From Fear to Curiosity: Rewriting the Unknown

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore what’s possible when we shift from fear to curiosity in the face of the unknown. Change is hard—not just because of what’s happening around us, but because of what’s happening inside of us. Our brains are wired to protect us, constantly scanning for threats and steering us toward what feels safe. But that protective wiring can also trigger self-doubt, fear, and impostor syndrome—especially when we’re doing something new. My guest this week is Lisa DeAngelis, author of Embracing the Unknown. Together, we talk about what it means to reframe fear as a natural part of growth—and how we can consciously choose curiosity over judgment. We explore the “stretch zone,” that powerful space between comfort and panic where learning and transformation occur. And we discuss how to create “proof loops” to help our brains (and bodies) build new confidence through lived experience. If you’ve ever questioned whether you’re capable of what comes next, this episode is a reminder that your brain may be trying to keep you safe—but everything changes when you choose curiosity instead.

About My Guest

Lisa DeAngelis is a holistic change practitioner, author, teacher, and speaker, and a skilled expert in the art of navigating sustainable change. Lisa brings a warm, thoughtful, and creative approach to her work guiding personal and leadership transformation, and is sought after for her ability to coalesce and communicate information, weaving together ideas in meaningful ways. Lisa's personal goals include a commitment to "walking her talk" and helping re-envision how leaders can navigate change with more authenticity and intentionality to embrace the process of growth while learning to align with guiding principles and core values that support meaningful and impactful choices. Her debut book, Embracing the Unknown: Exploring the Pathways to Change offers research, wisdom, and aspirational stories that empower others in their quest to gracefully navigate change in their own lives. An avid traveler, singer, and lover of the arts, Lisa lives and works in New York City.

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Embracing the Unknown: Exploring the Pathways to Change - Lisa’s Book

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Lisa. It is so great to have you here today, and I would love to start by inviting you to just tell us a little bit about yourself.

Lisa DeAngelis

Thanks, Kim. It is really great to be here. Gosh, where to start? I always love that question, because it's such an open invitation. I am someone who's in the quote, beginning middle of my life, and at some points I feel like I'm absolutely just starting over, and I can look back and say that I've done all sorts of things that I completely did not plan or intend to do. Life has taken me on a really circuitous journey in and around a lot of different professions, different ideas, different concepts, but what I find really interesting at this moment of my life is, it's a real threshold where I'm really starting to look at what are the patterns that have been in place in my life, and how do I want to actually apply that to who I want to be moving forward? And that's kind of a funny thing to say when you're hitting a point that you're sort of early midlife because people think, well, you should already be who you're going to be at this point, but I feel like I've just hit a point where I'm sort of restarting. My cycle is restarting, and I feel like an infant at some points, kind of re-looking at what I want this next phase of my life to look like. So I'm really in a moment where I'm embracing all sorts of different things. And most recently, I've authored and published a book on embracing the unknown and navigating change. So this is a topic that's really, really close to my heart, and really I find very interesting, and I think dovetails really well with this idea of why, why do we not do the things we want to do? What prevents us from being able to move forward with things in our lives? And I love this intersection because I'm in all of these questions actively as I'm figuring out, sort of the what's next. For me, that's a really nondescript introduction.

Kim Meninger

I love it but you got you sparked so many ideas. For me, I have to think about which, like bite of the apple I want to do first. But it's, it's interesting to hear you talk about the patterns to talk about the circuitous journey. I think it's rare. Maybe I haven't done the research, but I think it's pretty rare for people to take one linear path through life. There are so many twists and turns, and that's what makes it interesting. It's what allows us to get to know ourselves better and fine-tune the direction, but I think it also creates a lot of anxiety and self-doubt. I think what came up for me as you were talking was you framed that in such a positive, open way, whereas other people tend to think of it, of it sometimes as I'm so scattered I don't know who I am, or I am, you know, I should be in a certain place by now, and I'm and so the negative frame around it really keeps people stuck and not appreciating the diversity of experience or the possibilities that it opens. And I wonder, have you always had this attitude towards it, or was there a turning point for you?

Lisa DeAngelis

Well, I guess I would consider myself an optimistic realist. You know, I am inherently live on the positive side, but I do have a healthy dose of realism that exists there. What was something you said I find really interesting because you're right. Rarely anyone's path goes linearly, but we all have this concept that's exactly how things are going to unfold. So I think what's fascinating is there's a mismatch there between, if you want to call it, what we're taught, what culturally, we kind of are presented with as this very straightforward path. But the reality is, the majority of people do not have a life path that unfolds that way, but we don't normalize it. So when we just start to call things out, when we just start to name them, talk about them, then something starts to shift. Because I can't tell you how many times I've sat down with someone to have a conversation and they're almost embarrassed to say, Well, I was only in this job for five years, and then I needed to look for a different job, and it brought me in this direction. Now, I only have three years in this career, and I but actually, when we realize that we're not the only ones that have done this, that have walked these sort of jagged paths, then it gives us a little bit more mutual understanding, and almost what I would describe as secondhand safety, to say, oh, somebody else can do that. Well, then maybe I can do that too. And that's, I think, how we learn and grow is because when we get siloed in our own mental world of, oh my gosh, what am I doing? Is this the quote, right decision? Should I be doing this right? That's a really challenging place to be, but when we remind ourselves that it's in a bigger context, then something new can arise. So yes, one can say that that's an inheritive, inherent positive outlook, but I also think that's just reframing at a really large scale. Because if you blow anything out far enough, a curvy line starts to look really straight. And so I think it's important to remember that with perspective. It's easy to say I went from point A to point B, but that's rarely how it looks when we're in the midst of our journey.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, oh gosh, you said so many great things there. I think normalizing the jagged career path is a really important thing, and I think conversations like this are helpful because there is a lot of I don't know if Shame, shame maybe, but I think it is something that we don't talk enough about in the moment, because we're still trying to figure it out, and we feel like maybe we should know more than we do, and then once we get to another point, kind of moved on. And so there aren't as many opportunities for us to create that second-hand safety for others that you're talking about, which I think is so important, it's like, what's your frame of reference? If, if your expectation and this like the story you're telling yourself, and the examples that you're using are people who have walked a more traditionally linear line, then you are going to feel like you're breaking the rules.

Lisa DeAngelis

Yes, yes. And that can feel, I think, I think shame. You're right. I think that's a hard word to because it's not necessarily that people feel maybe shame around it, but one of my personal paradigms, and that I've applied to the work that I do and when I'm working with other people, is ditching judgment for curiosity. So this idea of, of getting curious is really important, and I think it starts with a reality set to sort of say, am I talking about something that's a quote, absolute truth. And spoiler alert, rarely is anything an absolute truth. And when we get caught in this moment of it is absolutely this or that right or wrong, that binary all of a sudden leads to the judgment zone where we're in literally a good, bad, yes, no, and we have to put ourselves somewhere to manage it. But if we reality set by saying I've got something in front of me, it's giving me information. What if I get curious? What if I just ask myself a few questions about this, then it starts to move somewhere because it's really hard to be in judgment toward yourself or others. If you're curious, I think it's a really important space, when we're talking about this concept of imposter syndrome, to say, let's start with a reality set. Is this actually an absolute truth that I'm dealing with that I cannot do this? And if the answer is, Well, I haven't done it yet. That's a curious question. Okay, does that mean I cannot do it, or does it just mean I haven't done it yet? And all of a sudden, you see how it's sort of like that, that whole paradigm of a really fixed, judgment-oriented way of looking at something, it's almost like it starts to crumble. It loses some of its validity as you sit there and start to ask questions, it can't hold up against these questions that inherently ask us to just go a little deeper, think a little bit more carefully, and again, notice what we notice, because the important part is that we're shifting. The second we start to get really fixed is when we get judgment, judgment focus, and then we eventually can get stuck.

Kim Meninger

That's a such a good point. I think the judgment inherently keeps us in a stuck place. And one of the challenges that I see a lot is we haven't practiced this idea of slowing down long enough to ask ourselves some of those questions that you're talking about. It really has to be a new habit that we intentionally create, because it's not how our brains typically operate, right? Our brains be a little bit more dramatic.

Lisa DeAngelis

I love that you said that absolutely, it's like we compare notes beforehand. And I'm telling you, honestly, we didn't, but that's it. One of the things I wrote down to bring up is this idea of, is this pattern of moving straight to judgment? Is it a habit? Is it a habit, or is it the actual reality we're dealing with? Because when it's the habit, we're drawn there. And yes, you bring up something really, really important to remind ourselves. And again, I think normalizing is a good word to describe it is there are two things happening, literally in our brains that make this process very difficult. One is negativity bias. We are wired to look for the threats. This is a basic survival instinct, is to look for the negative things and sort of push aside the positive things. And there are tons of studies out there that say it takes, I don't know, seven times the positive to the negative iterations for that to stick in our system. So we actually have to actively work to counteract this natural negativity bias that exists. The other interesting thing that's happening on the back end of this is we're also wired to look for what we've already experienced, give us proof. And if we haven't done something yet, we don't have any past experience. So our brain goes to something associated or affiliated, kind of like that experience. And it goes, ooh, I don't know you changed to that one job, and it was not good in the past. But that doesn't mean that every new job is going to be that experience. For example, we're just really used to wiring our brains are predictive, right? They're not they're not imaginative. They're not sitting around in terms of the way they process. Our brains are very imaginative. I want to clarify that. But in terms of the way they process information and decision-making, they are predictive. So they're looking at what's happened in the past. They're looking at what's going on in your body system. If you get really upset or anxious or nervous when you think about something the body, the brain is going to take that into account, because it's saying, oh, okay, we need to connect the fact that you're anxious, you're nervous, you're concerned about this with this type of experience. But we can change that. We can rewire it by saying, Actually, let's establish some proof that it is possible that we can do this. We have done it before, and then we create new predictive patterns as we move forward, but that takes active work. I call that the process of establishing proof loops. When we're working through this process where something happens, we really forget to say, oh my gosh, I did that. Let's actually plant that as a seed so that the next time we come up against a situation like this, our brain doesn't go straight to the negative experiences, it actually goes, Oh, remember that time? It was really good. That might happen again. And wouldn't it be amazing if we had more experiences like that, where we meet a new person, and rather than saying, are they going to like me? Maybe I'm not good enough, maybe I don't have what it takes, we actually would say, I might meet an amazing friend out of this experience that's really cool.

Kim Meninger

Are there? Are there practices? I'm thinking of actionable ways of translating what you just said because I could not agree with you more. I think of the brain in one way, as a database that's just collecting information, right? But it's collecting it with a negative slant, as you said. So it's always looking at, wait, have I? Have I been in this situation before? And I want to prevent anything bad from ever happening again. And it's just kind of doing its calculations. And so because we don't process, or we're not as quick to store the good stuff, right? We those proof loops are harder to come by. So are there practices that you would recommend that allow people to really take notice and store it actively?

Lisa DeAngelis

Yeah, that's a great question. So I personally have been on a somatic trauma healing journey over the last three and a half years, working with some of my mentors, Dr Valerie Rain, whose work has been really important in helping women discover how we have been sort of systematically oppressed by, by the port world around us, and what we can do to actually heal at the at the deepest levels, somatically, and that's the body level. So I bring that up to say one of the things is to physically get your body involved in the process of this positive proof. Because if anyone sits around and thinks, Okay, what was the last good thing that happened to you? And this could be you laughed really hard with your kids. This could be you ate a fantastic meal. This could be you got promotion. This could be anything I want you to think for a second, what was the reaction in your body? And most people will have a very say, Oh, well, I was just sitting there and I kind of went, that tastes good, or I chuckled a little bit on the inside. You know, I went when I got the big promotion. But there is a level of saying, What if we actually took time to let our body celebrate that moment, like, what if we actually jumped around, danced around, got a little bit more loud with how our body was celebrating it, because that, that allows our body to take notice, and our body said, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's happening right now? This is a cool, good we're celebrating, and the body remembers differently when we invite it into the party, if we are constantly pushing our body out and keeping it as a mental exercise, it's very difficult to change the patterning, and we live in a little bit of a numbed out society, right? We're on our phones. A lot of our cultural celebrations use alcohol or use sugar, or use things that, that raise and crash our systems, and so it becomes difficult, I think, when we get too disconnected. So one, one answer to that is actually start seeing if you can challenge yourself to feel it and celebrate it on a body level. And it will feel strange at first, and that's. Couple people I'm sure are listening going, Yeah, okay, I'm not. I'm just going to challenge you to sort of say, What happens if you try, and what is the worst that happens if you try, you look a little silly? What in front of your kids, in front of your mirror, in front of your in your home? And then you can decide it's not a good exercise for you, but give it a chance, because something really changes on the permission side of our body when we open up to letting it really be a part of that process, rather than everything being a mental exercise. [Now.] Oh, go ahead.

Kim Meninger

Oh, sorry. I just wanted to respond to that because I think that's so important when you say mental exercise, that really stood out to me. Because I think there are a lot of us who have an identity that's rooted in being a good student, right? So a lot of how we were conditioned to show up in the world is rooted in that, like academic structure, if we study and we write and we read, And so everyone's looking for the book that's going to teach them how to change their lives. And everyone's, you know, sort of looking for the, the exercises that they can do, and those are mental exercises, and not to dismiss the value of them, but it's if you're treating it like an academic exercise, you're not internalizing it in the way that you're describing. And I think there's something to be said. I was imagining myself doing what you were saying in front of my kids, and I was like, Hey, how great would it be if I taught them to do that too?

Lisa DeAngelis

And kids naturally do it a lot more than adults do. If you want a child and they have a bite of an ice cream that tastes amazing, they're dancing around and going, they're actually expressing their full body enjoyment. And I think that's actually something we can a learn from. But yes, what a valuable lesson to teach our children. I have a, I have a great response to also what you said about this idea of reading the book that's going to solve the problem. Because this is, this was what I set out to do. I was thinking to myself, I am going to write the quintessential book on change, and I am going to, I'm going to do it, and I did not run. Want to write the How to Change in Five Easy Steps, because that, that's not really how life works. But I encountered my own really intense moment of imposter syndrome when I was writing my book because I had this disconnect between wanting to write the quintessential book on how to change and what the reality of my voice in this space really is and I had to remedy that. I had to sit with it, and it was really difficult, and it thrust me into a million and a half moments of saying, I don't think I can do this. What good is this gonna do anyway? Who wants to hear what I have to say? But the reality of this situation is, is there was that disconnect there? Because if I'm trying to be something I'm inherently not, it's going to it's going to leak out. It's going to leak through, right, all of those little, tiny pinholes. And anyone who knows me knows that I don't look at things and say, This is how to do it in five easy steps. I ask questions, I step back and I say, Wow, have we thought about this? Is that really what's going on here? This is, this is how I approach everything in my life. So of course, if we're going to be talking about something as huge as what it means to become the next versions of you and evolve in a way that allows your life to unfold with sustainable change as a tenant of the way you show up in the world. It can't happen in checkboxes. It just can't that's not the way it works. So I think that's a really interesting moment for me, is to say that was a moment where I had to remedy, I had to really get clear with myself on who I was. I had to get honest. And it was not about the truth. It was about honesty. There was no truth there. It was just being very real with myself. So I think for me, the other side of this, if we're looking at the body, you know exercise as one piece, the mental exercise piece is to see if you can always find a question, and that's, that's, you know, the simplest way I'm going to say it. I don't think there's one question, although I think the question Why not is always a really good one to start with. There's a big question of, Why would I do this, or why would this work? Or why is often a big question that comes up? But I think switching that around to asking yourself, why not? Why not me? Why not this? Why not now? And if you have a really good reason, I'm certainly not asking you to, you know, to, to go away from what your true knowing of, of the answer needs to be, but it's really important to not always get into a habit pattern where we're only looking at one side.

Kim Meninger

Yes, I'm so glad you said that because you had mentioned earlier, why do we not do some of the things that we want to do? Right? And I think a big part of it is what you're talking about is that our brains are so focused on protecting us. Process that will immediately come up with all the reasons why this is too risky and not the right time, and I'm not capable of doing it to the point where we make the decision to just play small or play it safe and we don't account for what we lose by staying in the same place. And so I think that's really important, and I'd love to hear your perspective on, how do we zoom out and recognize that not making change isn't neutral, right? Like the decision to stay where we are has costs as well.

Lisa DeAngelis

I think that's such an important question, and you know, I'm going to answer it a little bit like multi, multi-fold because I think there are a couple of really important tools for this. I talk about the tool of the perspective shift in, in my book, you know, when we're literally thinking about it like the lens of a camera, where we can zoom in, zoom out, change our focus there. But that takes something you said a little bit earlier. It takes, the willingness to take time to pause, we have to create some space because if we don't have space, we can't notice anything. And so many of us are used to just barreling through one thing after the other without any downtime or without any space. It just doesn't give any room for anything else to fall into place. So all I think that is an important piece for that is to remind ourselves is that see what happens when you just take pauses more often, and when you take the pause, there is an opportunity there and then, have a whole list of tools that you can look at and choose from. And one of them is, where is my zoom, and do I want to shift it? And it can be as simple as that, because if you stop and you ask yourself that question, and you say, wow, I've been so focused on this job and what I'm doing here, I forgot to think about my career, or I've been so busy thinking about my career, I forgot to ask myself if I'm actually going to be happy in this job. Because sometimes something that doesn't look like the, the right next move actually is meant to give us an important skill or resource that we're going to need to build into the bigger picture. But again, if we never pause long enough to notice we're missing something in, in that, in that kind of navigation of what's happening in our lives. The other thing that I think is really important is the concept of what I call stretch, and that's because most of us live pretty solidly in our comfort zone, and doing things that are familiar to us, doing things because it's a habit, is where we generally live, but that's not a space where we grow, and that's not the space where we change. But the trick is, if we move too far, too fast, we get thrown into a panic zone. So we go from comfort to panic. And everyone knows, I'm sure, if you're listening, you have had this experience where you realize you have crossed the threshold, and all of a sudden you go, ah, too much. I'm in, I'm in a panic state. But the reality is, we can't actually do anything until we get ourselves back to a more regulated space, right? But between the comfort zone and the panic zone, there is a stretch zone, and it's really important for us to feel out what the boundaries of our comfort, stretch and panic zones are because stretch is where we learn. Stretch is where we grow, and that's where the change happens. So for some people, that stretch zone is super narrow to begin with, and that's okay. It's totally okay because just like the word implies, it stretches as we practice being there, we dip our toe in, and then we dip our toe out, and then we go, and then we realize we get a little panicked, and we get back out, and then we go a little bit again. And over time, what happens is it actually does grow. The stretch zone grows, and when there's more time and space, until we hit that moment where we feel panicked, and so we have more of an opportunity then to do something there. So I think in terms of applying these tools, how do we stop How do we change our focus? How do we change our perspective? It takes this moment of pausing. It takes this moment of resetting and reorienting in our situation, and then actually reminding ourselves to get curious. Am I in my comfort zone? Am I in a stretch zone? Can I move out of this panicked space and back into a more regulated space so I can explore the stretch zone again, right? Yes. And again, it's this, like reality set, get curious, and then we look for proof, right? Eventually, wire in success. And for me, that's like, the fourth step to changing is like, really look at like, what is the reality of what I'm dealing with here? And again, often it is not as fixed as we think. Get curious, which means pausing, asking ourselves questions, you know, exploring around for a little bit, and then looking for the proof and wiring in the success. Us, because that's really what's going to help us change the way we approach things in the future, and eventually, the goal is to have that be the new habit. So every time we come up against something new, we're not thrown into a scared, anxious place of going, oh gosh, I have no idea what to do. We go, Hmm, interesting. I've got this. Let's reality set here. I'm curious. This is happening here. This is happening here? Oh, I've actually done something like this before. And then you can see how your whole process of approach changes. And that's the goal eventually is that we're completely rewiring the way we look at moving through things in the world because anything we haven't done yet is an unknown. That's right, that's right. It's like, you know, I can't remember who said it off the top of my head, but you know, everybody is just a strangers or just people you haven't met yet, right? Exactly. It's that moment of, if we look at the unknown as this big, open, wide, vast thing out there that we're never going to be able to mentally grapple with, yeah, it's gonna be really overwhelming. But if we look at every single thing we've done before as an unknown that we figured out how to cross a chasm and reach, then it becomes something like an exploration. And dare I even say a little fun, sure, right?

Kim Meninger

Yeah, no you’re, you're so right because I think it's so important, and I say this all the time, to recognize that none, none of what exists in our comfort zone today were we born with right that we take for granted, that we don't even give ourselves credit for we're once new and probably scary and hard, and we learn them. And so I think, to your point of really being able to say, maybe I've never been in this exact situation before, but I've been here generally before. This is not totally new terrain for me as an adult who's navigating the world right and looking for the parallels.

Lisa DeAngelis

Yeah, totally. And there are going to be some moments where we say, Wow, I realized that I this is a different person than I used to be, and sometimes that can be a little unnerving when we realize that we've changed so much that a piece of our personality has shifted, a piece of our identity has changed. But life does that to us if we don't walk through it as well. You know, every time there was a big life event that happens, we change, we shift, and we adjust, and we generally don't label those things as negative as much as we do when we're doing the decision ourselves. So that's a really interesting paradigm for me, is to say when I'm working with people is, why is it any different when we want to do it? We just have this desire, you know? And then that, again, gives us this ability to lean into our own sense of, yeah, I really do want this, even if it's scary, even if it brings out a different piece of me. And just because I haven't done it yet doesn't mean I can't do it. And for me, that has been one of the biggest supports in working through this, this question of, like, what imposter syndrome really is and how it shows up. And I think there is this, this ongoing, you know, question of, What if imposter syndrome was like, like, a notice, right? What if it had no judgment, but what if it was like, bleep, bleep, bleep, haven't done this before? This is new information, and we can decide if that's exciting or scary to just automatically have to be new bad. It doesn't have to automatically blare to the negative, like I said before, with this whole concept of we are skewed in that natural direction. So what if? What if this, this message, this, I don't know, this is different. This is something new. What if that didn't have to be a warning, and it could instead be this, this kind of fodder for excitement and exploration?

Kim Meninger

I think that's a really good point. I often reframe imposter syndrome, really, as just that natural fear that kicks in when we're being faced with something new and that we don't have a lot of experience in. And so if we, if we're able to accept it not as fact but as fear, right, then we can manage it differently because we know how to do. We know how to, how we've interacted with scary situations in the past, and we can go back to that archive of experiences that we've had in other areas, right? It's not, we don't take it at face value and let it keep us stuck.

Lisa DeAngelis

Absolutely. And that's again, where we cycle back to this eliminating judgment and leaning into curiosity. Because you see right there, if we just put something in front of us and say, Oh, this is a, this is a, yes, no, this is a, this is a, haven't done it before, so you must be that's all judgment space. So if we can sort of learn to lean into these curious spaces, and like I always tell people, if you're not sure what it looks like to lean into curiosity, it's almost always questions and not answers. So if you find yourself talking in declarative statements, you're probably leaning toward the judgment side. I. Unless it's positive affirmations or something like that. But, but generally speaking, curiosity speaks in questions more than it speaks in answers.

Kim Meninger

That's a really great point. And I have personally found, as somebody who has had a lifelong relationship with anxiety, that when I'm in anxiety mode, I'm swirling, I'm not able to problem solve and just, you know, kind of replaying things over and over again. When I move to questions, I feel like I'm problem-solving, right? I actually feel like, Oh, I'm in charge here, right? I have more options available. It's, it's definitely a different experience that kind of brings you to a more productive place and disrupts a lot of that energy.

Lisa DeAngelis

Absolutely. And I do think it's an important moment here to maybe just we are not talking about bypassing any of these feelings that arise, right? This is not like anxiety doesn't get to be here. You shouldn't be scared. No, shoulds No, should. That's back in the judgment zone, right? No, right? But it is really a moment to ask ourselves, right say, like, what is this anxiety trying to tell me right now? What am I actually scared of? And I sit with this for a little more, and the answer might be no, in that moment, you might be too overwhelmed with anxiety or fear and, and that is okay, too, just coming back to it again and not saying, well, I could never do that, because I could do that the one time. Just say, like, that was not a good moment. But how about now? How about five minutes and ask again? And that's that really just gentle inquiry process that helps us again. Live in this in this space. I was just, I live in New York City, and I was at the Museum of Natural History recently with, with a friend, and we were walking around, and on the second floor, I just walked into this little corner, and it was called the zone of curiosity. And I just had a moment, and I just thought, I want a zone of curiosity in my house, in my head, in my heart, you know, in all of these spaces. But I just thought that was so lovely to just ask ourselves, you know, where is our zone of curiosity, and can we just get a little bit more adept at allowing that to be really present in our time?

Kim Meninger

What a fantastic way to wrap up this great conversation. I think that should be the takeaway because they really everything that you're saying. I love your message, Lisa, I think it's so important, especially now, because a lot of us are navigating changes that we are intentionally pursuing, and a lot of us are navigating changes that are being thrust upon us and multiple changes at the same time of different varieties. And so I think this is such an important conversation right now and always. And so for people who want more of you and your work, where can they find you?

Lisa DeAngelis

Thank you. Well, my website is just my name, www, dot Lisa Deangelis dot com, you can find information about me, my work, my book, all that great stuff on there. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, which I'm guessing Kim, you can just drop in the show notes, absolutely and I'm always happy to connect. I did make the interesting and actually wasn't that difficult choice to leave social media for a little while, so I'm taking a little hiatus to reevaluate that relationship. It was not doing great things for me a few months ago, so we'll see where we go in the future. But LinkedIn still pretty active for me right now. And Kim, I'd love to just give your listeners a promo code for a 99-cent ebook off my website if anybody is interested in grabbing a copy. So why don't we just do, do that for people who use the promo code confidence, and we can, we can go from there.

Kim Meninger

Wonderful. Well, all those links will be in the show notes for anybody who's interested. And thanks again, Lisa, I appreciate you. I appreciate your work. It's been wonderful to have you here today.

Lisa DeAngelis

Likewise. Thanks so much, Kim. Take care.