranger danger, don’t, don’t do this, don’t do this. So we’ve been pattern to look for the negativity or the positive light the possible negative outcome of a situation where, you know, going back to that question of being able to answer Who am I who do I want, you get to a place where you are so founded or rooted in who you are, and who you believe to be and what your strengths are, and what your gift is, that you can say, you know, what I’m stepping out on, on faith, or I’m being courageous and asking for this thing. I don’t know what the outcome is. But I trust that, you know, I will be able to bounce back with whatever comes at me or I will learn from it. Or that there will be someone who comes along the way I was explaining this to somebody the other day, I was just like, I’ve noticed in these last couple of years, every time I’ve started to move towards something different, right along my path, someone whether it’s a coach, or course or someone comes on my podcast, or it’s a client, someone comes around, that gives me some glimpse of what’s possible. Now, when we’re not looking for and we’re programmed for all of the negative that can happen, or the worst-case scenarios, we might miss those opportunities. So if you’re in a place where you’re in transition or transitioning, or you’re considering a transition, first things first is okay. How will I know how what are, what are some of the triggers that I’ve had inside that alert me when something is good, or alert me when it’s stranger danger, right? Because we know that we can go back to some things where we didn’t listen, we didn’t listen to that inner voice, we didn’t listen to that gut feeling, as they call it. And we proceeded and the outcome didn’t work out the way that we want it to. But then we also have evidence in cases where we listened to our gut, or we listened to that still small voice and took action, and it yielded in a positive result. And so it is work and get me wrong, it is work. But you can get to a place where you can, you can make decisions, not off of emotions, or just off of emotions, or just off of external factors. But you can go deep inside within yourself and ask, okay, what is the next step? And then be curious enough to be looking for the opportunity or to be looking for the answer.

Kim Meninger Oh, I love, I love everything you just said because what I think about too, as somebody who has had a lifelong anxiety. I don’t even want to define myself by an anxiety disorder. But I’m somebody who’s prone to anxiety, right? I am so focused on what if in the future, and I just love what you’re saying about the fact that we have been conditioned to look for the negative, we will always be on alert for where the potential threat is or the danger lies. And in doing so, especially if you couple that with what we were talking about earlier of not taking time for that self-reflection and getting to know ourselves. We forget that we have a lot of these resources already. I mean, nobody has gotten to where they are today without overcoming a challenge or solving a problem right or taking a leap of faith in some way. But every time we reach a new Crossroads It’s in our lives, it feels like this is the first time because we’re not taking stock of all of the great skills and strengths that we’ve acquired along the way. And that we’ve honed through other examples of this. And while this particular situation might feel unique, because there are certain attributes to it that we haven’t experienced before, the fundamentals are the same. And I think that’s really important. Because whether it’s through our own life experience, or even sometimes I find that, let’s imagine there’s a person who’s in transition, who’s a project manager, and they’re really struggling with their job search, like, you’re a project manager, you know how to manage a project, right? Like, you have the skills, but you’re so close to it, and you’re so focused on the fear and on what might go wrong, that you’re neglecting this amazing toolbox of skills and resources that are already available to you.

Sabine Gedeon Yes, that is, that is an amazing example. I literally a few months ago, I was just, I don’t know, I was just processing kind of where we’re life had taken me. And I looked back at my career, and I was just like, Okay, I started my corporate career In, in recruiting. And I did that for 10 years. And I remember at some points when like, my friends would be like, wait, what do you do? I mean, like, I talked for a living. Like, that’s basically, that’s basically what I do. I talk really living because it some days, that’s what it felt like. And towards the end of the year, as I was looking at my business and looking at shifts, I kept feeling this, this pull in this tugged forwards, you know, doing putting myself out there to do more speaking engagements, right? And so nationally, the imposter syndrome came through, like, Oh, I’m not a speaker. And I don’t know anyone who’s like, made a real career out of speaking even though there, there’s evidence all over the place, right? And so all of my insecurities and all my crap started coming up. And I was just like, there’s no way there’s just no way that I can do this. And that thought came back to me of remember how I used to tell people that you talk for a living? Do you remember that? And I was just like, Oh, I did, I did use people that even as a coach, like as a coach, most of my day is spent talking, I mean, more so asking questions, but it’s still leveraging my verbal communication skills, to be able to connect, to be able to communicate to be able to share ideas with other people. And it was like, once I could decouple that it was just like, Oh, look at this, maybe there are techniques that you need to learn, like, you know, storytelling and all those pieces. But guess what, you have people in your network, which is always huge, right? Remember, like, none of us get to whatever our ideal of success is by ourselves. It’s, you’re meant to collaborate with each other. So the question then becomes once you can realize, Oh, I’m a project, I have project management skills, like, I can totally put this in a Trello, board and Asana board or whatever, and like figure this out. Also know that you don’t have to do it all on your own, there will be other people who can support you and collaborate with you, whether that’s the form of a coach, or a course or something else that helps you build a skill set to be able to move forward. But at no point are we ever, I feel like we’re, we’re never going to be drawn to something that is not already within us, or that we have, we don’t already have the capacity to do be or achieve.

Kim Meninger That’s a really good point. And I want to call out a word you’ve used a few times now, which is evidence because I think that’s a perfect thing. Like, I often advise people to have little sticky notes on their laptops or kind of keep something in your back pocket. And one of the, one of the sticky notes could be like, what evidence do you have that, that is true or not true, right, because we tell ourselves stories based on this fear, and based on our, our hardwired, desire to protect ourselves from harm. But the ability to examine and challenge that is really important. And that comes back full circle to where we were before, which is it takes time to do that you. You owe it to yourself to really reflect and think about what are the things I’m telling myself? And what evidence do I have that, that’s true or not true so that we can move forward in a more fulfilling and more, like you said, way that realizes our potential more fully?

Sabine Gedeon Yeah, you know, I used to do this exercise. I think I might have to shift it just because who I was and where I was and made sense. But it used to be like this whole work worst-case scenario exercise, right? Especially when I was leaving corporate America. I was terrified or I didn’t even have any clients. But again, I felt this, this tug within me that said it’s time and as I’m making the plans to leave All of my fears, all of my worries, all of my crap is coming up. And before I even gave notice Kim I, in my head, I was already convinced that I was going to be homeless, like I didn’t even give notice yet. And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is gonna lead to homelessness because my family can’t support me. And I’ve always been on my own. And I don’t understand this than a third. And I didn’t realize it. And then that it was my subconscious mind trying to protect me and trying to get me to that place of let’s stay comfortable. Let’s stay where it’s familiar. And then I came across this book, it was the millionaire consultant by our I think it’s Alex Weiss. And he talks about in this, his experience was much older, but he talked about how before he left his job, him and his wife sat down, and they looked at all of their assets. Right. So how much did they have in credit cards? How much did they have in their retirement? How much did they have no savings and everything else? And at the end of it, like, you know, he had some dollar amount, so he could then backtrack and calculate, okay, this is the runway that I have right? Now. I was like, Hmm, interesting. Let me do that exercise. I did the exercise, right, with all of these components, I had a year’s worth of resources available to me, if I didn’t get one client, I would be okay for at least a year. But before I do that exercise, I was homeless, I was on the streets. Like, corporate dropout to like, you know, life’s gone wrong. And it just, that was the moment where I was just like, okay, so I mean, there’s a lot that you, that you make up. And those worst case scenario, because for me, the worst case scenario was me being homeless. And so taking that step back and say, Okay, well, what if that did happen? Like what? Like, what were my resources? What would have been available to me? And so I share that to share, you know, for those of you who, who are listening, who are kind of in that space, where you’re kind of, you’re not sure how to move forward? Look at it from the worst-case scenario, let’s say that didn’t happen, or that was going to happen. Plan for it. What would you do today, to ensure that that doesn’t happen, or at the very least, you’re able to mitigate the impact to yourself, if that did happen?

Kim Meninger Oh, I could talk to you all day. I just love how practical your insights are. Because I think there’s such a gap between some of the things that we might think about theoretically, and what’s practical for people on the ground. And I think that you’re, you’re offering so many great sort of consumable actionable steps for people. And I want to give you an opportunity to share for people who want to find more of you and get more involved in your work where they can find you and anything else that you want to point people to. And we’ll put it in the show notes as well.

Sabine Gedeon Yes, absolutely. And thank you for that opportunity. It’s always great chatting with you. Just amazing. I feel like I’m looking in a mirror, I’m talking to a mirror when we get to connect. So thank you for being you and being an amazing reflection back to me. So for those of you who are listening who want to connect, you know, you definitely check out my websites of I hang out on LinkedIn. And that is my hangout spot. That’s how I met Kim. So please don’t hesitate to reach out connect with me, let me know you’ve heard me on the podcast. And I’ll be happy to to connect with you as well. And for those of you who are in that space, where you are in a leadership role, and you’re looking to take your leadership to the next level, I have a free resource. It is a guide, if you will a leadership guide that focuses on you know, what are some of the things that we do or that gets done in organizations or environments that we don’t realize is actually blocking creativity and blocking our ability to create the results that we want. So you can find that it’s a free download on Sabine Gedeon back comm slash report. So again, that’s, you’ll get the immediate download. And of course, I have a podcast. It’s called she leads now. And the focus of it is really you know, to support women, professional women, leaders, entrepreneurs, and just advancing at all levels of life, a holistic look of what it means to be a woman leader who is tapping into her leadership identity and expressing it in a way that allows you know, a major impact in the world or in the environment in which he has influence.

Kim Meninger Thank you so much, Sabine. I’m always so inspired by our conversations. I leave them feeling so energized and I’m sure others will be who are listening will feel the same way. So thank you again for being here.

Sabine Gedeon Thank you, Kim

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