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  • Kim Meninger

What Does It Mean to Be an Expert?

Updated: May 12, 2023

What Does It Mean to Be an Expert? - Kit Pang


In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore what it means to be an expert in your field. For many of us, being an expert means knowing it all, or having endless training and experience. This perception leaves us feeling like we don’t know enough or can’t adequately keep up with those around us. My guest, Kit Pang, public speaking coach and founder of BostonSpeaks, shares his perspective on being an expert, which can help us re-frame our thinking. He also shares how he has managed to avoid disruptive impostor syndrome feelings.

About Kit Pang:

Whether you want help with virtual presentations, board reporting, sales pitches, or anything in between… Kit Pang is here to help you earn your mic-drop moment.

As the founder of BostonSpeaks and a Harvard Business School public speaking coach, Kit helps individuals become exceptional speakers who deliver compelling presentations and speeches. His clients come from diverse industries, including:

✔ Fortune 500 CEOs and TEDx Speakers, ✔ NFL Players and Three-Star Michelin Chefs, ✔ Rising leaders and executives from companies like Dell, Delta, RE/MAX, and more.

His coaching and teaching style is fun, engaging, and insightful. Professionally, Kit is always looking to develop as a speaker and leader. In his personal life, it looks more like 25% Crossfit, 25% happy wife happy life, and 50% trying to help his three cats get along.

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Transcript:

Kim Meninger Alright, welcome Kit. I’m really excited, you and I started this conversation in a different forum. And I’m excited to bring the second half of this conversation here today. Before we do, I’d love to invite you to introduce yourself.

Kit Pang Yes, and Kim, I’m super excited for this as a quick, quick, quick intro, again, my name is Kit Pang. I’m the founder of Boston Speaks. The main thing that I do is I help people with their public speaking anxiety. But other than that, I’m a human, I’m a human being just like the rest of us. But let’s, let’s jump into this.

Kim Meninger And just to give everyone a little bit of background, so Kit, you kind of interviewed me for the summit that you put together on speaking and we were having a conversation about impostor syndrome and really self-doubt as it relates to speaking. And the reason why I was excited to bring you on to this podcast is because you had talked a little bit about how impostor syndrome doesn’t show up for you very often, that it’s not entirely unfamiliar to you, but that it’s not something that you feel has been disruptive to your life. And so I really wanted to continue that conversation to see how you were able to escape the misery that so many of us experienced. But more importantly, to see what we can learn from you because I have a feeling that you bring perspectives that will be helpful for others to hear. So can you tell me a little bit about what comes to mind for you when you think about impostor syndrome and your own experience?

Kit Pang Yeah. So when it comes to oh, well, actually, let me first say this. It’s not that I have not experienced impostor syndrome, but I’ll relate it to you know, sometimes if I leave the house, or is the house locked, I will think about it for a second. And then it wouldn’t bug me anymore. That’s how I would see impostor syndrome. You know, I might have a thought once in a while, but it doesn’t bug me. I keep on moving for, you know, towards the rest of my day. But how it shows up or in the past, as a public speaking coach. One is most of the clients that I work with, or people in organizations, okay, so, therefore, they work in an organization, or maybe they’re business owners. I’ve never had a job in an organization. But that’s the people that I usually help. And so that’s, you know, that that came up sometimes because I used to be a hip hop dancer. So all my life, I just had I had a dancing job working in the studio. So how can someone that worked at a studio understand the organization side of it? And also, I never had public speaking anxiety like my clients do. So how do I help someone when I haven’t experienced their level of public speaking anxiety? And then kind of like the last one is, can I really help people with public speaking anxiety? So those are the three that I would say, they show up, but they don’t bug me, you know, it doesn’t take over my life.

Kim Meninger Whereas I, if I don’t think I locked the door, I will turn around halfway through, through my drive to come all the way back. So I like that analogy. But I want to first of all, tell me more about how you went from being a hip-hop dancer to wanting to help people in organizations speak more confidently. What was the mission for you?

Kit Pang Yeah. Growing up, I was not the most confident or public speaking wasn’t, you know the thing for me. But when I entered a public speaking competition in college, I did it for the money, it was the last year. And that time when I went on stage, I felt like, I felt in the zone, I had that feeling of letting go in the public. So therefore, I was able to be in the zone. And because of that experience, that drove me to say, I want to speak more, and at the same time, I want to help people achieve that feeling.

Kim Meninger And as we all know, public speaking is one of the scariest things that people can imagine doing. It’s something that many people are terrified of. So what do you generally see when you’re working with people? What are they afraid of? What, what, what did they tell you is their anxiety around it?

Kit Pang Well, most people actually don’t know what they’re scared of, they just speak, they just mostly scared of being scared. You know how sometimes you’ll get nervous and then we get more nervous about being nervous. Most people are at that level, they don’t even know what’s scaring them in the first place. Okay. And therefore, most people are telling people, oh, you speak too fast, or you say too many uhms and they’re actually just working on the symptoms, but they’re not working on really what’s causing their fear in the first place. So most people really when it comes down to public speaking fear, is we tend to feel like people are going to judge us negatively. And because of the consequences that might occur, because of how people might judge us.

Kim Meninger And if someone feels that way, what’s the, what’s the number one thing you go to in your mind? Or what’s the thing that you think when you hear that, you think this is what they need?

Kit Pang I would say, as what they need, what I’ve learned is, we can never tell people what they need. They have to be open to accepting what they need. So they need to figure out the answers for themselves. Even though, even though like I might have the secret to every single client, which is usually the same thing, and if I tell them, first, they might not believe in it, they might not. They haven’t had their own experience or had their own thoughts to figure it out. So I would say, how can they gain awareness of what’s causing their speaking anxiety in the first place? Same thing, I would say maybe impostor syndrome, do you know what’s causing it? Right? Most people are gonna, they haven’t even searched out what’s causing it. They’re just afraid of being afraid. Is it? Oh, this impostor syndrome? We have it again. So, therefore, we don’t want to have it.

Kim Meninger Yeah, exactly. That’s something I say a lot too, just like you said, when it comes to impostor syndrome is you don’t really manage impostor syndrome, per se, you manage the triggers of impostor syndrome, right? So if you have this generalized fear that you’re a fraud, or that you’re going to be found out, there’s not a whole lot you can work with there, you need to really name what’s at the root of that so that you can either reframe it in a more productive way, or you can manage it. So for a lot of people, it’s I’m afraid that I’m not as prepared as I should be, or I’m afraid I don’t know as much as I need to, things like that. So once you can name it, then you can start to really dissect it more analytically and think about is there an action plan here? Do I need to just reframe my thoughts around it? But it doesn’t, it doesn’t help to stay in this space of impostor syndrome or fear, because you can’t really wrap your arms around it.

Kit Pang Yeah, well, what’s, what’s your go-to? When people tell you I have impostor syndrome?

Kim Meninger Yeah, it’s exactly that it’s okay. Let’s break it down. Right? Like, what’s your version of impostor syndrome? Because everyone’s is a little bit different. When you have impostor syndrome, how does it show up for you? And what is likely going on in that moment? Because it’s not something and similar to you, right? People, generally speaking, aren’t public speaking on a regular basis, unless that’s their job. And so it’s, it’s not like we’re constantly in that state of fear. It’s something that’s episodic, shows up when the moment shows up. And so how do we, how do we plan for it? How do we, I sort of think of it as a before, during and after. How do you know what’s likely to come up? What do you do when you’re in the moment? And then what can you do afterwards? If things didn’t go the way you want them to.

Kit Pang Yeah, and I think the big thing is, it’s we are capable of changing. Like we have, we have the capability in our minds to change. And I relate this because I know this is only on audio. But in the background, I have cats here. And I, what I really find interesting is that if you have pets, so maybe you don’t have kids, if you have pets, like we have three cats, and every single cat is completely different. One eats like a slob. One, it’s very clean. But when my wife and I say, can you, can the cats change their behavior? Right? Can they change their behavior? I think it’s well, at first I don’t, I haven’t dug into that side. But as human beings, we’re able to change if we notice we’re eating like a slob. If we really want it to, we can change it.

Kim Meninger Yes, you’re absolutely right. And I think that’s an important point too, when it comes to the idea of public speaking, because when we are afraid of something, we make our world smaller, right? Because we will go out of our way to avoid the thing that we’re afraid of unless we are motivated to address it. And so, you know, not every job requires public speaking. But certainly, the higher up you go or the more externally facing you are, the more opportunities you’re going to be presented with. And if that’s truly terrifying to you, you likely won’t take advantage of opportunities that are presented to you. So if you are making your world smaller and smaller, you’re perpetuating that fear too, because you’re, not you’re not actually addressing it. So do you have tips for people who are, are, you know, really afraid of doing it but maybe aren’t ready for a big stage? Or, you know, something that’s really intimidating? Are there ways to get your feet wet without?

Kit Pang Let me say this first. 90% of the people that I work with are not like the big events that you’re talking about. They probably have the same category of your clients, in meetings, in meetings, and high stakes meetings once in a while, maybe they have a talk or conference. But I will say two things. One is, I know many of my clients, they want to deal with the now. So we have to satisfy that. Like, if we have the anxiety now, if our mind blanks out, what can we do now? Okay, forget the root cause and all that we don’t have time for that. I just want to know now, okay, so we have to satisfy that. And then when we are thinking clearly, then we can investigate and clean the house and clean the mind later on. So I would say those two things, knowing what to do now, and knowing what to do when you think clearer. So you know, just a quick tip, when we have it. Now, if you’re listening to this, and you have that speaking anxiety, well, I have the nerves, what can I do? Now, you need to think about it like, like preparing for an earthquake or fire. I was taught when there was an earthquake, somehow go between the doors, okay? Most people, the thing is, they just don’t know what to do. When something bad happens, let’s say the mind goes blank, they actually just don’t know what to do. That’s it. Like, if an earthquake happens, I will go, maybe figure out one. Same thing. Most people just don’t know what to do. When the mind goes blank, you just have to figure out one thing to do. And try that a few times and practice that when you’re not in panic mode. Same thing, you don’t know, you don’t practice preparing for, you know, running out the house or, you know, when there’s an earthquake, you, you prepare, when you’re more calm, same exact thing. So figure out one thing to do before your mind goes blank.

Kim Meninger Yeah, that’s a great tip. I think about that a lot, too, is because I’m somebody who’s struggled with anxiety for much of my life, I know that experience really well. And so what I often tell people is prepare for what you’re most afraid of, right? What is it that you’re afraid is going to happen? And then if you have a plan for that, then everything else sort of falls into place, right? So for a lot of the people that I work with, it’s, I’m afraid I’m gonna be asked the question I don’t know the answer to. Okay, so then that’s gonna happen someday, it’s gonna happen someday in your life, that you’re going to be asked a question you don’t know the answer to you cannot possibly predict every question you’ll ever be asked. So if you have a plan for what your response will be, when that happens, then things don’t feel as terrifying or as intimidating once you actually get into that space.

Kit Pang Yes, yes. But that’s still working on the symptoms. Because, you know, eventually, that’s still solving the symptom side of it, not going to the cause, but, but yes, we’ve been talking a lot about the anxiety, I know, you might want to move into like the impostor syndrome.

Kim Meninger They’re related as far as I’m concerned, like, it’s, as far as I’m concerned. And I’m, you know, people may argue with me, impostor syndrome is just an expression of anxiety. You know, it’s really, it’s, I’m afraid of that people are gonna think I’m a fraud. It’s, it’s anxiety. But I will, I will shift gears a little bit to talk about the mindset piece because I think that is important. You said some things when we were originally talking that I thought were interesting. And I think it’s it related to how you think about how much you actually need to know in order to support your clients, right? Because I think we have this expectation that I need to be a quote-unquote expert in order to speak about something or so. Can you say more about your perspective on that? Yeah, whenever,

Kit Pang when it comes to being an expert. I often ask people, what’s the point of being an expert in the first place? And what would you say actually can, what’s the why? What’s the point of being an expert in the first place?

Kim Meninger Well, from my perspective, it’s about being able to contribute to your field, right? The more you understand it, the more of an impact you can make. But the term expert is so subjective.

Kit Pang Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s why we get too wound up in the detail. I’m not an expert. But again, people want to be an expert, from this perspective, is to help people get results faster. So, therefore, the question I think we need to ask ourselves, or even without the credentials or have the levels of, you know, amount of years, are we still able to get people results? Or help people at the end of the day because being an expert is therefore we know, maybe we know more, or maybe we have more years of experience to help our team, our clients, our people grow faster. So if you think you can help people get results. And if you can say, yes, I do, then why does being an expert matter to you, if you can still help people get results? And even better, maybe?

Kim Meninger Yeah, and I guess I’m curious. And this is purely semantics. But if you can help people get results, doesn’t that make you an expert? I think we define expert in interesting ways because for many of us, it’s attached to credentials, attached to how many years of schooling or how many years of experience we’ve had, as opposed to really thinking about the results. So either we need to redefine what it means to be an expert, or we just need to throw out that term entirely as it relates to how we think about our value.

Kit Pang Yeah, because I think in our society, you know, like, there’s, it’s like, people think, Oh, you gotta have, have these names. But just to show an example, I’m bringing back the cat, our cats when we first adopted, so we have two sisters and another cat. The introduction went really bad. And they can’t be in the same room together. Like we should be on one of those shows. That was cat shows where I was, you know, they can’t be in the same room now today. And so I went to the library, and I researched online, I got all the books on how to get cats to behave in one room. 10 books in a library, watch all the documentaries, I couldn’t figure it out, like I didn’t know. So one day, I got the book in front of me and Lily’s meowing now, this book, and it was called the Cat Whisperer. Okay. I said I need, I need some help, I might need to go, go, I need to go call the Cat Whisperer, it took me a year to finally call this person. She is from Texas. I wanted the best of the best. She’s from Texas. But here’s the thing. She’s not certified. Okay, she doesn’t have the, you know, she didn’t go to school for it. But I still thought she was the best. Why is that? Because she was able to help cat issues like she was able to demonstrate on video testimonials and all of that. I don’t, I didn’t even care if she went to school or not. I just cared if she can help me with my problem. Okay, at the end of the day, but when it comes back to us, we might be thinking, oh, I don’t have these credentials, therefore, I can’t help people. People just care about you helping them at the end of the day.

Kim Meninger Yeah. Right. And well, that actually speaks to, you know, a related point that I often share about managing impostor syndrome is, when you are focusing on being of service, when you’re simply thinking about how can I be of greatest help to this other person or to this team to this project, whatever it is, that I’m less likely to be in my own head thinking about what I don’t know, or how I don’t measure up because I’m focused on the outcome. I’m focused on the external experience. And so I think that that ties in there too, if you choose what to focus on, you can choose how you can be of service or you can choose how you compare to other people. That’s going to drive how you see yourself.

Kit Pang Yeah. And that’s interesting, Kim because I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot people say that, but I’m gonna play devil’s advocate. Let’s say they hear you and they say, be of service, be of service instead of thinking to ourselves more. But how do we make that switch? Even though we know that like, yes, I want to create value for my audience. But how be less of myself? Yes, I don’t want to make it about myself. But I still do, like, but how can we make that switch?

Kim Meninger Well, it’s a really good question. I think it requires a certain level of consciousness because from my perspective, the automatic response is the ego-driven response. It’s the one that protects our fragile ego from rejection or failure, or whatever it is that we’re afraid of. Right. So that’s, that’s going to be the risk, the reflexive response if we don’t intervene at a more conscious level. And so I actually encourage people when they find themselves in a moment of doubt, or in a moment of discomfort or anxiety, to ask themselves very specifically, what’s the response here that is coming from a place of service? And so let me give you an example. If I’m sitting in a meeting room, and I have a question, and I’m thinking to myself, I can’t ask this question because I’m gonna sound like an idiot and everyone’s gonna realize I don’t know what I’m doing. That’s an ego-driven way of thinking about it because I want to protect myself from making a fool of myself. But if I asked myself, what would it, what would showing up from a place of service look like? Would it be holding back on asking that question? Because maybe it’s not the right time, maybe, you know, maybe it’s not the right forum? Or would it be to ask the question, because it’s likely that I’m not the only one who has this question. And so if I put this out there, it might actually help other people too, or it might actually take our conversation in a more powerful direction. Now, it’s not about me, it’s about doing what’s right for the moment, or what’s right for the business. And so I think we have that opportunity all day long way to check ourselves, and to decide, I’m going to show up with the intention of being of service.

Kit Pang I love that. But I also think there’s a, I don’t know what we call it, maybe there’s a step in between there before adding that new mindset of be of service. I really believe there’s something we need to let go of. There’s something we need to let go of that we’re holding on before we add that new mindset or different mindsets. Because no matter how much we add, there’s still something that we’re holding on to that we’re not letting go. And because we still have that it doesn’t matter how much we add.

Kim Meninger So what’s that thing that we’re not letting go of.

Kit Pang I think now, this depends on each person. The thing that they’ll do whatever they have to let go. It’s the thing that’s holding them back in the first place.

Kim Meninger Yeah, I see what you’re saying. So could be the, the narrative around the situation, or maybe a bad experience that has happened to in the past that keeps you from being willing to take risks in the future. Something like that.

Kit Pang Yeah, well, maybe let’s say let’s use that example. Someone gets asked a question, well, maybe they want to share an idea. So if we were saying, how can how can we be focusing less on ourselves and be more of service? Right? If that’s the flip side. Maybe what they have to let go of is making mistakes of bad luck. I’m just giving a random, random example. Make, make, making mistakes are bad, and it’s going to harm my reputation. So if that is always there, then it doesn’t matter how much they can be of service to others. If they still think saying uhms or making, saying the wrong thing. It’s still going to harm them.

Kim Meninger Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s a really good point. So does your work focus on helping them get rid of that?

Kit Pang Oh, I would say yeah, I would say both. Removing and then adding, because once you, once you, once you clear everything out, well, what do you do next? So I would say a little bit of both.

Kim Meninger Yeah, well, one of the things that I often talk about too, is to really know who you want to be. So in the moment, if we were to just theoretically imagine a meeting, who do you want to be in that meeting? Do you want to be the person that shares your ideas, that shares your question? Like, what do you value in that moment? What does success look like to you? And then to really try to stay connected to that vision as well. Because it’s really hard in the moment, like you said before, you don’t prepare for earthquakes in the earthquake itself. What, you know, if you say like, I want to be the person who bravely asks the question or who, you know, addresses risks as they show up, etc, I’m making this up. But whatever it is, right, to know that and to really stay connected to that so that when you find yourself in that situation, it becomes a question of, how do I show up in alignment with my values? Or not? Right, and it just kind of gives you more of a blueprint for how to move forward in uncertain situations.

Kit Pang Yes, yes. I think it’s key that people have that. Yeah. Yeah. But one thing I liked. I don’t know why I like to play devil’s advocate. I love it. As an example of procrastination, when people say, I know I need to go to bed at 10. I know, I know my values. I know how, I know that, if I go to bed earlier, it will make me more successful tomorrow. But then 10 pm comes around, they know who they need to be. But they can’t be in bed at 10 pm. That’s right. That makes sense. They know, they know. They know the action. They know, they know what to do.

Kim Meninger Yeah. Well, and I, I would say that takes us back to where we started to, what’s getting in the way. Why can’t you go to bed tonight at 10 pm? What’s keeping you from doing that? And what’s the opportunity there to start chipping away at those things that are keeping you from getting that sleep?

Kit Pang All these problems, so that’s being human.

Kim Meninger Exactly. That’s the hardest thing. Is there any situation that brings you self-doubt these days? Like, have you experienced impostor syndrome recently?

Kit Pang I would say, no, not much, huh? No.

Kim Meninger And do you find that that’s just part of how you see the world? Or do you have to consciously? You mentioned at the beginning, it doesn’t bug you, you notice it, but it doesn’t bug you. Do you find yourself consciously moving on from things? Or it’s just that you’re not in situations that trigger self-doubt?

Kit Pang I don’t think I’m in the situations that would trigger self-doubt.

Kim Meninger Is there anything beyond what we’ve already talked about that you think other people can learn from your experience that like if, if someone else wanted to experience life the way you do with less self-doubt, what would they need to do differently?

Kit Pang I was, I will say, I’ll share a few mindset things that I’ve learned, I don’t know where obviously, there are trainings on Google wherever one is. If you’re a fifth-grader, you’ll be an expert to the third grader. Therefore, you’re just a step ahead. And are you ever able to help others than that set? Most people, even if they’re a college student, that’s too far removed from being a third-grader, so like, they can’t even connect anymore. So again, it helps going back to are you able to help others get to where they need and the next steps? Another mindset thing, I’m just quickly this is great. I would say another quick mindset shift would also be depending on where you want to go with your career, maybe it’s a leader, maybe it’s a CEO, or you want to go up there is, do you want to be the expert, or do you want to be a leader? I believe a leader is knowing how to manage people. So, therefore, you can’t be an expert at this. Yes, you can be an expert, you know, but at the same time, your job is to communicate with others. When you are the CEO, let’s say, for example, you can’t know everything about every little job function, your job as the leader is to get the best information or communicate the information around to help the organization grow. So if that means, if you want to become a stronger leader, it’s knowing how to be okay not knowing everything, because that’s part of the job. You can’t know everything later on.

Kim Meninger I’m really glad you brought up that point because that might have been something you talked about last time, too. And I think that’s really helpful for anybody who sees themselves as being on a leadership track is to recognize that the expertise that you prize today will not serve you as you move on to higher levels of strategic leadership, because to your point, that’s not what that job is about. And so I think that can be helpful in trying to let go a little bit of the expectation of knowing everything and being able to do everything yourself, because it’s just not, it’s just not possible.

Kit Pang Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, we get, we get stuck on the mindsets that we have. And we just see things one way right now. Another one I want to share actually is, I was thinking about this earlier, you know, how they say, if you have more money, maybe you’ll be happier. Right? But we know even maybe, if you’re thinking about it now, when you have more money, maybe you just want more money in a way and maybe you want money. It doesn’t buy happiness, right? At the same time, there’s also a saying that goes, money only magnifies who you are more. Hmm, okay, having more money only magnifies the true self. So, therefore, if you’d like to save now, maybe when you have a lot of money, you’ll still be saving, kind of like Warren Buffett, he doesn’t drive any flashy cars. He still likes to save. But flipping this back on impostor syndrome, same thing. What do you want more of? I think people say I need more skill. I need more knowledge, having more skill. So if you’ve been laid it that way, having more skill or known or more knowledge will only magnify your self-doubts again. So what, what are you not happy with now as the person that you are?

Kim Meninger That’s a really good point. I think that’s a really good point. [Yeah.] Yes, definitely something for everyone to think about. Because we can never know everything. Right. And you’re right. I see this a lot with people who use higher education as a way to compensate for self-doubt, right? Like, well, I’ll just get another degree. You’ve seen people with a million letters after their names and they still don’t feel confident. There’s just, it just makes you so aware of everything else you don’t know. And so, you really like, like you’ve been saying, you’ve got to get to the root cause. Or else you’re just gonna be in school.

Kit Pang You know, not saying it’s bad. It’s good to go to school and learn, but…

Kim Meninger …but with a purpose, that’s beyond just covering for your own insecurities.

Kit Pang Yeah, yeah, I know, I think it’s just so hard to see it ourselves at times. Once we’re able to say like, you know, the other day, I was talking to a potential client. And he’s very young. And you know, some people when they’re young, and they’re really successful, they have these thoughts of people looking at me, like, I’m too young. Like, he’s, he’s the owner of a company that has, like, 50 people. He’s the, he’s the big boss. And he still thinks people are looking at him because he’s young. But he’s the biggest boss out there. You know, it’s…

Kim Meninger I actually had that conversation with someone recently, too, is there’s always something that we see in ourselves that other people don’t see that makes us feel insecure. And it’s all about what, what we do with that, right. We process that and what attention we give to it because nobody’s perfect. And, you know, I think we’re all a work in progress.

Kit Pang Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kim Meninger Well, I’m curious where people can find you. What, what do you want people to do if they want to follow up with you?

Kit Pang I would say you can go to Bostonspeaks.com. Again, my bread and butter if you are facing speaking anxiety, there is a free webinar you can watch, go to Bostonspeaks.com Or email me at kit@Bostonspeaks.com.

Kim Meninger That’s great, Kit. Thank you so much. I love the role of devil’s advocate that you played. I think this is a really great conversation that I’m sure will be helpful to many and so thanks for taking the time to have it with me.

Kit Pang Yeah, thank you so much, Kim. was a pleasure being here.

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