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  • Kim Meninger

Rethinking Leadership

Updated: May 12, 2023

Rethinking Leadership

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about new ways to think about leadership in a changing world. My guest this week, Keith Rovinelli, is an HR consultant and firefighter who shares his views on leadership, including the importance of kindness and service to others, and how he’s able to transfer lessons and experiences between his two full-time roles. Keith also shares his passion for yoga and how he went from hiding that from his fellow firefighters to bringing it openly to the fire station.

About My Guest

Keith Rovinelli is a dog loving, yoga practicing, self-proclaimed chef who uses his innate curiosity to connect, listen to and share his unique perspective with others. He finds inspiration in building leadership skills that create thriving communities. As an HR consultant, Keith leverages his experience as a full-time firefighter to serve a portfolio of clients including Fortune 100 companies.


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Kim Meninger Hi, Keith, it is such a pleasure to see you again. I know you and I have had some previous conversations. And I’m excited to continue the conversation, especially in a way that we could share with the listening audience. So before we dive in, I’d love to invite you to introduce yourself.

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, thank you so much, Kim. Likewise, pleasure to see you again. My name is Keith Rovinelli and I’m a full-time firefighter and Leadership HR consultant. I’m a dog-loving, yoga-practicing, self-proclaimed chef, those are, those are my, my three major hobbies, I’d say. And what I do and what I tried to hone in on it as my craft is just helping build thriving communities, through cultivating leadership skills through, through individuals. So as a full-time firefighter, or an HR consultant, I try to blend those two careers together, to ultimately just help people become better versions of themselves to become better co-workers to become better spouses, better husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, friends. And that’s, that’s what I do.

Kim Meninger So I want to spend a moment on that, because I think it’s so fascinating that you have this dual career, first of all, just from a time perspective, because we all feel so busy with our one career, and you’ve got two, but I also love that you are thinking intentionally about how they connect. So can you tell us more about the journey? Like how did you end up in a place where you have these two careers that on the surface may seem very different, but that you’ve actually thought about how there is transferability there?

Keith Rovinelli Certainly. So I started my career in HR as a recruiter about, you know, probably 12 to 14 years ago. And, you know, I really loved being a recruiter. And actually, if I even take a step back further, my first job was working at McDonald’s when I was in high school. And when I reflect back at that I was a crew trainer. And so training and developing and helping, that’s how I look at, you know, learning and development and training has always been something I’ve been passionate about. My, my father was a firefighter, my mother was a social worker, both my sisters are social workers, my brother has been in corporate wellness. And I’m a firefighter. Now. So you know, helping people has always been kind of like our family business. So when I look at my career, in the corporate world, it’s always been on that, you know, training and development, a recruiter, which in my mindset was, I was helping people get jobs, it wasn’t about, you know, filling racks and making money, it was helping people, you know, to find their career. So, as I went through that journey in HR, you know, learning development, like I said, talent acquisition, executive development, and there was just something that was missing. And I didn’t know really know what that was exactly. And an organization I was with at the time was just didn’t have the same values that I had. And I was kind of stuck in a rut. And my father said, you know, why don’t you take the test to become a firefighter, you’ve always expressed interest in that, you know, I was kind of hesitant because I always wanted to make a ton of money, and I wanted to, you know, climb up the corporate ladder and do all those things. But at that time of my life, it just, that just didn’t feel right anymore. I didn’t want to do that. That wasn’t what happiness was to me. So I take took the test to become a firefighter. And that process is a pretty lengthy process. So throughout that time, I actually change organizations and it was working for a company that I really loved, I loved the values, and I loved everything about the people there and what I was doing. And then I got the call to become a firefighter. And I had a really tough decision to make it’s do I turn down this opportunity that, you know, a lot of people say it’s, you know, the best job in the world, it’s, you know, hitting the lottery. And I truly do believe that, and I’m thankful, so thankful that, that I went for it. And I didn’t decline that job offer and stay in the corporate world, because I was able to do both, and continue to do both today. So as I’ve gone on that journey, I’ve realized that the skills that I’ve learned being a firefighter and continue to learn, being part of a high-performing team, I transfer over to the corporate world, and vice versa, all the skills that I learned through my HR career and continued to learn on how to be a leader and how to manage people, I take over to the fire department too so it really is an interesting intersection that I’m still today, you know, constantly trying to evolve and, and say, Okay, here’s what we do at the firehouse, how can I do that in my corporate world, and vice versa? So it’s been a wild journey. I love it. You mentioned you know, how do I have the time and I work 2 24-hour shifts at the fire department. And then the other time I’m working on my project work as an HR consultant. And I think Simon Sinek said it perfectly. Where when we, when we stress, it’s because we’re focusing on work that we’re not passionate about. But when we focus on the work that we’re passionate about, it’s not stressful at all, and that’s how I truly look at things.

Kim Meninger That’s a really good point. I would say too that as a business owner, I work harder work more hours than ever before. But I feel the lowest amount of stress and burnout that I’ve ever felt. So I think when you are doing work that feels meaningfully meaningful to you, that absolutely makes a difference. And I love how at the heart of everything you shared was that fundamental value of service, and that it came from your family, that it’s really embedded in who you are. And I just think that makes such a difference. Obviously, as a firefighter, we, we make that connection automatically, we assume, you know, people who are willing to make those kinds of sacrifices and willing to, to do that, for other people must have some a service orientation. We don’t necessarily think about that when it comes to the corporate world. How does your perspective on leadership sort of guide how you see your whole career and in terms of like the holistic view of these two parts of, of your career, like, tell us more about what you think about leadership and where we are today?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, so within leadership, right, there’s, there’s so many different skills and, and things that you can talk about that would make a good leader. But for me, what I think it boils down to is truly caring about the people around you. And that’s where I think that service mindset that I have comes into play in everything that I do when it comes to coaching leaders. So, if you truly care about your people, and you do all the things that come along with that, then, then that’s going to be a good leader. And there’s so many different aspects that are going to go into that too, with, you know, feedback, communication, driving business, all those things happen, and they’re going to happen. But if you truly care about your people, it’s going to make a lot of things easier. And it’s going to help you with all those managing conflict and everything else that comes along, you know, leading a team. So truly being a kind person, which, for me, the difference between kindness, and being nice is being genuine. So a genuine person, a genuine leader that cares about their people, ultimately, is the foundation for what I think is a successful leader.

Kim Meninger So we’ve obviously been through a lot as a world over the last few years with a pandemic and everything. Do you see a big difference today? And how people think about leadership and this idea of really caring about people than pre-pandemic?

Keith Rovinelli Absolutely, because I mean, as you see it with the great resignation, right, a lot of, a lot of people are leaving, because they’re, they’re in toxic, toxic cultures. And they’re not happy with the people that they’re working with, or their leaders within the organization. So that, that mental health that, you know, ability to truly connect with people was so front and center. And a lot of the work that I focused on during the pandemic was creating solutions for mental health awareness for checking in with their people asking those questions, how are you doing it and truly meaning it’s so it’s at the forefront, and there’s no running away from it. And I know that there’s a lot of senior leaders or I don’t want to say, senior who’s actually a lot of more tenured leaders that have been around for a while that struggle with this. Because in their mind, that’s not what they were brought up. That’s not how they were led. So it’s not their fault, because everything that we do in life is based off of how we were brought up the values that were instilled in us and what we were used to, right? So as anything with change, this is just another one of those things. And, you know, there’s a lot of leaders that I deal with that say like, Oh, why can’t they just, you know, get their work done? And now I have to worry about their feelings, I have to worry about this, I have to worry about that. And it’s like, yeah, you do, right? And, and if you don’t worry about that they’re going to leave or even harvest, they’re going to be disengaged, and they’re going to stay.

Kim Meninger That’s so interesting because I would agree that that’s one of the biggest roadblocks to this kind of change. And, and I liked that you’re sympathetic to exit. Do you think that it’s, it can be really frustrating, but it’s true, we have had a huge paradigm shift in a very short window of time, and a lot of people are having trouble catching up to this new way of thinking about things? And I guess, do you have thoughts on how perhaps people within organizations can try to influence change, given that backdrop? Like are there things that you have found to be helpful as talking points or ways to kind of bring people on the journey who may be balking at the idea of take care of our people? Right, like, Just do your job?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I focus on is currently working, whatever that is, right? So if you’re not worried about your people’s welfare and checking in with them, is it currently working? Do you have high turnover? Are you driving sales or whatever it is your businesses? And if the answer is no to that, then it’s okay. Well, let’s take a step back and let’s try to figure out what is missing. You know, if you have a well-oiled machine and your people are happy and Everything’s working well, then you probably are taking care of your people. But if you’re, if you’re experiencing something where you’re using someone services like mine or, or you’re constantly having to deal with turnover, then that’s, that’s something you need to look at. And I think it’s. it’s hitting those numbers straight in the face with somebody and taking a look at that to realize, okay, if it’s not working, then we have to change something,

Kim Meninger I think is a really good point too. Because I always think about feedback in the context of if you’re going to present somebody with feedback, or you’re going to ask them to do something differently from the way that they’ve always done it, you have to have a compelling reason to do that, right? And if what they value is business results, if what they productivity across their team, that’s what’s going to be what’s going to get their attention, right, maybe not this idea that, Oh, we should be focusing more on the human side of work, which I wholeheartedly believe, but more so of how’s that working for you? Like you said?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, and a lot of, lot of times too, that I like to deal with, or talk about with this is because I hear a lot, oh, I don’t have time, I don’t have time to have to check in with all of my people or have these conversations, we’re so busy. We’re supporting the business, or we are the business and, and one thing I always like to do is, I’ll grab the cell phone, I’ll say, pull up your cell phone, let me see your screen time. You know, like you have the time and I truly do feel that, you know, and, and yeah, we need our mindless scrolling, and we need our Netflix and chill. But, you know, are you using your time wisely to connect with your people? And I heard Marcus Buckingham speak earlier this year. And one thing he said that hit home with me is if you don’t have time to check in with your people, every single week, and that’s everybody that directly reports to you. You’re either managing too many people, or you’re not an effective leader, that really hit home to me, because, again, I know everybody’s busy, and there’s so much going on. But if you can take those 510 minutes, that’s really all it is to check in with your people to say, you know, what, what are some obstacles? What can I help you with, you know, I hear you, I feel you, I see you, that’s going to free up all your time down the back end, you know, when you deal with conflict and, and disengagement and feedback, if you have those built-in, you know, built trusted relationships, it clears up all the stuff down the road that you won’t have time to manage. So I truly believe that as a philosophy.

Kim Meninger I couldn’t agree with you more. And I think about time, too, as we all think we don’t have enough time. You’re right. If you look at our screen time, there’s a lot of wasted time. But I also think we don’t have time not to write because you’re absolutely right. It may feel like an investment of time proactively, that we don’t have the luxury of, of having available to us. But you’re going to use that time one way or another. You’re either going to use it in a proactive trust building relationship building way or you’re going to use it in, you know, having to make clean up people’s messes because you didn’t your expectations or re-backfilling people who leave because they don’t feel respected or the time is going to come. It’s a matter of how you choose to spend it.

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, exactly. And it’s tough for leaders to see that upfront. Because they’re so busy, like you said, and, you know, they’re, they’re running organizations, and they’re running teams. So it isn’t, I don’t it’s like a tough sell to them to say like, if you put in the time now it’s going to work out. But I use the analogy of getting fit and losing weight. Like, you know, if I wake up Monday morning, and I say, All right, I’m gonna eat a salad today, and I’m gonna lose 10 pounds. That’s not reality, right? You know, it takes time to drop that weight. And you have to put in that investment upfront so that you can see the long-term goal down the road. And it’s really challenging for managers to understand that. But, you know, it really does work. And one other another quote that I really love, I’m big on quotes, is from Debbie Millman. And she says busy is a decision. And what I love about that is that you can say, I’m too busy to talk to my people, or I’m too busy to do this. But it’s a decision you’re making. And it could be a good decision because you’re focusing on other things that you prioritize. But when you say I’m busy, it is a decision, and it’s not something that should be taken lightly.

Kim Meninger That’s a really good point. And one thing I think about a lot too, in the context of what you’re talking about, and I think you would be, you would have an interesting perspective on this, given your, your work, is a lot of people were thrown into management, they didn’t want to be there, right? They were promoted because they were really good at what they did. The only avenue to achieve greater status, higher compensation, whatever career advancement, you’re, you know, the path looks like within their organizations. So there are a lot of reluctant managers right now who feel burdened by the fact that they have to take care of their people when really all they want to do the work. And so I’m curious how you see the either need for or the current state around just developing managers because it’s a new way of I had read somewhere a couple of years ago, in the midst of the pandemic that, you know, managers are now being asked to be social workers, right? They’re being asked to play roles that they never signed up for. They’ve never been trained for, they don’t even want. So how do you think about that piece of things?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, and I don’t think there is like a one, one solution for all of it, right, because there’s so many different aspects for new managers and what they have to deal with, especially coming out of a pandemic. But one thing that I’m really passionate about is, is helping individual contributors learn management skills and leadership skills before they get into that seat. So whether that’s some type of, you know, program where you’re giving him those skills before they’re ready, either formalized or informal. So self-paced learning activities, depending on the scope of your business, if you have like a, you know, learning management system where they can go in and take courses on their own. Curating curated content, I think is huge for, for large organizations, or even small organizations, because you can google or what is an effective leader, and you’re gonna get so much information that it ultimately shut someone down from wanting to actually to learn because there’s too much so how can you as a leader, or you as a learning and development function, or as an HR function, curate content so the individuals can, can take it as, as they see fit. And they’re starting to learn these skills throughout their career paths. So when that time comes, where they’re in that seat, or they get promoted, and they might not be ready, hopefully, they’ve had a few learnings along the way, that they’re not going into it completely, completely cold. And then of course, you’re gonna have to continue to build on those skills, but at least they have some type of foundational groundwork. And a an example that I can give that from actually being a firefighter for this is that we have a the traditional Fire Department, and I’ll speak to mine is there’s an officer in every truck. So at my firehouse, we have two trucks, one has a captain on it, and one as a lieutenant. So those are the leaders, those are the managers, right, and we’re the firefighters on that truck. So when one of them is out, you know, sick or on vacation, if they don’t hire an overtime officer, then one of our firefighters becomes the officer for that shift. And now you’re the leader, you’re the manager, the officer on that truck. So what, what I’ve seen in my firehouse or my department is some of these officers Ville, during a shift, they’ll work with us as firefighters to be acting as a lieutenant or acting as a captain. So when the time comes, they’re out, we’ve already experienced some of that. So they’ll say, Hey, you jump up and ride the front of the truck, I’m gonna jump in the back of the truck, and you kind of lead this call with me being there. So I can help you if you make a mistake. That way when they’re out and they say, Hey, Rovinelli you’re gonna be the Acting Lieutenant today, it’s not the first time I’ve sat in that front seat, and I’ve done it with my leader behind me as a support. So now when I get into that front seat, it’s not Oh, my God, I’ve never done this before. I’m completely new to it help me, it’s okay, I’ve got some experience now. And I’m still going to need help, you know, on the back end, but it’s not the first time I’ve been in this seat.

Kim Meninger That’s a really good example. And I think it all comes back to what we’ve been talking about, about that proactive nature of preparing for whatever it is, right? So to be on the lookout, if you are a manager for how can I empower my team? Before they step into formally right circumstances? How can I send them into maybe I take them into a meeting with me or send them in my place? Or you know, I give them a team lead or a project leader role so that you get a flavor for it? And also the so do I want to do this? Is this work I actually want to do more of or is this out of alignment with where I see my strengths?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah. And if you’re not doing that, as a leader, then you’re managing and you’re not leading, right? So if you don’t think you can trust your team enough to step into a meeting for you to be the project lead, then what’s missing there is it’s is it more skills that you need to provide them so they’re ready for that. Or is it you as a manager that need to just let loose and just, just trust your team and, and they might fail, which is completely fine. And then that’s a learning moment, right for you and for the person that failed. And then you can build upon that, but not giving them the opportunity at all is, is not doing anyone good? It’s not doing the individual good. It’s not doing yourself as a manager good and overall the organization.

Kim Meninger Absolutely. And so I want to, I want to to get back to you for a moment because we’re having a good conversation at more of a macro level. But I really want to understand how you have felt about playing this dual role. One that you’ve certainly consciously made a point to integrate, but have you ever struggled with self-doubt? Have you ever struggled with impostor syndrome or any kind of challenges as it relates to your confidence?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, I haven’t you know, I never, I never was thought about it as imposter syndrome until actually view it, you and I met and then I started to think about it more. And like, I guess I had had it, I just never labeled it that and I kind of move through it. But, you know, the story that I can share with that is, like I mentioned in my intro, I’m a big, I’m a big yoga guy, I love to practice yoga. And when I got on the fire department, you know, that was something that I would never dream of even telling people that I did, let alone practice yoga at the firehouse. And I’m at the firehouse for 24-hour shifts. And if I work, you know, an overtime shift, I could be there for 48 straight hours. And you know, I love to practice yoga. So, when I first started again, I would never, I would never tell people I did yoga, I had this fear that maybe they would judge me or, you know, they’d be like, you know, what is this yoga stuff, because I was like that too, or before I started practicing when, you know, people in my life, like I practice yoga, I’m like, Oh, you stretch. To me, that’s what I thought yoga was. So you know, throughout my journey, you know, and just being more self-aware and more vulnerable. You know, I ultimately got over that. And then I would practice yoga at the firehouse, but I would still do it behind closed doors, you know, I’d go into the dorm room, you know, and kind of shut the door, and so no one would see me. And then now, not only have I practice yoga at the fairest in front of people posted on my social media, I got a yoga instructor that specializes in yoga for first responders and the benefit of first responders to do an one-hour presentation on what the benefits of yoga is for first responders. And I set that up for my entire department. So all four groups had to go through it. And I got some jokes because it’s a joking culture, you know, keep the yo-yo guy bring it someone into to try to make us do yoga, and things like that. But when I reflect on that, it was all about me thinking people were going to judge me. And that’s not the case. You know, I try to, I try to think now that like, no one really cares about what you do. We, in our own mind, we think everyone’s going to care. And it’s like, that’s not reality, knowing that people care about themselves, and sure you care about people. But you know, it’s all, it was all in my head, really, because once I started practicing, or even getting, you know, this presentation for our department, I had more people reach out to me on the side, like, Hey, thanks for doing this, this is awesome. I’ve always kind of wanted to do it, but didn’t really know where to start. And then of course, I got the people making bacon, some jokes, and it’s all in good fun. And, and that was like a real aha moment. For me, it’s like, wait, that was all in my own head that self-doubt. And it’s really, you know, don’t take things personally, no one really cares what you’re going to do. And you’re gonna, if you can impact one person positively, then it’s all worth it.

Kim Meninger I love that story so much. And I’m so glad you shared it here. Because I just think that is such a great example of the very natural self-doubt that we feel when we’re, we feel different from people around us, right? So it’s easy to assume I’m in this particular culture, they’re not going to accept something different, especially something that might feel a little bit like woo-woo, or, you know, whatever you want to call it. And so it would have been really easy to just compartmentalize that side of yourself, not ever revealed it. And then, you know, you would have felt safe, but you wouldn’t felt authentic. But instead, you were able to get to a place where you, you not only owned it, but you actually created an experience for the people around you so that they could decide if they wanted to be part of it as well. And I’m imagining that that has had an influence on the culture, right? It’s not just a simple. You know, now everybody knows this about me. But now I have other people who want to do that can feel safe to do it as well and can ask you questions, and it can be part of a like an open conversation. And I think it’s just a perfect example of how if you decide to face the fear, to take the risk to be the leader in that situation, then it can have benefits not just to you but to other people, too.

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, exactly. And that’s what really fuels me. I mean, probably about an hour before we jumped on this call, I had a fellow firefighter call me up and tell me that he started his day this morning with 1010 minutes of meditation. And he was asking me about yoga resources. And so that to me was like, that’s why I am vulnerable, and I want to share, you know, whatever it is that I have, and I want to tell people to do the same. Because when you can make that impact with just one person, it makes you feel so good that you want to continue to do it.

Kim Meninger Do you have any? Because Yoga is a perfect example of this, but there could be and it we could substitute any number of things for yoga, right? So if there are people listening are thinking, Gosh, I’ve been thinking about something in my own life and bringing that more outwardly into the open. Do you have any advice for people who be around like what that first step might be? Like? How do they think about breaking through that fear?

Keith Rovinelli For me one thing that, that the strategy I use is I tell people so. So I just launched, you know, a tic-toc this past weekend and I finally posted a are a couple of videos on there. And it’s and I haven’t done it in a while, like I wanted to let me back up I don’t want to. I don’t like creating that content for Tiktok. But a lot of people like you have something and if you weren’t really want to help people that’s the avenue you need to do it. So my Okay, in my mind, I got to do it. So why did I finally do it this weekend was because I kept telling people, Hey, I downloaded Tik Tok. But I haven’t posted anything yet. Hey, I’m gonna do it soon. And now as I started to do that people hadn’t done it yet, have you done it yet. And now if I don’t follow through with it, now, I’m not being impeccable with my word. So that’s the strategy that I’ve been taking lately is like, tell people, you’re gonna do something, because then if you don’t do it, you’re a fraud. So. So that would be one thing that I recommend is just to say, you’re going to start doing it and be impeccable with your words. So then you actually finally have to do it. But also just like, just realize, you know, whatever it is you want to do. Don’t worry about the people that might judge you. Think about the people that you’re going to help. And if you can focus on that, then you hopefully, you’ll be able to make that next step. because not everyone’s going to love whatever it is you want to do, right? But there’s going to be some people that do and those are the people that you should worry about.

Kim Meninger I love that. And I think, you know, it may feel like an oversimplification. We are all emotional beings, we care about how other people think about us. But when somebody else judges you, it tells you so much more about them than it tells you about you. Right. And so you mentioned the light hearted Joe say it’s a joking culture. And I’m sure there were people who were giving you a hard time just for the fun of it. And then there may be people in any environment that are a little bit more. I don’t know, the tougher in their criticism or in their judgment. And it’s really hard for us to not take that personally or respond to it in emotional ways. But those are not people who we, like you said, right? Like the right people will be responsive to what you’re trying to do. And usually that reflects an insecurity on their part because maybe they don’t like yoga, and that’s totally fine. But that doesn’t, the fact that they’re actually responding in overtly offensive or, you know, critical ways tells you a lot more about them.

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, certainly. And I could share another story with that. So when I got this, this yoga presentation put together for our department, it wasn’t clearly communicated on exactly what it was. So when people saw it on the training calendar, they thought we were going to be practicing yoga. And so there was a lot more of a negative response with that, as opposed to them thinking it was just a presentation. And so specifically, we I was at a training a different training with other guys on my department. And someone, you know, had, had a, had a comment for me a pretty negative comment. And in I reacted to it, and I call this personnel, we kind of had an argument, and I walked away from it, not feeling happy at all, like I can’t believe I reacted the way that I did. You know, I shouldn’t take things personally, this is just his view on yoga, or whatever it is. But, you know, we, we had words and, and after, you know, I apologize to them, and you know, listen to him and where he heard where he was coming from. And we have a great relationship now, and nothing we did before. But what you said about, you know, not taking it personally, because it’s really hard, because we are emotional beings, I fall victim to it, and I did within the last couple of months. So it’s being able to kind of take that step back. And like, you know, you’re right. It’s not a reflection of me, I can’t take this personally, whatever this person has going on whatever their values and beliefs and experiences are, is what they believe in. And I can’t, I can’t take that personally, I can only just be the best version of myself. And if they want to come along for the ride, I can help them and if they don’t, that’s fine. There’s, there’s so many other people out there that hopefully, I can reach.

Kim Meninger Absolutely. And I think one thing that’s really important about what you said too, is to, to, that’s part of the journey is for us to acknowledge that we are going to fall into that it is who we are there gonna be days when we’re just tired. And we don’t have the same strength to be able to resist some of these things, or stress, other things that are, that are going on. And so part of it is recognize when that happened, and ask myself like, what’s the next step that’s in alignment with who I want to be? Right. And that means revisiting a conversation and letting people know Hey, that didn’t go the way I wanted it to. Like that deepens trust and relationships too.

Keith Rovinelli Right? Yeah, I do a lot of self-reflection. And I think I probably got that from, from yoga, but you know, I’ll look back and go, What happened to me in that moment? What was the trigger? How did I feel how did I react? And then if I enjoyed that entire thing, then okay, I did what I should have done and great. And if I’m like, oh, I should have done something else. I should have done this. I should have reacted that way. I like To take that time to think about so because we’re going to be in that situation again, right? And how you handle that situation moving forward, ultimately, I think defines you as a person and how you either grow or you don’t grow.

Kim Meninger Yeah, absolutely. And, you know,I think that’s what’s really important as a takeaway, too, is, there’s no perfection here.

Keith Rovinelli We all have flaws, right?

Kim Meninger Right. We’re never gonna get to a point where we handle all of this perfectly. And the best that we can do is that reflection that you’re talking about is to say, not from a place of really harsh self-flagellation, firstly, but more for so from a place of what can I learn from this so that you can do better next time if we get caught up in the abuse, get too caught up in the, in the critic and the self, this sort of self-blaming? Yeah, process it in a way that we actually learn from and then can take that with us. And so I think it’s really important how we’re doing that reflection. So, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I know you started a tick tock I don’t know what it is channel, I don’t even use…

Keith Rovinelli A handle, if you will. Yes.

Kim Meninger So where can people find you if they will follow you and learn more?

Keith Rovinelli Yeah, so you can follow me or find me on LinkedIn, Keith Rovinelli, and then on Instagram or now TikTok, it’s fireproof underscore leaders. And that’s where you know, it’s, it’s a beginning of my journey. So if you, if you look me up, you’ll see some leadership content, some personal content on my Instagram, but it’s really that’s my that’s why I am it’s just whatever I’m feeling in the moment, you know, I’ll post or I’ll talk about and, like you mentioned, we’re all humans, I have my flaws and I’m just trying to get better every day and trying to help people get better every day. So you know, come follow me on my journey and you know, provide me feedback because I have no idea what I’m doing with this video content. And even with like the, the leadership philosophies, and whatever I post, its, you know, I consume a lot of content. So you know, I’m constantly reading and podcasting and trying to learn from other people, but it’s just my thoughts and what I think I’m just one person and you know, if you agree with me, great and if you disagree with me great too because that’s how I’m gonna get better and continue to hone on my craft and help people.

Kim Meninger I love it. Thank you so much, Keith. This has been such a great conversation as always.

Keith Rovinelli Thank you, Kim, honored to be on your show.

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