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  • Kim Meninger

Putting Ourselves First

Updated: May 12, 2023

Putting Ourselves First

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about our natural tendencies to neglect self-care because it feels too selfish or because we don’t believe we have the time. My guest this week, John Chilkotowsky, executive coach and former executive leader, shares his story of how a panic attack changed his relationship with himself and his work. He also shares insights for others who might be neglecting their own self-care.

About My Guest

What if you are the most efficient and effective being alive, but your map is incorrect?

First, you will be in constant motion that may look like success for a little while. And second, you will quickly get to somewhere you don’t really want to go.

Some might say: “But MY map is correct!”

Others might say: “I’m SO fast that I can afford to have a map that’s incorrect. I’ll just go twice the distance.”

What do you say?

As a former Fortune 100 consultant and nonprofit leader, and as a current entrepreneur Executive Coach, John Chilkotowsky learned a lot from what seemed like failures in the moment, but later as golden opportunities. He helps leaders recognize the ways in which their mindset creates their reality, and how they can create a map aligned with what they really want, and start moving towards the “gold” in their leadership and life.


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Kim Meninger Welcome, John. I’m so glad that we’re finally here and having this conversation before we jump in, I’d love to invite you to introduce yourself.

John Chilkotowsky Thank you, Kim. Yeah, great to be here as well. So um, John Chilkotowsky calling here today from right near Ithaca, New York, the Finger Lakes Area upstate, and joined to give a little more Kim or just do you want to get more as we go?

Kim Meninger Well, I’d love to hear just a little bit more about your work and kind of what your focus areas are.

John Chilkotowsky Yeah, sure. So. So I started as a fortune 500 consultant, I did that for about five years, with Accenture, moved into C suite roles with midsize nonprofits for about 15 years. And now it’s like the work I do is I work with leaders and teams at all levels to help them elevate communication, collaboration and a sense of fulfillment. So to me, that can look a lot of different ways. But I’ll pause there and just see where we might go next.

Kim Meninger Yeah, so I’m really curious to hear your story of Were there particular aspects of your own career that you felt you needed to address by moving into this new world that you’re in now? Like, how did you make the link between the Old World and the New World?

John Chilkotowsky What’s funny, just hearing me say that I’m like, I think I was thinking, that just feels like my life, you know, continuing to make a link between the old world and new world. But anyway, I won’t go there to that extreme. But so my work from the corporate world, to going into nonprofit leadership was a huge jump. But I would say equally as big was the leap from working as a leader, to then being you know, executive coach, strategic thought partner, whatever we want to call it. And that was really, there was a, there was a moment. So I’ll do a brief story here, Kim, just to go there. So I’m at a nonprofit, I’m the CEO there, we’re having our best year ever, I’ve significantly helped the organization double in size are pretty close to double in size. And I’m feeling pretty good about things. So that’s the setup, I’m driving in, I feel uncomfortable, I pull over to the side of the road, I think I might be having a heart attack. I’m not. I’m having a panic attack. But to me in the moment, the two might as they’re the same thing. I’ve never had any experience with either, but I’m uncomfortable, and something’s, something’s off. And so basically, I tried to keep working, I could somewhat, you know, I’d be in a meeting room, and someone would close the door, and all of a sudden, I’d have claustrophobia. And all I could focus on was like, you know, I could hear my heartbeat, right? You know, I mean, it was just like, and, and so my anxiety was so high that I couldn’t work. I was questioning in that moment. You know, things, things went through my head I’ve had to two young daughters in the moment when this happened. And, you know, one was like, Is my nervous system just not built for this level of leadership? Right, like, that was what went through my head? Can I not do this? Do I need to? Do I need to downgrade and take like, a literally boring office job? I don’t mean anything. I mean, right? Like, something is just boring. And I can clock in and clock out. And it’s not no stress, really. And somewhere at this point, a mentor came to me and said, John, you know, would you like to work with a coach? You know, we’ve had a lot of great results in the past, especially around stress and, and I said, Yeah, that’d be great. So this was 2010. Kim. So coaching was still coaching was out there, but it wasn’t. It definitely wasn’t known as much in the nonprofit world. I’ll say that. And I said, Oh, that sounds great. I had no idea. I had no idea what it was. I had no idea what I was getting myself in for but I knew I was suffering. Right, I knew I was in trouble and I needed help somehow, which was hard enough to admit, but then I started to work with a coach, was back to work in a couple of weeks. It was pretty dramatic. After a couple of months, I would say I was better than ever. But the better than ever came by going sort of down into these things that I didn’t know were there, these real blind spots around how I was not taking care of myself in certain ways, how I was not taking care of relationships in certain ways, how things I was doing was creating this, you know, rot, if you will, in the foundation of the organization, whereas outwardly everything looked awesome. So that was pretty humbling, to say the least. But then coming out of that, the questions after that were what’s next? That was coming from my coach? And I couldn’t answer that either. But ultimately I said, Wow, this was magic. I would love to help other leaders who, you know, are feeling on the ropes somehow, if you will, not sure how they can go forward, or if they can go forward or in what way? Doesn’t have to be that extreme. But that’s sort of how I came from there to here in a bit.

Kim Meninger So, hmm. That’s such a powerful story. And I’m curious, what, you I’m just trying to think of how to ask this question because it sounds like when you talked about going deep into some of these issues that maybe you weren’t examining, what would you advise other people to think about? Is there a way to recognize if someone’s listening, that they’re in the same kind of a situation that they might be prime for the kind of support that you were able to take advantage of like, maybe short of having a panic attack on the side of the road? Right, which I think is, is a really great sort of symbolic image of what you were experiencing. But how do you know, how do people know like, there’s a rot in the foundation?

John Chilkotowsky I think about it, I mean, it’s, I have thought about this a lot for myself, you know, how, what would I have done if the coach wasn’t there? What would I have done if the mentor wasn’t there in the moment? I think there’s, I mean, I don’t want to be cliched in any way about this. I think when I’ve been in that place, and I think a lot of times when I work with others who are in that place, there is a sense either of stuckness of just like I am trying and trying everything I can, and I’m actually just getting exhausting. It’s like the dream, where you’re trying to run away, but all of a sudden, like you’re running through molasses or your feet are 200 feet long, you know, like you just can’t. And but you’re giving all you can, like so there’s something to that. And by the way, I’m not I understand that, you know, anxiety and panic. And those things could be something handled with a therapist, it doesn’t have to be a coach by any means, or it, or it could help from both but and then the other side of it besides that stuckness Is this, like, I want to get off, I want to get off the Ferris wheel or I want to get off like, things are moving so fast, that there doesn’t seem to be this opportunity for reflection. That doesn’t seem to be it’s just too too much. So it’s, I think they’re both linked, I think people could experience and I have experienced both sometimes. But it’s this things are moving so fast, that I can’t, I can’t I have no idea where I’m going next. It’s like my day, I’m just being propelled from the time like, by the time I get into bed, it’s like a spring, right? It’s just like, boom, and the day happens. And then I just kind of collapse. So I think either of those are ones that I associate both for myself, but also in talking with people, they have some sense of those. And I also just want to say in the world right now, you know, just with all the layoffs that are happening, you know, at the time, we’re speaking now and, and on the heels of the pandemic, or the hills on the pandemic of different places, depending on where you live, it feels like these situations are happening more and more. And so those, that’s where I sense, like, people sense like something’s off, and I need help. I might not know the help I need, but I need help of some kind. And what I frequently find, and I this was true for me. I didn’t have a strong core of mentors in the moment that I felt comfortable reaching out to had work relations, but not outside of that. And I think that’s what made it hard for me to acknowledge it until I was you know, not able to work and in a panic attack. So how’s that? Kim? Is that?

Kim Meninger Yeah, well, you know, you’re, you’re making me think about this in multiple ways because what you’re describing is obviously unique to your situation, but very familiar. And I’ve talked to people from so many different backgrounds at so many different levels that are all feeling some variation of what you’re describing, and it just makes me think about and I think about this a lot of just how broken the system is read that it’s really not a sustainable system for humans, uh, you were in the nonprofit space. A lot of the people I talked to her and you know, traditional corporate environments, it’s not working for anyone, I don’t really know anybody who’s thriving. Everybody’s doing what they need to do. And you know, they may have some indicator indicators of success, whether that’s getting promoted getting a raise whatever the case may be, but it’s hard to find people who say, Yes, this is how I want to be spending my life right now.

John Chilkotowsky Mm-hmm. Yeah, the, the, you know, I stated upfront part of what I, part of what I think I really I bring as a strength is this sense of fulfillment, of recognizing for myself when it’s there, and when it’s not taking action to get there and helping others do that as well. And I know, I’ve seen, you know, you’ve said about, you know, to being able to be human at work. Right. You know, I think that’s where we’re, we’re right in line there. Kim with that is, especially on the corporate side, but really even on, the even on the nonprofit leader side, you know, well, I was just reading now, CEOs, I think even incorporate the average tenure is less than seven years now. That’s average. And I know, in that laptop, five and in nonprofit for a long time. So there, there’s a similarity there, you know, if leaders aren’t able to operate at that highest role for more than five, six years, it’s like that’s, there is something wrong. So that sense of fulfillment, I find, it starts with self-care, or putting ourselves first. That’s the thing to me, you know, when I was, again, when I, when I had a panic attack, and I literally couldn’t work, it became so clear very quickly, that, you know, whether my nervous system, you know, was set out was meant for that or not, it was like, I had to do something, no one else could do it. For me. Even if I had all the coaches and therapists in the world, it was like, I had to do something to shift how I was relating with the world. You know, and for me, that meant a lot of slowing down. A lot of reflection, things that I wasn’t spending time on as a newer parent, and a, you know, high performing high value creating leader. And I think today, it’s like, my sense of fulfillment, when I look back at that was really coming from I not only can I be this great leader, by slowing down, I think it’s required. I think as, as the speed picks up, as we’re moving faster and faster, as the environment is changing around us faster and faster. I think it requires more slowdown and reflection, not just to operate, but if we want to keep operating at higher levels. That’s my take on it.

Kim Meninger And what would you say to people who are listening who are thinking that’s just not an option for me, right, I think, believe it or not possible because they’re, you know, their team isn’t slowing down and their boss isn’t slowing down. And they’re going to be left behind in some way that they’re not going to be able to keep up and they’re going to be seen as less committed or a lower performer.

John Chilkotowsky Well, I know you I know, you work a lot with, with, you know, women’s leadership, you know, different ways of looking at women’s leadership. And so I want to be sensitive in my answer to this. But I believe it for everyone, that there is this one, I believe that rest is a critical component of high performance. Period, right? If we all know if we don’t get we don’t I mean, I deny it, you know that I need as much sleep as other humans. But, but it’s true. Right? So to the extent that I am getting the sleep I need, I’m able to function at higher level, to the extent that I’m able to pause and reflect about myself about my team about what’s going on in the organization in the world. World is essential. It’s just a, it’s like it. So what would I say? I guess it’s uh, you know, if you’re not doing that now, how about a little experiment? You know, that’s how I, that’s how I sort of got into it was recognizing and being willing and working with my coach was you know, about an experiment about doing this? How about doing that? And that made it much more, it was easier for me to try new things, in that in that world of experimentation, you know, the growth mindset that I thought and I think all of us do, oh, I’ve got a growth mindset, right. And then we start to realize it’s not, it’s not an on-off switch, that there’s all these different layers, and intensities and continuums of places that we don’t look. And I think only when we’re able to pause and reflect, and whatever that looks like, could be going for a walk, it could be yoga, it could be a lot of things. But without that, I think about the, the asset Ferris wheel, but even like merry go round, like that sense of there’s someone standing, and you can see their face, and they’re a friend, but you’re going so fast, that it’s just this uncomfortable, dreamlike blur. And to me, it’s like that’s especially now, I think that that image, that perception that I can’t slow down because I’ll lose something is actually sending us more quickly, to lose something. Yeah, yeah. So that’s my sense of it. I don’t know if that’s convincing anyone listening. But that’s, that’s my sense of it.

Kim Meninger I think that’s such a good way to put it, it’s sort of accelerating the inevitable, right, because as much as like you said, we want to believe that we don’t require as much sleep as other people, we can multitask better than anybody else. There’s all kinds of stories we tell ourselves to justify this type of behavior. But eventually, it catches up to us. And it catches up to us either in the form of burnout or panic attacks, or even just, you know, you make a mistake, because you’re operating on fumes, right, and you just don’t have the brainpower available and that that can derail your efforts. And so, I think that a big challenge, and a big opportunity is to really reframe how we think about self-care, and really try to understand that self-care is not selfish self-care is not, you know, I’ll get to it when I get to it. Right, which never, the time never comes. It’s that is an investment in myself so that I can do my best work.

John Chilkotowsky Absolutely. And do and you just hit on that, that selfish and self-care part. I think that’s so many times, you know, for myself, and for others. There’s a sense of, Well, if I’m doing that for me, then I’m giving less to others. And I think that’s the, that’s the twist for me that I really needed to shift at some point was, you know, oh, if I’m free, I’m getting more sleep. And somewhere, I’m taking away that time from someone else, you know, or if I’m going and doing my workout, oh, how can I be so selfish? I’m not. But it’s, it’s exactly that flippin there of No, when I do that, within reason, okay, we’re not, we’re not talking about like, you know, five hours. But when I do that thing, I am recharging my batteries. To the extent that I’m now gonna be that much more present and available for everyone in my life. So it is this like, sort of twist in there. And then leadership presence was the other part that was just coming in when you said about you had made a comment in there, Kim. Sorry, I’m forgetting the exact words. But, but I was just thinking also how this overlaps so much when people say, Yeah, I want more confidence in the way I present myself, you know, in the way I’m speaking in the way I’m, you know, I’m being passed over for promotion, because they’re saying I’m not confident, you know. And, again, it’s like, well, where in your day? Do you have that moment of? I am completely here right now. No, and I don’t mean it, mystically. I mean, just literally, when I’m not thinking about, Oh, my gosh, what could happen if this doesn’t work out? And oh, my gosh, that thing I did earlier, and I really screwed up. It’s like, When am I right here, able to listen to others? And be like, Ah, I not only sense what you’re saying. But I can I can feel the emotional impact of what’s going on for you. Yeah, and I’m not just thinking about what I’m going to say next. Yeah, quality, you know, again, whether it’s, it’s men, women, it doesn’t matter. It’s like that quality, I believe comes from what you said that making that investment in ourselves. And again, whatever that looks like, but making that investment in ourselves, builds that, that confidence or I would also say compassion is the other word I bring in. It’s this sense of I’m a human, and I need nurturing of some kind and To the extent I deny that is, I believe the extent I deny it for others who I really want to be of service to.

Kim Meninger Well, and that’s such a great way to put it to because I’m also thinking about what responsibility do we have to each other in these environments. And I’m curious to hear your perspective on this, having mentioned that you were at the sea level, right? So you’re a CEO, you’re driving yourself into the ground. And you’re in your mind. And I think this is true for so many, right, whether you’re a parent or you’re a manager, or you’re thinking I have to take care of other people first. And that’s the justification for not taking care of yourself. But at the same time, what you’re sending is a very powerful message that this is what success looks like to everybody else in the organization and that it’s not okay for them to go take an hour out of their day to have a workout or for them to not respond to emails at midnight, either because they’re watching you. And so, you know, as much as we think to your point that, like, the extra hour that I’m sleeping is time spent away from somebody that I should be taking care of. It’s also reinforcing a message that we don’t value. Taking care of yourself that we value doing whatever it takes to get the work done.

John Chilkotowsky Yeah, the do what I say not what I do. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s incongruence is a word that I definitely comes up in, in the work that I do. And it’s like, okay, well, when was the last time you took a vacation? Well, our company has an unlimited vacation policy. Okay, so when was the last time you took vacation? Yeah, it’s been like four or five months? You know? Okay. How about the people on your team? What’s your perspective on? What do you, what do you tell them? Oh, they should take, you know, they come to me, and they, they? Oh, you should definitely take it. And I said, Okay, so what? Yeah, to your point, like, what message? What message? Do you think that gives them as far as what being a successful leader is? Does it mean, letting everybody else go? But you never have to? Because you’re not actually human? You know, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re a Marvel superhero. You know, like, what? What are you? You know? And so, it’s in that I mean, I’m pointing, I’m talking about myself in here as well, you know, just to be clear, it’s like, what? What are you telling yourself, about taking time away? What’s What are you telling yourself? And what are you telling others? And what’s the difference in here? You know, and what’s gonna result from that? Okay, those five leaders on your team who keep taking vacation? Do they? What do they believe about the opportunity for promotion? If they keep taking vacation? Like a human would? You know? Anyway, so I’d say there’s, there’s so much in there, Kim, it’s, I know that for me, you know, sleep, I’ll just go back to that. But it’s related to me, it’s like, sleep so often is how I just want to read my book. Right? But it’s time, it should be time to turn off the light and go to bed for me to get the sleep I need. And so I’ve watched you know, these what, what am I telling myself, you know, on the one hand, it’s like, John, you deserve this time. That’s a powerful message. You deserve this. You’ve had a busy day, you’ve been serving others, you deserve this. And then on the other hand, is like, well, but you deserve to be rested in the morning. That’s the way in which you’re going to be able to enjoy your day, have the, have the most feeling of fulfillment, and be able to serve all those people at a higher level. If you’re exhausted, what are you going to do? So it’s sort of I’ve talked about this sort of, like, you know, angel and devil on my shoulders, in a sense, like, and I’ll admit, like, sometimes I just hear it, and I smile, and I’m like, I’m not sure how to navigate this. But someone, someone helped me out with it. Like that one in particular, somebody said, Well, so how much sleep do you want to get? I’m like, Yeah, you know, seven, eight hours, somewhere in there. Okay. And I said, But I rebel against the notion that I have to get seven or eight. I rebel against that. And they’re like, Okay, well, how do you want to feel in the morning? I want to feel rested. Okay, well, what’s going to have you feeling rested? And there’s something about, there’s something about like being told by an expert, you need seven or eight hours in if that expert is me. Right? And then there’s something about how do I want to feel? How do I actually want to experience my day? That for me, how do I want others to experience me? How do I want to show up For others, and what’s it like when I don’t get the sleep I need? Everybody knows at some level, I think we just, you know, what is it? You know, denial, denial, like just a river in Egypt?

Kim Meninger Right? No, that’s really true. And I wonder, as I’m hearing you talk to you, do you think, and you can probably speak from personal experience as well as just from what you’re seeing out there in the world? And as you’re talking with clients, like, do you think it’s possible for an individual to effect change in the system today? Like, would you be able to do the job that you were doing as CEO with this new mindset and this new way of operating? Or was the environment to fixed to allow for people to take more control of their own relationship to their work? And I’m sure that’s dependent on environment, but I just wonder for people thinking like, Nope, that wouldn’t fly here. How much personal influence do we have when we feel like the environment is stuck in this old way of thinking about things?

John Chilkotowsky Hmm, a lot of thoughts on that one? For sure. Well, so my first when you, when you asked me the first part of that I, instantly I was like, yes, you know, change has to start with an individual. Right? So I saw, I would say, there’s always that opportunity, there was something I was exposed to recently, and they was talking about the formula of survival for organizations, which is learning is equal to or greater than the rate of environmental change. So they wrote it out as like, you know, l greater than or equal to Ec. And so that was the other thing that came up here for me in your question was, I think, when I won’t say if, but when we engage in this sort of quest for change of the system, or whatever it might be. It, it has to start with us. And it has to, it has to be this commitment. I’ve had heard it laid out, as you know, there’s a project we engage in. And then there’s a curriculum that we engage in. So if I say, I want to change this aspect of the organization, let’s just say, and, and it’s something meaningful to me, right? It’s not something I feel I can currently do. There isn’t an equal and required curriculum, learning for me. I need to learn and change and be different in order to make that thing happen. And I believe that, like the act of leadership, is that commitment to, you know, putting the stake in the ground and saying, I really want this change. I mean, it could be I want this sales quota, but I’m saying, you know, it’s something meaningful that we can’t do right now. And so when we embark on that, whether we acknowledge it or not, there is an there is something in us saying, I’m going to need to change. That’s scary, but also exciting, right? And there’s something about that, somebody said, anxiety is excitement without the breath. Right? So, you know, I think about that, right? So so I think when somebody says, I want to enact change here, somehow, there is a requirement of a commitment of how, how much am I willing to learn and change myself? How fast am I willing to? Because it’s, it’s a commitment, right? And then, when we embark on that, when we change, we might see that, do you know what, I’m not sure how any amount of change in me is going to result in the change I want to see here. But I don’t know that we can know that ahead of time. I think so. Right? So if I say like, it’s just too much, and I haven’t really taken on much of any personal change. I don’t have a VISTA. I don’t, I don’t have the viewpoint, in my opinion, to look at this and know. Whereas if I’ve put in the time and the change, and I’m like, Yep, I see where I could be effective here. I think it’s going to take five years to do what I really want. I think my time would be better spent somewhere else in a more supportive environment. So that’s my sense of it can.

Kim Meninger Yeah, yeah. And I’ve been thinking about that a lot, too, is just that, that natural tendency that we have to jump to the conclusion that something is not possible, or, you know, whatever that fixed mindset is in the moment and you Like we’re talking about in this case of, no, it’s not possible that I can take care of myself and stay successful in the environment that I’m in. But I think that’s a really good point, too, is well, first of all, you don’t know that yet, because you haven’t put in the work. But also, if you do put in the work, and you get to a point where you realize, I’ve confirmed my hypothesis, right, that this is not going to be possible, that doesn’t mean that you failed, it just probably gives you more data about well, maybe this isn’t the right environment for me, right that this is, this is not the only place where I can bring my strengths and talents, maybe I want to find a place that allows me to take care of myself and achieve my goals at the same time.

John Chilkotowsky Yeah, yeah. And could I kind of share one more thing in here? Yeah, please. Yeah. So? Well, again, currently, as we’re speaking, there’s like layoffs all over the place in multiple industries, right? And so whether I’m working with someone who has been laid off, or is seeing every, you know, good friends and co-workers be laid off around them, or someone in a situation where they report into, let’s just say, a CEO of a prominent company, and that CEO is not, is not going to allow the change that these people want that conversation about what good work can I do here, for the sake of my team, and for the sake of myself, because just to be resilient in the face of, you know, sort of being pulled two different ways. I think that conversation is a vital one right now. Because I see, I see a lot of people jumping to another organization, because things are tough right now. And sometimes that’s the right move. And sometimes it’s the move just for movement sake, and sticking it out a little longer. And thinking about not the next move, but two moves away. So what could you do right now, before you make that jump somewhere else that’s going to set you up? And how is that next move setting you up for what’s next? What experiences do you want in your career that you haven’t had? You know, that’s just from a worksite to it. But those conversations, I think are right now. So vital, with things changing so fast. Again, people feeling either like oh, my gosh, I got laid off, or while everybody about me got laid off? What is the organization now? Something, something about that just feels like really vital conversations right now.

Kim Meninger I think you’re absolutely right. And I agree with you when it comes to this idea of not leaving too prematurely. Obviously, if you are, if it’s toxic, if you can barely make it through the day, that’s a different story. But if you haven’t developed, let’s call them the boundaries, the habits, the behaviors that are going to help you to navigate your environment in a more empowered way, you’re going to take those same habits and behaviors with you to wherever you go next. And now you’re just going to be in an environment where you don’t feel as connected, you feel that much more pressure to prove yourself. So it’s unlikely you’re going to achieve the goals that have brought you to that new place in the first place. So you’re absolutely right. I think if you once you decide this is maybe not the right place, for me, it’s the perfect sandbox, to start investing in yourself and in the sort of skills and strength that you want to bring with you wherever you go in your career because now you’re it the stakes aren’t as high right? Like, I’ve already decided I’m probably gonna leave here anyway. So it gives me some room for as you said earlier experimentation.

John Chilkotowsky Yeah, you know, what you just said, Kim, I was just thinking of, I’m not sure if you’ve experienced this yet or not. But in, you know, in giving some kind of, you know, 360-degree feedback for leaders, I’ve, I’ve heard it now coming in more where there’s the opportunity to include a spouse or significant other and that feedback. So in other words, it’s totally through, it’s sponsored through the workplace, but in having these people outside the, you know, air quotes, work environment, sometimes, and I will claim this for myself as well, sometimes being able to see how the pattern isn’t just a work pattern. It’s a life pattern. Sometimes when we see over in the personal side of things, you know, outside of work, like Oh, I’m doing that there as well. And it’s having an impact there as well. Can be the now we get traction. Now. We’re like, Oh, I’m motivated to change. You know, I could kind of torture myself and others a little bit at work, but I’m not willing to do that outside. The people who I’m closest with Yeah, so it’s, I just I find so that again, bringing that humaneness to work, something about including that other voice or voices outside of work is starting to work its way in I, I find that very encouraging. I think that’s, I think it’s a step in the right direction.

Kim Meninger I would agree. I haven’t not seen that yet. But I think that’s a great idea. It also acknowledges our wholeness as humans, right, that we’re not just these workers who have this compartmentalized life outside of the work environment. And it does sort of give you a wake-up call as it relates to your overall values of am I being the person that I want to be not just the professional that I want to be? Yeah, wow, this has been such a powerful conversation, John, I really appreciate it. I feel like you and I could keep going for, for hours, because there’s so much to what we’re talking about. But in the interest of time, where can people find you if they want to learn more about your work?

John Chilkotowsky Yeah, easiest is my website, www Northstar dash That’s easiest.

Kim Meninger And then I will make sure that, that we link to that in the show notes along with your bio as well. But thank you so much. Any final thoughts you want to share?

John Chilkotowsky Oh, it was a pleasure, Kim, this is, you know, I’ll say that this topic, you know, sometimes the topic of, you know, impostor syndrome or confidence. It’s, it’s everywhere. And yet, I feel like right now in particular, I think it’s, it’s bubbling up as there’s so much change, again, in the environment and organizations and, and so I think it’s I don’t think we’re done with it. I don’t think we figured it out. I think it’s, I think it’s a work in progress that might be even more important right now. So thank you for having me here. Kim, for the conversation.

Kim Meninger Oh, my pleasure, John. Thank you.

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