Exploring the Science of Friendship

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore how to make friends in an era of loneliness. My guest this week is Dr. Linda Lin, a psychology professor at Emmanuel College who has spent more than two decades researching and teaching about mental health, happiness and well-being. Through her course, The Psychology of Wellness and Happiness, Linda helps students move beyond surface-level wellness tips to better understand what it really means to live a meaningful and connected life.

Together, we talk about the shifting landscape of connection, especially for younger generations, and how technology, the pandemic and evolving social norms have made it harder to build and maintain authentic relationships. Linda shares what she's seeing in her own classroom, from once-lively chatter before class to eerily quiet rooms where students rarely interact, and how that reflects a broader cultural shift. Linda also breaks down the five essential ingredients of strong friendships and how we can use them to deepen existing relationships or build new ones. This conversation offers simple but powerful tools to help you reconnect with yourself and others.

About My Guest

Dr. Linda Lin is an international expert on mental health who has conducted psychological research on well-being, body image, and health behaviors for the past 30 years and has published dozens of scientific journal articles and book chapters. She has given over 65 national and international presentations around the world and is currently a Professor of Psychology at Emmanuel College and was the Director of Social and Emotional Learning for Moms as Mentors. Dr. Lin has been featured in the Boston Globe, Washington Post, U.S. News and World Report, and Salon.

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Connect with Linda:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linda-lin-a9abb37/

Emmanuel College: https://www.emmanuel.edu/linda-lin

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Linda. I am so excited to have you here. Before I invite you to introduce yourself, I just want to share with the listening audience how thrilled I am to be having this conversation with you today. You and I connected a few weeks ago or so, and we've been chatting about your work and your interests, and I knew the minute I heard it, that I wanted to have you on this podcast. I wanted everyone to be able to hear what I was hearing. So I'm really grateful to have you here today, and I'd love to start by inviting you to just share a little bit about you and your work and you know anything that we should know about you.

Linda Lin

No, well, thank you for that lovely Welcome. My name is Linda Lynn. I'm a professor of psychology at Emmanuel College, where I've been for over 20 years, which makes me sound very grown up. And there at Emmanuel, I teach classes in psychology and mostly in mental health and wellbeing. And the current course that I'm super excited about is a course that I developed called the psychology of wellness and happiness. And so I'm super excited about my like psych of happiness, course. And basically what that is, is all about the scientific techniques to help people feel better, become happier, have more purpose, more gratitude, more generosity, more meaning, you know, in their lives and more connection. And in addition to teaching, I also do research, so I'm also a researcher where, over the past maybe 25 years, I have been doing research on mental health and wellbeing, and more recently, I've shifted my research area over to the loneliness epidemic and around how we can combat that, looking at the science of friendship and social connection and, and then more, most recently, I've also begun consulting and speaking to community organizations to workplaces, to schools to colleges, just about how to combat feelings of disconnection amongst their students, amongst their workforce and just amongst the community, that I think we're all sort of feeling.

Kim Meninger

It's certainly a challenging time for so many of us. I think that there's a lot going on in the world. And then, of course, you mentioned technology, which is kind of a double-edged sword when it comes to staying connected. And I want to, I want to dive more deeply into the friendship piece, but before we do, I want to talk a little bit about the happiness course, because I find that really interesting. And I know this is a very big question, but I wonder how you think about happiness, because there seems to be different perspectives on what is happiness and what should we strive for when it comes to happiness, and how that sort of differs from satisfaction or joy, or some of the other things that we might associate it with, it like. So when you think about happiness, what are you thinking about?

Linda Lin

Okay, so that is a big question, and I think it's interpreted a lot of different ways. So I think there's one side of it, which is sort of the hedonistic affective like, feelings, pleasure, sorry, sort of like, Oh, am I feeling at this moment happy? Like, am I sort of self-indulgently feeling like good at this exact moment? But then there's more of an intellectual sort of component, which is, when I evaluate my entire life, do I feel satisfied? Do I feel sort of connected to my purpose? Do I feel like I have meaning and connection in my life? And that's, that's generally sort of what I'm referring to, is more of the second part of it, more of the larger evaluative when you're thinking about, are you content? Do you feel like you've lived a good life, or is the life that you're living the life that you want to live? That's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about happiness. So I'm not purely talking about, Does it feel good in the moment? Because I don't think that we're necessarily designed to feel happy all the time. I actually think a psychologically well-adjusted and a person with a rich life isn't necessarily feeling pleasure and happiness. 24/7, right? So I'm looking more for that richer, more grounded, purposeful, like, Oh, do we feel like the life that we are living is meaningful and rich to us? Do we wake up in the morning feeling a lot of gratitude for what we have energy to sort of give to other people in our lives, ready to, to contribute and connect to our community and feeling purpose and meaning from that well.

Kim Meninger

And I think the definition alone is really important to our ability to feel happy, because many of us may have different expectations of what happiness means, and especially, like you said, if it's I want to feel a sense of, you know, whatever, pure bliss at every moment of my day. And yeah, that's not setting us up for success.

Linda Lin

Absolutely, we are as human beings. We have a. Feelings, right? Like these, our limbic system and our brain is sort of sensing feelings, and those feelings are meant to be feedback that's going to give us a sense of, you know, sort of what we approach versus what we avoid. You know that all that approach avoidance is it safe? Is it something that I should do more of versus something that I want to do less of, or is fearful or threatening to me? And so we're meant to move around the world having this rich experience of feelings, because the world is rich and complex, and so it really wouldn't. It would mean that something was off in our sensors, if we were just only feeling good all the time, right? And, and I think being able to kind of sense both the joy and the sorrow and the and the stress and fear from the threats and the and the comfort and satisfaction from some of the safety, you know, things around us. I think that's, that's an addict, that's a that's a emotional system that's working well, right?

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I love to think about it that way too, the idea of it being a, you know, feelings being data, right? That pushes in different directions. And I also think you know, you have to experience the, the downsides in order to appreciate the, the upsides, right. Like, what else do you compare it to your if your steady state is just constant happiness right now.

Linda Lin

Yeah, and it's really interesting. There are some studies, particular by one of my old professors, Ronnie Jan Fullman, who is a wonderful human being, but what she would she's the studies on trauma, and sort of, is there any good that can come out of traumatic events. And one of the things that she found is, you know, this sort of post-traumatic appreciation and gratitude that you experience. So you know how often it's really easy to sort of get into this homeostasis of just like getting used to whatever environment that we're in. So human brains are very, very good at actually adjusting to a lot of different environments and so. So it's this idea that when we're sort of, you know, if you look at our lives right now, compared to, let's say, you know, lives 100 or 1000 years ago, our ancestors, our forefathers, were living lives that, compared to now, would be so much suffering, right? So, you know, thinking that we have shelter and warmth and running water and safety and, you know, technology and all these comforts of life, you would sort of imagine, if we looked at our lives right now, we'd be like, Wow, I bet they're happy 24/7 right? Because they have all these things, but we get used to it, and what ends up happening is we sort of, you know, take it for granted, and often only when something's taken away, like a traumatic event, sort of takes away some of these things, do you start to appreciate what you had. And so your comment about, oh, you can only sort of experience, you know, you need some of the sadness to experience the happiness is absolutely true. And in a lot of ways the trick is, how do we appreciate the things that we have without them being taken away, right? So without us sort of losing something for us to fully appreciate it? Is it something that we can appreciate in the moment now that we have it?

Kim Meninger

Ooh, that's a good one. That's like, you know, the, the not, not having to go to the you don't know what you've got until it's gone.

Linda Lin

Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Kim Meninger

Well, you know, I, I've been thinking too, as you're talking about, the fact that technology really throws a wrench into what we're talking about, because now we have these elements of our lives that we may feel grateful for, or that, you know, sort of make us happy to some extent. But then we also see everybody else's lives online and the way that they curate their worlds and show off all of what makes them happy, which creates a lot of comparison, and a lot of I would say, you know, that sense of I don't, I don't necessarily have this, like, a scarcity mindset, right? Like I don't, I don't have the same things that that person has, and so that I'm sure contributes a lot to the difficulty in feeling grateful for, for what we have, or, you know, just not constantly thinking about ourselves in comparison to everybody around us.

Linda Lin

Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, one of the factors that makes people so they've connected a lot of social media, and, you know, phone use to, to depression, anxiety, all sorts of bad feelings, right, low self-esteem. And one of the big mechanisms linking those two things is social comparison. So the more you socially compare yourself to what you're seeing online, right? You're comparing you're. Insides to everybody else's outsides. As they say, that's just such a recipe for disaster, right? To feel bad, and in general, we do. We tend to do a lot of upward Comparison, where we're comparing to people's, you know, you know, highlights reels, instead of comparing to people's sort of worst moments. And that's not what they're showing online, right? So everybody's sort of posting these, these idealized versions of their lives. And so the research does tend to show like the less time you're spending on social media, sort of consuming all this content, that the happier you are and, and in general, the less you socially compare, the better one of the anecdotes or antidotes for social comparison is often sort of appreciating what you have and being able to look at what your gifts, your talents, you know, the things that you've been able to overcome, the blessings that you have in your life. That is actually one of the ways that we can reduce social comparison around us.

Kim Meninger

Is there a practice like is there, is there a practical way? I'm sure there's more than one, but I'm curious if you, if you have recommendations on things that we can do more intentionally to stay connected to gratitude.

Linda Lin

Okay, so there's lots of different strategies and techniques. Probably the one that's been the most popularized, that's the most people have heard of, and that is effective, is sort of a daily, you know, gratitude journal. And I actually think that the studies show that, rather than a daily practice, they find that a weekly practice tends to be more effective. I think maybe that people, when they get into a daily practice, it sort of becomes rote, and you're saying, saying the same things again and again and again. So maybe weekly, and trying to mix up the things that the different domains of your life that you're appreciative of. So there are apps out there, or you could sort of write in a journal to remind yourself to do that weekly. That's really helpful. And what they show is that, over time, it's sort of that, that happiness and wellbeing increase sort of exponentially over time. And so it might take, like three months or whatever, for it to sort of actually start to, to for you to start to notice it in a broader sense, but that that consistency is actually really effective. Another practice that you can do is like a gratitude letter. I actually have the students in my class write a gratitude letter to someone that they've never properly thanked. And so it's, you know, write this sort of two-page letter to someone that's had a big impact on your life that you've never told about this, right? And, and so they write this letter, and I actually have them either on Zoom or in person, like, read the letter to the person that they're thinking. And so it's incredible. Like, everybody's like, crying like, like this, my students are crying. Like, there's a lot of like, sixth-grade art teachers that are going in, really incredible. And so everybody's crying from this and the, the, the happiness and joy and connection that they feel afterwards. Site you know, when you look at studies from that particular intervention, has been shown to be one of the most sort of powerful in the moment interventions that you can do, you see effects for about six months afterwards after doing that. So, yeah, incredible.

Kim Meninger

Well, and I think that this is a good segue into the loneliness piece too, because I think that connectedness is so important to what you're talking about. And I wonder if you could share a little bit more about what you're seeing in the loneliness epidemic. It's something I've seen in headlines. It's something that I think we're maybe tangentially aware of, if we're sort of paying attention. But I don't know if people realize where we are right now in terms of loneliness as a society.

Linda Lin

Oh, I think probably, I'm assuming that your listeners are probably feeling it. I know I'm feeling it. I know everyone that I'm talking to feeling it right, this, this general sense of, of disconnection. And I think if and isolation, and I think if you are a little bit older, and you're able to do a little comparison back maybe 1015, years ago. And you can kind of say, oh, you know, things look different today than they used to feel, or I feel a little less connected at work than I used to feel when I was working, you know, at my office, or whatever, you know, 15 years ago, right, right? And we're seeing these pretty dramatic shifts. And I know, you know, I've been an Emmanuel for the past 20, I think, 21 years. And what is amazing is watching the changes over time in not only myself, but also in the classroom, and the way the students interact with each other. So the reason I got so, you know, excited about sort of developing. This course on happiness and going into the loneliness epidemic and talking about friendship is because I'm not only seeing this in my own life, but I'm seeing it really front and center with my students. So it used to be maybe even like 2018 it wasn't that long ago that, you know, my classrooms were pretty noisy at the beginning of class, like students would sort of trickle in, and they were all sort of noisy, and I kind of had to be like, okay, all right, let's get started. Let me, let me calm everybody and kind of get quiet because they were all sort of talking to each other and connecting and interacting. And then what happened somewhere around phones, you know, somewhere around phones, when smartphones became more ubiquitous and social media became really addictive, right? Became really popular. Somewhere in the late teens, it started getting kind of quiet and, and then covid really sort of put the nail in the coffin, so that what happened is, now I go into classrooms and they are dead silent. So they are dead quiet. And there can be a classroom full of students, but it is dead quiet, and everybody's quietly staring at their phones. And when new students come in, even if they wanted to talk to someone, they feel like, oh, they can't, because it's almost like a library now that they're talking. And I'm trying to encourage them. So I'm doing things where I'm like, trying to get them to, you know, talk to each other, and do all these icebreakers all the way through every single day in the semester, like, to the very last day of class, I have them like, do a little warm up exercise to talk to each other, and it is like pulling teeth. They are they feel like the norm to talk to each other is really changed. People don't sort of talk to each other casually anymore. And then I was asking them about I do this thing at the beginning of every semester where I just offer students extra credit to just meet with me for 10 minutes and I just check in with them, like, how is it going? Have you found your people on campus? You know, are you finding, you know, how your class is going? It's just meant to be a human-to-human check-in. And I used to find that students were generally like, Yeah, I'm actually doing great, and I have lots of friends. And I'm finding now that the students are really struggling. Like, I'd say more than half of them are saying, you know, I really haven't found my people, and I'm really struggling to find my people, or I've some people that I talk to, maybe my roommate, but like, no one else besides that, do I that I really feel connected to? And this is the kicker. This like, blew my mind when I asked them about the dorm. So, for my college experience, you know, I lived in the dorms, and when I've come home from classes, I, you know, you'd kind of like, keep your door ajar to be like, All right, who else is in the hallway? Like, that's here. And you would kind of, you know, hang out with that person. And my hallway in my dorm was like, my family, you know, those were my closest friends, and we were all sort of going into each other's rooms and making a lot of noise. And what I'm seeing now when I talk to students is they're saying, Oh no, we, we never open our doors, like all the doors are closed, and it's like a hotel hallway. They don't feel sort of connected to each other. And I've been talking with students at other colleges, and this is what we're finding, is that the norm, like post covid, is really sort of a sense of quiet, isolation, disconnection, and that's become the norm on campus.

Kim Meninger

Oh, that breaks my heart, because I'm with you. I just remember the, the college experience was so much for me about the relationships and the social aspect of it, and think about it being the way that you're describing is just really, really sad.

Linda Lin

Yeah, yeah. I completely freaked out what I heard. My heart absolutely broke my well.

Kim Meninger

And I think what's sad to me about it too, is that if this were just a, you know, quote, unquote, normal evolution, then people wouldn't be reporting that as a bad thing, right? Like if this were just the natural direction that humans were taking as a result of changes to our society. And you know, we don't look like you said. We don't live the same way that our ancestors did 100,000 years ago, but there's pain attached to this change.

Linda Lin

Yes, and I think for a lot of young people, they, they don't, they don't have a lot to compare it to, particularly if they sort of came up and became socially aware, like during phones and during covid, where isolation feels like the norm. It's funny when I talk to them about what college used to be like, even just, you know, like, eight short years ago, they look at me like, with such like, with such shock and surprise. And it's almost like I'm like, churning butter and wearing a bonnet, because they're sort of like what people used to talk to each other all the time, like, like, that's such an old-timey thing. Like, they, they really sort of feel like it feels very different than what they're talking than what they're experiencing. Yeah, right now.

Kim Meninger

Now, would you say from the conversations you're having with them that they want it to be more like them? They're just not sure how to get there, because they feel like everyone else around them has, has sort of moved away from that.

Linda Lin

Yes, it's interesting. I think that they, they know that they're missing something, they know that they're hungry for connection, but they almost don't know how to get it. Because I think this is something that was built into society as part of just our norm, like just a part of our culture that you kind of had to leave the house. You didn't have phones, right? So you kind of to do your things and to interact with people, to get your dopamine and your serotonin, you needed to leave the house in order to interact with people. And, you know, live your life, right? Go to your job, earn your money, that sort of thing. And sure, there were lots of hassles associated with it, and you had commutes, and you had, you know, lots less flexibility than you have now. And I think what we've done is we have traded efficiency and flexibility for connection, right? So we've set, you know, we basically, like, think about how everything is now, like the self-automated, convenient checkout, right? But we're taking the humanness and the interaction so we don't have to wait right to check out our stuff. We can do it on our own. It's probably faster and more efficient, but we've taken some of the humanness out of it. And you might think like, oh, on the edges, that feels great, right? Like being able to work remotely, or hybrid, hybrid work, that's great. You know, that was such a lovely thing that came out of Covid but I think we're also experiencing the flip side of it, which is, oh, we've got this efficiency, right? We've got this flexibility, that's so great, but we're losing some of the human connection that was sort of built into that system. And I think people who are working right feel this when, especially if you're fully remote, or if you're hybrid, and the cultures at the workplaces, they haven't necessarily. I mean, not every workplace has figured out. How do we get people to feel connected to each other? Think a lot of people that are have been hired since the pandemic are often at least they're telling me that they feel like they really don't know people at work. They don't feel connected to their workplaces, and they don't feel their identity is a at that, at that institution is really solidified. They're sort of feeling really disconnected from it.

Kim Meninger

I hear the same things, and I think it, you know, the like you said, the pandemic sort of brought this paradigm shift in terms of where people were working, and there was this really, I would say excitement among people to be able to work from home for a while, and now there is a lot of resentment and frustration around the return to Office mandates. I think people feel like they're just taking their own individual self back to an office where it's not a collective it's just, I'm going to just have Zoom calls from the work office as opposed to my home office. But I'm not really getting that sense of connection and collaboration that I want, or that people are telling me is the benefit of my returning to this space.

Linda Lin

Absolutely, because it's not just like, oh, force everyone to come back and do their Zoom calls from the office when they could be at home and feel more, you know, with their setup, and not have to leave their house. But you're absolutely right when we're thinking about creating our workspaces and our workplaces and the culture of that, we really have to think about, oh, how do we build in that connection? Because I think the norms and the culture have shifted away from it. So we have to be a little bit more intentional this thing that was sort of hidden and sort of embedded in our cultural practices without even realizing it. We've taken them out. And I think we're sort of feeling like, wait, what's missing, what's missing. We're all feeling a little isolated and disconnected. I think we have to be more intentional in how we put them in.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, and I'd love to talk a little bit more about the way that you help students with this too, because I think you and I have talked about the fact that I think this has a lot of relevance to all of us listening in our own lives. But I also think that there's a way in which we really feel it as parents of children that are coming up in this, you know, very technology-centric generation, many of whom maybe sort of social maturity was thwarted by the pandemic, and are really looking for ways to support our kids. And it sounds funny to ask you this, because it feels like this is what we learn in kindergarten. But for, for you know, teenagers, let's just say who are struggling with how to build connection and are worried that this isn't just how this isn't how things are done, any anymore, right? Like they break into connection. Are there steps that they can take to better connect with other humans?

Linda Lin

Absolutely, you know, I think for a lot of us, when we think about like our friends and how they came into our lives, we feel like the sense of fate, like, like, oh, it's magic. You know, the universe sent these people to me. You know, they, they would know that. You know, my freshman. Roommate was my, you know, was going to be fantastic, or my next door neighbor in the dorm was going to be fantastic. So they sent them to me. But actually, what we know as psychologists and social scientists is that there's actually factors. There are specific factors that can take a person from an acquaintance and turn them into a friend. And if you think about your you know, I'm going to talk, I'm happy to talk about five, but I sort of, you know, identify that I talk to people about, and these are things that, once you sort of identify them, you say, Oh, wait, you know, in my own friendships, those were things that existed, but I didn't know that they were there. But, and now that you know that those five things are there, you can actually sort of engineer them more intentionally to create more connection. So the first one is consistency. So the first one is number one, consistency. And this is the idea that you want repeated exposure with someone again and again. So this cannot be someone that you just meet for the first time and you never see again, right? Even if you have this incredible connection, this needs to be ideally. Friendships tend to be fostered when you see this person repeatedly over time, so someone that you maybe work with, and you see on a regular basis, someone that you're on a team with, someone that you are in classes with, you know, so thinking about our kids and, and, you know, making friends at school or on a sports team or on a club, one of the best ways to sort of create friendships is that repeated exposure of, you know, seeing each other at a club or seeing each other you know, you know, as part of class. So join, join things. Be a joiner is one of the things that I would have you do to see people again and again. The second thing is positivity. So positivity, this is the idea that when you're connecting with someone, you don't want to be all doom and gloom and complaining about things. You want to ideally inject some warmth, some connection, some humor, some empathy, two people should come away from that interaction feeling better, not worse. And actually, when we think about the things that make that we are sort of that make the strongest impression what we're looking for when we're first meeting people, that first impression we the most important characteristic is warmth that we're looking for. We're often looking like, oh, is this person safe? Is this person warm? Like, is this person likable? Like, Are they friendly and kind? Are they okay? So this idea of, you know, in that interaction, show some positivity, show some kindness, show some warmth, right? So, so we just talked about consistency. Second is positivity. Number three, vulnerability. This is the hardest one. This is the hardest one to achieve. And so now what I'm talking about with vulnerability, it I'm not talking about trauma dumping, right? The first time that you meet this person, I'm talking about authentic talk, instead of just purely surface, you know, surface, superficial talk. And so just being able to kind of share little things about yourself, and that increasingly become more and more like authentic and vulnerable as the friendship deepens. And so this is the idea that, you know, don't just stay on the don't give one word answers. Don't say, like, when someone asks, oh, how are you doing? What did you do over this weekend? Don't say, like, fine, nothing. You know. Actually give people information about your life and about and ask about them. So being able to say like, oh, you know what? I actually, you know, we went apple picking this weekend. I'd never, you know, taken my kids apple picking, and this is what happened. Or, you know, have you got apple picking too, just being able to kind of share some pieces about yourself. And it's funny, I just had this conversation with my daughter last night. She was talking about dry texting. Have you heard of this phrase, no dry texters? It's this idea that, like, oh, you know, dry texture is like someone that, you know, you Dex them this big thing, and they write back, like, K, like, or nice, or great or something, but you have, you can't continue the conversation, because there's like, nothing there to hang on to. And she was saying, like, Oh, this is like, like a dry talker, right? Like someone who is just giving you one word answers, and you're like, wait, I have nothing to connect to. It's like this volleyball match, like someone's, you know, served you a ball, you know, when they're trying to talk to you, you know, being able to sort of lob something back, being able to say, like, Oh, let me show you a little bit about myself, and then sort of lob something back to that other person. And a lot of that vulnerability, we're often very scared of, you know, we want to say, Oh, we want to make the best impression possible. We want people to like us. So we want to be like, highly competent and, you know, perfect. We don't want to show any vulnerability. But actually, a lot of the studies around this show that, you know, this is what people like, is the authenticity, is the vulnerability. There's something called the beautiful mess effect, which is this idea that we often think that people will like us when we're not vulnerable, when we don't show the messiness. But actually, when you show the messiness like when people show their messiness, people like them so much more, right? You when you're coming in, you say. Like, Oh, yeah. Like, I haven't figured this out. And you know, my kids are, you know, don't have their lunches packed. And you know they're, they're, they're wearing mismatched clothes, you know, to school. And I, you know, I can barely get things together for work. Like, when you're sharing that with someone, that other person feels safe and feels now like, oh, I can share a little bit about myself, my authentic self, with this person, and they'll understand. So the more vulnerability you can show, often, often, the more powerful it is. And there's this really great study that called, like the 36 question for increasing closeness. And it was in experimentally trying to look at sort of the power of vulnerability, taking two strangers who have never met each other, and basically having them have a conversation for 45 minutes. And what they did was they increased vulnerability every 15 minutes. So it was they were reading and they were asking and answering questions of themselves. You know, for 15 minutes they were asking low vulnerability questions, sort of things like, oh, you know, where did you grow up? Where you from, that sort of thing. Then for another 15 minutes, they asked an answer to each other's questions about a medium vulnerability questions like, oh, you know, what's something about your childhood that you wish you could change? Or, you know, something like that, yeah. And then high vulnerability questions for the last 15 minutes asking, you know, if you were to die today, what would be your biggest regret and what's stopping you from sort of fixing that? Or, you know, you know, what's you know, if you couldn't, you know, if you wanted to say something to someone like what's stopping you from doing that? You know, these things like that are really sort of personal. And doing that for 45 minutes at the end of it, they these two strangers, felt as close to each other as their closest friends, as they felt to their closest friends. [Wow.] So it's this idea that if you just take increasing vulnerability, where you share a little bit about yourself, and then this other person reciprocates, and you keep doing that over time, right? This builds this intimacy and closeness, and that is so scary for people to do right now, right? That vulnerability, but this is actually one of the most powerful ingredients to build a close friendship. So that's number three. And then the fourth one is affirming gestures. So this idea that people are unwilling to invest in friendships if they're worried that they won't be liked, right? We're all sort of scared about, like, making a fool out of ourselves and making these gestures if they're not going to be reciprocated, but if you start sending affirming gestures in advance, right? You can be the person that's like, sort of sending out good signals. So let's say you have this nice conversation with a coworker or with a, you know, another person right out in the world that went really nice, and you kind of want to invest in that being able to kind of send them a follow up text, or saying, like, oh, you know what I heard this song, and it made me think about our conversation, hope you're doing well. Or, you know, when you see them being lighting up and saying, like, oh, you know what I was just thinking about you, and then starting that, you know, saying something, right? This idea that you're sending out these little signals that say, Oh, I like you, you know, I hope you're doing well. And for a lot of people that I talk to, they're like, Well, I don't want to send out signals to someone that I'm not 100% sure that I'm going to be friends with for the rest of like, like the you have to be married to them, right? Like to propose. And I'm like, This is not proposing. This is just literally saying hi and, and it's, it's not the idea that you're finding like, this person that's entirely compatible with you to send out signals. Friendships are not like found. They're created and cultivated over time, right? So that freshman year roommate that is sending you know that that happened to live next to you, it was not this magical person that is the only person that you can get along with. It's probably someone that over time, you cultivated this intimacy, this vulnerability, right, this consistency, like over time, you became more compatible with each other, and then became those friends. So, so setting out those affirming gestures. It's actually a term that we call pebbling, and the reason that we call it pebbling is because penguins actually give each other pebbles. Like when they like each other, they give each other pebbles, so cute. So it's like the idea of human pebbling is being able to send out those little affirming gestures. And it's really interesting, because the studies on this, you know, they've done studies looking at kids who were the most liked in their classes, or, you know, at their schools. And these are not the mean, popular kids. These were actually the popular kids who were likable, like that people actually wanted to be friends with. They were trying to figure out what's, what's special about those kids, is it that they're the wealthiest or the best looking or the best athlete and, and what they found is that it was just the kid who was most interested in all the other kids. So it was the kid who actually showed interest and curiosity first in the other kids. So those were the kids who were, you know, like, oh, like, able, like they were just interested and let you know in other people first. So they were kind of like being the first to like another person. So sending out those affirming gestures goes along. Way, and then the last thing, number five is ego support. So when you are asking people, when they do studies, trying to figure out, all right, what's the number one thing that you're looking for in a friendship, or the most rewarding thing that you get from a friendship, and you might think like, oh, is it charisma? Is it sense of humor? Do I have to be this magical person? And the answer is, No, you don't have to be the magical person. The answer is ego support. And ego support is a fancy term for basically making a person feel like they matter to you. So it's kind of like listening to someone, right, showing that kindness and warmth, remembering what they're doing, putting your phone away, right? Don't, don't be you know, on your phone and texting them while you know, or texting other things while you're talking with them, like, just show interest and curiosity what's going on with you, like, and then listen to them. So the goal of conversation is not to keep people talking, it is to understand each other, right? So when you're asking about someone, be curious and interested, like, what's going on in their lives, and then really listening to them and being able to reflect back, oh, wow. You know, this is what it makes me think and feel like, let's talk and talk about that. You know, just asking them about what they think and feel, and sharing parts of your life with them, and then allowing them to share parts of their life with you, to feel connected. So that's those five things.

Kim Meninger

Yes. Thank you so much for sharing those. Because I think breaking it down into its component parts is so helpful. I think that, you know, like I said, when we were growing up, we probably didn't think about deconstructing friendship, because it was just happening, right? We were just doing it. But nowadays, if you don't feel a sense of connectedness, you need to find ways to bridge that gap. And if you don't know what, what's at the heart of what you're looking for, right? It's kind of like I don't even know where to begin.

Linda Lin

Absolutely. And so if you can look at thinking about, Oh, who do I see again and again and again, right? Who do I have that consistency with being able to show some of that warmth and positivity when you're interacting with them, sort of increases the chances that you're going to take this acquaintance and sort of make it into a friendship. Being able to share little parts of yourself where, you know, don't do one word, don't be that, you know, I guess, dry talker, according to my daughter, you know. So don't, don't just give one-word answers and not give the person anywhere to go with that. Being able to sort of, you know, answer the question with little bits of yourself and sharing, you know, just what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what have you, what did you do? What are you thinking about doing? What are you excited about? And asking questions about that other person, showing that curiosity about their lives too, and not being afraid to, to like a person, right, to show that you're interested in that person, or the show good feelings about that person. And again, when you are interacting with them, just being able to really listen to what they're saying and make them feel like they matter. Right to you?

Kim Meninger

Yeah, you know you and I talked privately about some of the challenges with my own child, who I absolutely adore but he's a dry talker, and he's 15, and I, I was thinking last week, after a couple of those Good, fine responses, right, that he needs an improv class where they teach him the Yes, and right. So I'm like, I can't build off of fine, like you're leaving with nothing. And so I think that that's a really important point, too. Of you got to create space for the, or something, for the other person to hold on to in order for something to keep going.

Linda Lin

Absolutely, I, you know, I like that. I was picturing this tennis metaphor of this idea of like people are serving you balls and they're, you're just, they're just hitting you like, and it's gonna, like, you gotta, there's a little bit of effort involved. Like, you gotta, you know. So if someone says, like, oh, you know, you know, what are you doing? Or whatever you're just being able to say, like, oh, you know, I'm on my way to the grocery store. I was thinking about making chili tonight. You know, I've never made chili. Like, have you like, what are you thinking about making? Or what's your favorite recipe? Just being able to talk a little bit about yourself and then reflect it back, and it takes practice, right? So when you're first doing this, it'll feel really weird, if you're not used to doing it and, and you'll feel really self-conscious. You're like, oh my god, am I proposing marriage to this person? Like you feel really vulnerable by sort of sharing some of these things, especially if you're not used to doing it. But just if you sort of and you don't have to, it's not going to be 100% return. Like, that person may not necessarily pick up your volley and like, hit it back, but just the idea of getting in the practice of doing it again and again, you'll find that you'll actually be able to continue and sustain more richness in your conversations and with other people. They'll lead to more of those, you know, acquaintances becoming friendships, right? If you're just putting out more of those feelings, and it does take a little bit of practice, it'll feel weird. But you know, one thing I do with my students, I have them do this exercise where they're supposed to talk to strangers or acquaintances and sort of, you know, three strangers for three days. And. It's kind of like exposure therapy, because they're all avoiding having these conversations and, and there's like, a ton of people you know that they see again and again, right? Think about, like, your bus driver, your barista, the person down the hall, right, someone in your building that you see again and again, right, that you've never introduced yourself to. You're like, I don't know that person's name. And now it's too weird to ask their name, because I've seen them so much, but I but it's actually okay, like, I have them say like, oh well, introduce yourself. Say, like, hi. You know what? I see you every time I'm in the I'm in the dining hall, and I don't know your name. My name is Linda. What's your name? And then you find out that person's name, and then you're you can say like, Oh well, I see you all the time, and it's so you're always smiling. And I just wanted, you know, I just wanted to introduce myself, and then be able to the next time you see them, right then you can actually say, like, oh, you know, hi, Francisco. It's so nice to see you. Like, I see you're making this stuff again. You know, just being able to have that conversation with a person who knows you then, and just deepening that again and again is actually sort of the way that you build community and friendship. So it's weird. They all like, when the students see that assignment, they're all like, okay, I'd rather drop your class than do this assignment. Like, this is so scary to me and so awkward. Like, I think I'm gonna die from awkward embarrassment, but then they do it, and I think 100% of the time, I haven't had a student that's had a bad interaction, like, like, they, they do it, and they are shocked that actually people responded okay to them and didn't ignore them, and didn't walk away or make fun of them, like people actually talk to them. And now they have people that they know in their hallway that they didn't know before. You know something like that. So it's actually kind of lovely.

Kim Meninger

I love that so much. I wish everyone had to take your course, because, like so many people now, just need that nudge outside of the comfort zone, right? It's like you're just scared to take that first step, and you need the practice that you're describing so glad you're normalizing the fact that it feels uncomfortable, because anything new is going to feel awkward at first. But one of the things that I'm thinking about too, is just the fact that a lot of what you're describing in terms of taking the first step, taking the lead on the conversation, is a form of leadership, and it does come with a certain amount of personal power. And I don't mean that to sound negative, but there is a way in which we give up our own agency if we're waiting for other people to come to us, and that's a really uncomfortable feeling too,

Linda Lin

absolutely, you know, I I heard this phrase from a podcast, but they didn't sort of reference exactly who, who said that. So I can't credit it. I don't know who to credit this. But I said, you know, nobody waves but everybody waves back. And this idea that, you know. How have you been standing there where someone's, like, been waving in your direction, and then you're like, Oh, they're waving at me, and you don't know this person, but you're still waving back at them. And then you find out, Oh, they're waving to someone behind you. But it's this idea that, like, everybody's waiting around for someone else to wave at them, right? So we're sitting in this place where we're feeling a little disconnected at work, or feeling a little isolated right in our classes, or, you know, and we're just kind of waiting for someone to wave at us. And I'm like, you could be the first person to wave, right? Really, this could be you, right? You could be the person that actually goes out and says like, Hi. I'm, you know, I, my name is Linda. I see you every day, but I never talked to you, or I sit next to you in class, or like, you know, I see you, you know, in the office and, and, you know, or on the Zoom, on Zoom, and you have such a lovely smile, and you do such lovely things. But we've never talked. I just wanted to introduce myself and invite you out to coffee or something like that. And it feels really weird. You're like, oh my gosh, I've never, you know this is this feels really vulnerable, like I've never done this before. Feels like you're asking someone out on a date, but, but it's, it's not if you actually start to practice this and normalize it. And a lot of students will come to me and say, Well, I'm terrified of this, like, I don't know how to get the courage to do this. And one of the things that I'll tell them is that I said, this is not about you sort of getting more, you know, getting more power, or whatever it is. It's like, think about it, as other people around you probably feel disconnected and are desperately waiting for everybody to wave at them. I say, you know, when you come into a classroom and it's dead quiet and everybody's staring at their phones, it's not because they don't want to talk to anyone. It's because they probably want to connect with someone, but they don't know how. And the social norm has shifted away from talking to strangers, so now they're just sitting there feeling like, God, I wish someone would wave to me, but I don't have the skills to do this, so you could be so the way to get some courage up to this is to think like, maybe I can help someone else, and maybe not every single so it may not be 100% of the people that necessarily, again, return your volleys right like fit the ball back, but there's probably a lot of people out there who would be really happy for you to exert your personal agency, to connect with someone else and maybe be their friend. So thinking about the times when you felt a. Awkward and isolated, and everybody at the party is talking to someone else, or everybody at the meeting has someone to talk to, but you're the only one that's sitting there quiet, right, being able to say, Oh yeah, I remember what that felt like, and the times when someone did reach out and talk to me that was really meaningful, that meant a lot to me, and that made me went a long way to making me feel comfortable. Maybe I can be that person to someone in a situation where I have more agency or more control, or where I'm in a situation where I'm with other people, like, I know my office place, like I have my friends that I normally talk to, but then there's this new person that just comes into the fold, and maybe they're they don't have people to talk to, or they don't know what's going on, you'll say, maybe I can be that person to them and reaching out and being that, you know the first person who waves, and I guarantee it would go a long way to helping them feeling more integrated and connected. And in turn, you also feel like your circle has broadened and you feel more connected.

Kim Meninger

It's so it's like magical to hear you describe this, because it's really, that's really how it works. It takes. I mean, I'm a big believer in confidence follows action, right? It's not the other way around. You don't work up confidence through any kind of mindset practice. You really just have to do the scary thing, go through the awkwardness. You get to the other side, and your brain realizes, Oh, that wasn't so bad, right? Like the next time is less scary, and so I just love the practicality of what you're sharing, because I think it's relevant to people in everyday workplaces, as well as to our kids, who are still struggling, struggling with how to navigate this. So I I'm just so grateful to you for doing this work and sharing it with us. I honestly could talk to you all day, but I know we're running out of time, so I want to make sure that I give you time too to tell us more about where we can find you your work. I know you're doing speaking now too, and I feel like your conversation would have so much relevance to the workplace today. So where can people find you?

Linda Lin

Well, let's see you can find me at I'm on LinkedIn, you know Linda Lynn at LinkedIn. And you can also find my faculty web page at Emmanuel College. And so there you can that has my email address, so Emanuel College in Boston. And again, my name is Linda Lynn, and you're welcome to email me or reach out to me. And I'm happy to have this conversation with anyone that's interested in sort of how to create more connection in their lives.

Kim Meninger

And I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. Thank you so much, Linda, this has just been such a fantastic conversation.

Linda Lin

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.