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  • Kim Meninger

Talking About Race in the Workplace

Updated: May 12, 2023

Talking About Race in the Workplace

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about having a conversation about race in the workplace. For many of us, talking about race is uncomfortable because it makes us feel vulnerable or insecure. But as my guests this week point out, avoiding these conversations and shying away from real opportunities for greater inclusion and belonging can ruin people’s lives. This week, I talk with Suman Kapur and Tiffany Castagno, consultants who collaborated in 2020, after the murder of George Floyd, to create a conversation series about race that offers people a safe space to explore deeper questions and better understand each other. Here we talk about how to think about bringing these conversations to the workplace and why it’s so important that we do so.

About My Guests:

Tiffany Castagno is CEO & Founder of CEPHR, LLC, a Human Resources Consulting Firm that supports Small to Mid-sized Businesses to build their infrastructures-to-scale, strong teams, and a strong Employer Brand and Culture.

Throughout her 14-year HR career, Tiffany has supported organizations of all sizes and industries and is passionate about creating safe workplaces and Communities under DEI principles. Her Why is building more psychologically safe organizations and Cultures to support the people and processes within organizations.

Tiffany is Co-Author of a Children’s Book, “Can a Zebra Change Its Stripes?” that teaches children about embracing difference and uncovers the importance of acceptance and what it means to make diversity our strength. Tiffany enjoys serving her Community and believes that together is better.

Suman Kapur is a Professional Development Consultant, dedicated to supporting individuals and organizations through conflict management and culture change initiatives with a distinct focus on the values of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB). Suman approaches her work with attention toward self-care, compassion, empathy, collaboration, and awareness, all of which she recognizes as essential for transformation to a more just and inclusive society.

With her unique and human-centered approach, Suman focuses on co-created processes which empower leaders and employees and support all aspects of organizational culture. Suman works strategically and inclusively from data gathering to strategic planning, from designing and implementing workshops to facilitating Courageous Conversations.

Suman believes that lived and intersectional experiences play a key role in each individual’s journey, affecting everything from their personal commitment to transformation. Her own lived experiences and intersectionality have led her to become a champion for creating robust cultures rich with inclusion and belonging. Suman collaborates with clients knowing that a deep and lasting impact can reach beyond organizational walls, positively impacting the broader Community.

Suman has supported clients in a variety of industries including environmental, mental health, technology, and other industries in both the private and not-for-profit sectors.

Suman holds an MS in Conflict Analysis and Resolution from George Mason University and the Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter Institute of Peace and Conflict Resolution. In addition, she has a professional certification in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion from the University of Southern Florida and she is a facilitator for the Google sponsored #IamRemarkable workshops. Suman is currently working to complete professional certifications in DISC Profile Assessments (July, 2022) and Women in Leadership Certification from Cornell University (June, 2022). She lives in the Greater Washington, DC area with her husband and two children.


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Kim Meninger Okay, I am so excited that we’re finally having this conversation today. And before we go any further, I want to start by inviting each of you to introduce yourselves. And so Suman, I’m going to turn to you first to let us know a little bit about you. And you know, kind of what you do and why you’re here.

Suman Kapur Great. Thank you, Kim. And thank you for having Tiffany and I here today. So a little bit about myself. I actually call myself an accidental entrepreneur, I never planned to own my own business. But that’s a conversation for another time. I was a mediator, I have a master’s in conflict analysis and resolution and did mediation, corporate mediation, for about 10 years before I purposefully left my career to raise my family. I started Well Balanced Solutions as actually a virtual assistant business that grew into an online business management company where I helped small businesses with the back end of their, of their companies. And over the last three years, I’ve really grown my business more as a professional development consultant. So really work to support individuals and organizations through conflict management and culture change, really, with the distinct focus on the values of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. I do, I co-create processes that empower leaders and employees, I support all sorts of diversity and inclusion processes, and really help improve culture in the workplace. On a personal note, I’ve got two kids. I have a senior in high school. So that’s a pretty interesting time. And I have my daughter who just started middle school. So we have a lot of milestones going on here, and I’m married to my college sweetheart. That’s a little bit about me.

Kim Meninger Every time you introduce yourself, Suman, I learn something new about you. I always love hearing your story. So thank you.

Tiffany Castango Thank you. So I’m Tiffany Castagno and I’m CEO and founder of CEPHR LLC, which is an acronym for Cultivating the Evolution of Professional HR. And I too am a somewhat accidental entrepreneur. So I call this my pandemic passion project because I launched CEPHR on May 11 of 2020. I have wanted to do this for about 10 years but wanted the financial security was holding on to a lot of fear and a lack of confidence. And I decided at my last role to take a break. I needed a break after COVID hit, there was a lot going on trying to navigate all the regulations and all of those things. And so I ended up helping some family and friends while I was trying to look for a traditional role, and it just never turned off. And so business has been growing helping to support these small to medium businesses. I actually just got back from doing that this morning. And so that’s a lot of fun, helping them create cultures that stick where people want to stay. So that’s a lot of processes, programs, procedures, like Suman, I help with diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and really helping people build a brand around that, and cultures where people want to stay and feel psychologically safe. So I serve clients in the Pittsburgh area where I’m located now, as well as across the US. And I’m from Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and married to my husband, Michael.

Kim Meninger I love it. And I love the connection that you both have around diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. And while the, the title of this podcast is the Impostor Syndrome Files, I believe that the experience of impostor syndrome is so deeply tied to our experience of inclusion and belonging, in particular, in the workplace. And when we don’t feel that sense of inclusion, we don’t feel like we belong, we’re that much more likely to feel self-doubt or to, to think that we are an impostor. And so that’s why I think these conversations are so important. And one of the reasons I’m so excited to have you both here today is because you both have a conversation on a regular basis too about race, which I am really excited to share with the community that’s listening here. And so I would love to hear a little bit more about how you got to this place where you launched this continuing the race conversation. What, what’s the mission? What are you hoping to get from this experience? And what does it mean to you?

Suman Kapur Tiffany, you want to take that first since I went first last time?

Tiffany Castango Sure. Thank you. This is how this works in practice. So we launched the series after the murder of George Floyd. And so you know, that was a very tragic event where unfortunately the world was watching and Suman and I were checking it on each other to say, you know, how are you doing? People probably don’t know how to come into the workplace and have these conversations. Someone may have just been in a fit of tears before coming to work because these are intense conversations that employers, so whether it’s leaders or another colleague, they don’t know how to have these conversations because they’re not really sure where to start. And so we felt like giving people a place to start would be something we wanted to do. So we just started pressing record with just the two of us and saying, you know, giving out tips, here’s how you can start, we recognize these are difficult conversations, but we want to have a space and help you open up a safe space for folks. And so that’s, that’s how that began. And then we began inviting guests on, as well as guest speakers. I don’t know if there’s anything else Suman would like to add too.

Suman Kapur Thanks for that. No, that’s a great sort of captured everything that we do and how we started, I think I would only think I would add is, you know, for our community, as it’s grown, it sort of has evolved in this place where people just come to let their guard down, right. It’s a place to have the conversations, to share the tips, to figure out how we navigate in the workplace. But that work is exhausting. So it’s a place where people can come and just let that guard down, or, as I like to say, take off that superhero cape, and just take that deep breath and share in a negative, in an experience. I’m just going to put it that way. Share an experience and to learn from each other, and how we can move forward collectively and individually.

Kim Meninger So there are a number of topics that are very emotionally charged, uncomfortable for people to talk about. And I think race is one of the topics at the top of that list. Right? And I think there are a lot of people that want to be part of this conversation but are so afraid of getting it wrong, are so afraid of, you know, just the unknown of stepping into a conversation like this. What, what have you learned from these past couple of years about people’s willingness to engage in this conversation, about their comfort levels? Have you noticed a change over time, like, what are you seeing?

Suman Kapur So, Tiffany, you good if I go first? We’ll just lobby the ball back and forth. [I like it.] So yes, people want to be part of the conversation. And yes, they’re afraid and especially as you hear about cancel culture, and you’re hearing about the Karens, you’re hearing about all these things, it adds more fear in being present and participating in these conversations. What I would say is don’t let that hold you back. Instead, prepare for the conversations, right? Do some internal reflection, do some learning on your own. So you are not coming in blindly into these conversations and expecting an answer, expecting someone else to answer the question for you. Right? Come with some knowledge, do some self-reflection, come with a baseline, and then just sit back and listen. You don’t have to interject or have something to say at every turn. Learn. Just listen. And then if there’s some commonality, or as you’re getting comfortable, share, but share from the place that’s yours. Not that Oh, I’ve seen I’ve heard or this is, but based on my learning, based on what I’ve read, based on what I’m hearing here, how would you… and then ask the question, right? And so it’s really coming for you are doing the baseline learning. And then you want to improve on that learning. That, that’s sort of how I would suggest people come into these conversations. Tiffany, go ahead, add some more.

Tiffany Castango Yeah, I know, I don’t know how much more I can add. I think the basis of coming from your own experience because that uncertainty often can be like Suman said, I heard or your, you might start to speak for people and that’s never a good place to come from. Asking questions is obviously we call them curious questions because it’s very important to come from that place of curiosity and a place of curiosity not because you’re just… general curiosity is great. But in these conversations that can get tricky. You have to be prepared for the fact that someone may not be ready to share that with you. I sit from the perspective of a Black woman, I don’t speak for all Black women. People have to be ready and some people are on different, different edges of what that may look like for them because they’re experiences are different. So we have to be ready to understand that maybe they’re not ready right now. Or maybe they just don’t want to have the conversation. So you have to be ready to accept that as well. But coming from a place of curiosity because you truly want to learn, and you may even have to unlearn and knowing that going in.

Kim Meninger Well, there’s so much about what you’re both saying that I’m thinking is really important to emphasize here. I love that you’re talking about this as almost a continuum, right? It’s not an on or off switch. It’s not one day I’m not in this conversation. And the next day and fully embedded in this conversation. There’s room for people to be on a journey at different stages. And I love what you were saying Suman too about you can tiptoe into it. I can listen, I can be here to, to respectfully learn, and see if there are opportunities for me to connect and to contribute. And also, to your point, Tiffany, to not come in with entitled curiosity is how I would think about it. Right? Like, I may be curious but that doesn’t mean I have a right to someone else’s response if they’re not ready to share that with me yet. I think it’s really important to be aware that just as you may have your own reservations about sharing and navigating these conversations, everyone else will be on a different stage of the journey as well. And that’s part of the process is respecting each other along the way. So what, have you had any surprises? Like anything that you were you’re learning that maybe you didn’t expect when you went into this?

Tiffany Castango I think it’s my turn to start. I, that’s, it’s hard to pin one moment. I think, I think we’ve had a lot of surprises. I think that. Well, I know that we have learned as much and I don’t, I don’t want to speak for Suman, right, based on what we just said. But I think it’s been interesting in that I think we knew we learned, but it’s you, you’re just so surprised by how much you learn each week, and how much each person teaches you. And I think even you know I’ll say for myself, how much I’ve unlearned, or how much, I was surprised that we grew the community to an international community as well. And, and I think the level, the depth of vulnerability that people got to or the fact that we would be helping them solve everyday challenges. That’s those were pleasant, bonus surprises that I wasn’t prepared for, but I’ll take ‘em. I’ll let Suman add on her surprises.

Suman Kapur She took all my surprises. No, really, it was it, I only expected this to be a place for people to just come and maybe gripe, right like to come and just vent. But it has become so much more than that. It’s people really come to our community to ask questions and, and look for solutions. You know, right? People have come and said, Hey, this is what I’m experiencing at the workplace. How can I do better? How can I, you know, give me some tips. And so we have brainstorming sessions, which has been amazing to see the community come together. We’ve had people say, you know that this has really helped them move forward in their career, in their relationships. And I never expected that, right? I just figured it was what was happening in the room was gonna stay in the room, even though it should translate out. So I’m not quite sure why I didn’t think beyond the series. But, you know, to hear people say the level of impact that it’s had on their lives and in their careers. It, it’s, it’s quite rewarding. It’s quite humbling.

Kim Meninger Do you think there’s something about this moment that makes this conversation feel more accessible or more of a priority to people? I’m curious because you had mentioned, Tiffany, that you launched it after the murder of George Floyd. Do you think this conversation would have had the same impact before that?

Tiffany Castango Oh, that is a powerful question. We like those too. Um, I’m having hesitancy around saying no, but I don’t think it would have been as impactful. I mean, I, I’m starting to like, well up a bit. I feel very emotional about the fact that had we not seen somebody be murdered right in front of us, I don’t know, I just it it’s not that that was the one and only thing right, like we, there were others. I think that having that happen in front of people live, it woke people up who were either kind of dormant it’s not that they didn’t care about these things. Or people who maybe, maybe somewhere on the other side, right, but they’re now able to see it in a different way. And I just, there’s all this momentum around these things, yes, some people are doing performative things, checking the box. Suman and I are trying to do our work that way as well to help people move past that. But I think, I don’t think there was a readiness factor before, like there is now. And I think the time is now.

Kim Meninger Yeah. And it’s so, it’s so horrible that it takes something like a, a murder in front of our eyes, like you said, to galvanize us in this way. But I think the legacy of George Floyd is going to be incredible for years to come. Suman, do you have thoughts on timing?

Suman Kapur Um, I agree. I, you know, I don’t think it would have been this deep had it not been for the murder of George Floyd. You know, and I mean, the whole series stemmed from his murder, right? Tiffany and I checking in with each other and wanting to do, make some impact, wanting to create space for people who may not have that space in the workplace. And so would we have eventually reached to creating a series down the road? I don’t know. But I do believe that the timing, now’s the time. And the fact that the conversations are still happening. I mean, we’ve seen racial conversations and this diversity talk happen for decades and decades and decades. I can remember as a young child having these conversations when something bad happened, right? It would be out there, you’d have the conversation and then it got dormant again. But I feel like over the last two years, two and a half years, the conversation has really been staying in the forefront, right, in the forefront of what’s happening in the workplace, in the community. It’s, it might not be as emotional, but companies are still looking to, to bring in DEI consultants, they’re still looking to improve on their mission statements. They’re still looking to improve on processes. It hasn’t gotten quiet. And for the same matter, employees are pushing leadership to say, hey, we want this. What’s going on? I mean, I’ve had a couple of clients where the fire was lit from the employees saying, Hey, I’m getting ready to leave because I’m not feeling ABC. I don’t feel like I’m, I’m I belong here. I don’t feel, we’re not diverse in our thinking in our staff. What’s happening? They’re pushing these questions. And I don’t historically remember that happening. Right? And so yeah, I think this is the time, this is the longest I’ve seen it in the forefront.

Kim Meninger Well, and it’s interesting timing, too, when we think about the pandemic and all that that has brought to the surface in terms of employees’ dissatisfaction with company culture, and rethinking our values and that power balance shift that you’re describing of, I think people finally felt like they had a voice to be able to say, no, this is not working for me. And I’m going to leave if I don’t see what I want to see. It’s probably in some ways driven by generational changes as well. And it’s a really exciting combination of forces that are finally bringing this to a level I think where it extends beyond like you said, Tiffany, the checking of the boxes, right? It feels to me for the first time, like you said, Suman, we’ve been having these conversations for years, but it feels to me like for the first time, there’s an expectation that there will be follow through in ways that we never necessarily thought before. There was always the well, you know, once the particular precipitating event leaves the headlines, then we’ll just kind of go back to the way things were and you know, we’ll bring it up again next time. But this time it really feels like it’s sticking. And I wonder how you think about because you both have been leading this conversation in the community, so to speak, how do you think about bringing conversation like this into the workplace? Do you feel like companies are ready for a conversation about race within the workplace itself and how would you guide them if they were?

Suman Kapur I don’t know whose turn it is. I guess it’s mine. I lost track. So when I co-create processes I actually put in space to have these conversations, right? Like that is part of the big picture is creating space to have these difficult conversations and I always say that they should be facilitated by an outside individual, not by someone who is, you know, internally connected to the organization. But it needs, these conversations need to be part of the big picture in the company. So again, when I’m in co-creating strategic planning around DEI, facilitating courageous conversations around race, or I’ve actually started to move it and make it more broad into the having conversations around DEIB concepts and ideas, not just solely around race because we’ve got LGBTQ conversations that come up. So they need to be part of the big picture. You know, I talk about when, when, when I work with nonprofits, the board needs to have, at their retreat, have these facilitated conversations, so that they know how that is going to impact what’s happening within the organization, right? And so the same when I’m talking to leadership, or the executive team, when you have your employee retreats, or your staff retreats, have these conversations, build out the space for it, because it’s so needed, it’s so wanted, and it, it’s going to be uncomfortable, but you have to sit through that discomfort to get to the end, and the end product is going to be so much more powerful than it was before. So you need to make that space.

Kim Meninger Absolutely. Tiffany?

Tiffany Castango Yeah, I agree. And we’ve been very intentional with the series too. I mean, obviously, it started with George Floyd’s murder. And so it became about race. That was the mission. But it has since expanded borders and, and topics. And we’ve been very intentional about that. And, it’s no different than in the workplace, we are met at every intersection of who we are, hopefully, right. That’s the word we’re doing. But I 100% agree with what Suman’s saying about boards and nonprofits and what is even the makeup of your boards. And so we’re seeing a lot of trending that way, too. And that’s work that we, I know, are both doing that we’ve done either collectively or individually in our work to say, you know, what does that look like? And we’ve had to have some of those difficult conversations to bring that forward to people because we don’t just stop being who we are when we walk in the door at work. It’s all of us. It’s all of what we are. And sometimes, you know, I think there’s a myth out there that people come in to do this bad thing, none of us come to work to do a bad thing. None of us are trying to be our worst selves. But what people think sometimes, if leadership doesn’t get it, or if the organization doesn’t get it, sometimes they just don’t know what they don’t know. And I believe that’s our job to help, help them navigate that as Suman said, and co-create, it’s not about us as consultants coming and telling me what to do. After we leave, you have to have a plan. And so we do that together with them.

Kim Meninger Well, and, you know, one of the things that I’m thinking about, as you’re both talking too is that I’ve done, in the past, a workshop on allyship for different organizations and different kinds of groups. And what I have found interesting is that when I talk about the concept of race, or gender, or you know, a dimension of identity that has some kind of charge to it, people shut down. And they’re very hesitant to engage. What I have found to be an interesting sort of foot in the door for this conversation is talking about introvert/extrovert dynamics. And that allows for a discussion about people who have differences and the inclusion of people who think differently than you do. And then once that concept takes hold, we can then start to introduce race and gender and some of the other dimensions. But I’m thinking as we’re talking about, you know, really the board level and some of the dynamics within organizations, it’s not going to be as simple as just transporting what you both are doing into an organization because every organization has a different level of baseline psychological safety, right? So people are not going to dive into the deep end with you in this conversation. I don’t mean you two personally I mean, the company, right? If they don’t already feel like there’s a level of security that makes it okay for them to talk about this too. And so do you see differences in how a company might adopt the model that you have based on where they are in their own journey?

Tiffany Castango Suman looks like she’s thinking. I can start only because there’s like a relevant, fresh example, where it’s that readiness factor, right? Where we, we get information from our clients about where they think they are. And then we may do a survey or focus groups or any of those things. And then all of us are surprised by ooh, maybe we’re not where we thought we are. But that’s why you get the data, right? And so then you discover that maybe people aren’t ready. But that has to be there first. And so we recently had a conversation around that with a company where it’s like, you’re maybe not, you’re maybe not ready to have this conversation, but we can move them in that direction. But we have to not make assumptions. And that’s a huge piece of the puzzle. So I guess that’s what I would offer to that question.

Suman Kapur And sort of building off of that, right? It’s, this is an off-the-cuff analogy, and I’m hoping it’s going to work. So when you learn how to swim, right, so you learn how to swim in the shallow end, and you go slow, and you go steady until you build some level of comfort, then you move over to the deep side. And then at some point, you’re going to dive off the diving board, right as you get stronger and stronger. So that’s how I envision that and how I also plan out with my clients, is you start off slowly, no one is saying we’re gonna throw you into the deep end, and you have to have these conversations right now. It’s, you build the basis and the foundation to create that psychological safety, to build the trust with your employees to say, hey, we’re working on this look, we’re going to do a couple of these workshops, we’re going to have, you know, we’re starting to implement some changes in hiring policies. And you build and you build, and you build until it’s safe enough, people feel comfortable enough to have these courageous conversations around race. And that’s, Tiffany and I intentionally call them courageous conversations, right? Not necessarily. They’re difficult. But again, word choice is so important, right? Difficult already puts in that negative, oh, it’s going to be so hard, I can’t do it. Where courageous, it is brave, it is vulnerable. You are being vulnerable when you have these conversations, right? So you build on each thing before you get to, let’s now have a facilitated dialogue around race or any diversity, equity, inclusion concept.

Kim Meninger I love that. And I love the way you describe the deliberateness of choosing the word courageous because I also think that when we think about being courageous, we do that because there’s a reward on the other end of it too, right? So it’s not just, we’re, we’re doing something scary. We’re doing something brave and it’s beneficial to us in some way. Right. And so that’s one thing I wanted to pose to you both too is, given that there are still people who think there’s no room for this in the workplace, we have work to do, let’s not get distracted, like you said, Tiffany, you check your identity at the door, just come in and do your, do your job. Right? Why is it so important that we have this conversation? And what do we lose by not having it?

Tiffany Castango I mean it’s, it’s meeting people where they’re at to start. And if you expect to attract top talent, diverse talent, if you expect to be an organization who is building a strong brand that is representative of the communities you serve, if you expect to retain said talent that you spent a lot of time and effort on, that your team is now getting to know and then maybe they’re gone because you haven’t put in place the right things, you’re not letting people just be who they are. And the number one thing is diversity of thought. We forget that. I love the example you shared came about introvert-extrovert because we forget people learn in different ways start there, that’s a scary place to learn. Shouldn’t you all be pouring into your employees that way? And so I think that’s so healthy. On the other side of that is, you can really ruin people in these workplaces. And I know, I bet all three of us have those stories from our conversations, I think we do, of not you not only do not retain them, but you literally can ruin people’s lives by not allowing them to be who they are, and asking them how do I support you? What do you need, not just from a career perspective, but from a personal perspective? And I’d love to hear what Suman has to add too.

Suman Kapur Yeah, I loved everything that you said Tiffany, one of the things to me I always laugh about is that we’re seem to be in each other’s heads quite often so. But you know, when I talk to my mom about her career, there was a time in the 70s and 80s where companies were loyal to employees, right? Where they, they gave so much to their employees. My mom, they gave her a relocation package from New York to New Jersey. And they did so much with housing and driving lessons, like they poured into her and she stayed. They brought her through so many mergers because it’s a give-and-take. They gave, she gave back, they took, she took back, it was like this dance, right, and we no longer see the dance happening. It’s all about the bottom line. But I think what’s happening now is the shift. You know, with the great resignation and quiet quitting, you hear about all of these things that have been happening for a long time that are back out into the forefront of conversation. But people are tired of it, they want to, they want to belong. No one is saying I don’t want to work anymore. But I want to work in a place that’s not toxic, where I can be who I am, where if I share a thought or an idea, I’m not going to be penalized for it, I’m going to be rewarded for it. And reward is being promoted, to being invited more to the table, whatever that reward looks like. And I think that’s where we are now. It’s starting to bubble and people are pushing. And I am hoping that dance that my mom went through will come back at some point. It was a beautiful tango, she used to say.

Kim Meninger Oh, wow. And you know, it’s just, so I could spend all day complaining about the model and the focus on the bottom line, because it is so counterintuitive to me that you would sacrifice your human resources for the bottom line when they are your conduit to the bottom line, right. And so to just think about the fact that, if you embrace a person as a whole, you give them a psychologically safe, inclusive environment in which to do their best work, your bottom line increases accordingly. So it’s not just a nice to do for people, it’s actually really beneficial to business. And so I’m hoping that as we continue to evolve, that more and more organizations will start to see it as a win-win too. Any final thoughts that you each have to share before you share more about how we can find you?

Suman Kapur I would just say thank you for having us. You know, the more of these conversations, the more that people know that there are people out there doing this work, the benefits of the work, even though it’s challenging, not saying it’s easy, as consultants, this is really draining work. But when it clicks, it’s a really good feeling to know that you’ve made this positive impact on an individual or an, on an organization right to see the ripple effect that comes from it. So thank you for having, for having us here for initiating this conversation. There are people out there who want this work to happen, and we’re doing the good work to make it happen.

Kim Meninger Ah, so entirely my pleasure. I’m so inspired by both of you. Tiffany?

Tiffany Castango Oh my gosh, it’s so, it’s so weird that Suman just said ripple effects because that’s what it was like rippling through my mind is just that that is what it is, though. You, we often because it’s so draining, and it’s so tough. We feel like we might be in this alone, whether it’s as an entrepreneur or whatever it is because we get in our lanes, but we’re never alone. And together is better, as we always say. So I think having knowing that and starting with that, it’s okay to like retreat, sometimes you have to self-preservation, self-care. But knowing that your little ripple is out there in the pond and that there are other people out here who want this to succeed, who want to make the world a better place, it’s so helpful. And of course, I echo the thanks for having us on your amazing podcast that we love.

Kim Meninger Thank you. And I’m so glad you both mentioned that too because I think it is hard sometimes to keep progress in perspective when you’re playing the long game. Because, you know, every day we’re reminded of how much work there is left to do. And it can be really frustrating and really discouraging. But I love the points that you’re making about really staying focused and feeling like part of a collective, that we’re not alone, and that there is impact no matter what role you’re playing in the process. And you both have amazing businesses that you are leading and I’d love to share with the audience where we can find you and stay connected to you, learn more about what you have to offer. And then certainly, you know we’ll link to these in the show notes as well as to your conversation. So anybody who’s interested in being part of that can do so as well. Either one of you want to go first in sharing how to, how to follow up with you.

Suman Kapur Sure, so I’m on LinkedIn, that’s where I hang out. So it’s Suman Kapur. On LinkedIn, I do have a Facebook group for Well Balanced Solutions. And so that’s typically where I hang out. I do have a website. It’s in the midst of being redone, but it’s

Kim Meninger Thank you Suman. I feel like my website is always in a state of…

Suman Kapur Talk about exhausting work.

Kim Meninger Tiffany.

Tiffany Castango Um, yes, my website is currently it’s up, but it’s being redone too. So I’m excited to have that done at the end of the year, or beginning of next year. So that website is I also hang out on LinkedIn, and I’m on Twitter as well. So I’d love to hear from you.

Kim Meninger Wonderful. And like I said, we’ll put all those links into the show notes as well. And thank you both so much for this conversation. It’s been such a pleasure talking with you.

Suman Kapur Thanks, Kim.

Tiffany Castango Thank you so much.

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