Creating Better Workplaces
- Kim Meninger
- 2 hours ago
- 26 min read
In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about creating better workplaces. My guest this week is Ivonne Furneaux, a former corporate executive turned solo speaker and consultant who spent more than two decades leading communications, DEI, and change management efforts at companies across industries, including most recently as VP at Weight Watchers. She now helps companies and individuals navigate change with more clarity, intention and humanity.
In our conversation, we explore the difference between organizational responsibility and personal agency, the myth of hustle culture and how to redefine your worth beyond your job title. Ivonne also shares her powerful “four I’s” framework that any leader, or team member, can use to foster greater trust, connection and engagement at work.
About My Guest
Ivonne is a corporate executive and founder of Empower Up Consulting. She has spent more than 20 years inside some of the world’s biggest brands across healthcare, retail, manufacturing and real estate. She helps organizations—and the people in them—thrive through change and unleash their full potential by exposing the invisible forces that fuel disengagement and disconnection.
Ivonne is a workplace survivalist, a corporate warrior teaching others how to navigate the chaos. She understands the REAL employee experience, and builds culture that works in practice, not theory.
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Connect with Ivonne:
Website: www.ivonnefurneaux.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Ivonne. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Obviously, you and I have been having conversations outside of this forum for a long time. I can't wait to bring it to the community. So I'd love to start by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Ivonne Furneaux
Awesome. Well, I am excited to have the conversation too. So thank you so much for having me, Kim. And I really loved getting to know you over these past few months and, and really connecting. So for your audience, I'll tell a little bit about myself. I am a reformed corporate executive. I spent 20-25 years in the corporate world, leading work like communications and diversity and inclusion. I did a lot of change management, led a lot of companies through mergers, acquisitions, layoffs, reinventions, relocations, you name it. And most recently, I had been a vice president at Weight Watchers, overseeing some work on the HR team, including social impact DEI employee experience and communications. So my career really spanned a lot of really big organizations across a lot of different industries. And last year, like so many others, I got laid off, and I took some time. And after taking some time, I decided that I really wanted to do something for myself and be the voice for my own brand, as I had been the voice for so many others for so many years. And so I embarked on this venture as a solo speaker and consultant. I'd been on a lot of stages over my corporate career. Led a lot of meetings, but now I get to go out and talk to all different kinds of companies and groups about how to create a better workplace, how to lead through change. And I live in the suburbs of Chicago. I've got three kids, and, you know, life keeps me busy, so that's where I am.
Kim Meninger
Well, I want to start. I want to go into like what is happening now and into the future. But before we get want to ask you about your corporate life, and I'm curious, because obviously your own experience naturally informs the work that you do today. Can you tell us a little bit about what you thought? I'm trying to think I had a frame. I don't want to, I don't want to take a very negative, you know, perspective on this. But like, why don't you tell us about your experience in the corporate world and what you, what you liked and didn't like about it?
Ivonne Furneaux
Sure. Well, it's interesting, because, you know, your perspective changes over time as you're living it, you know. So when I first entered the corporate world, my first corporate job, I worked for Target Corporation for five years. That's where I started my career. I actually started as a business analyst, and I was terrible at that job. It was, like, it was, like, a couple of levels beneath buyer, and I was overseeing, like, how much stock we had in every store of a line of jockey panties. And I was just really bad, like, not that I'm bad at math. It was just a lot of detail and little passion on my part for the work, right? I knew my heart was always in the communications part of the business, and so I saw it as my entry point into a great company, and was able to leverage just being within the company to take a lateral move and start in the comms team. So and then over time, over those five years, I was at Target, I elevated. And because that was my first corporate experience, I was like, I wonder what else is out there? You know, maybe there's something better. Maybe this boss I like I don't like so much, maybe I can go find a better one somewhere else. And so I did that. I left after five years, and I found out, hey, guess what? Things aren't always better when you leave and go somewhere else. Oops. I shouldn't have done that, but, you know, it taught me a lot, and from there, I had some life changes. I ended up moving from Minneapolis to Chicago. I had a couple of experiences at different organizations where I made a decision to leave for a better opportunity, or for whatever the circumstances was. And then I had a series of instances throughout my career where a company either was bought out or merged with another company or had a big relocation, major layoffs, reorgs, whatever it may be, I had to make a series of really hard decisions throughout my career, over and over and over again, about whether or not I was going to stay somewhere, whether or not I was going to pick up a move across the country, because the corporate headquarters was moving. And I seem to be faced with these things continually, to the point where, like my friends all said, they will not go work anywhere I worked, because inevitably, something bad was going to happen. So I learned a lot through all of those experiences. And again, this was in a lot of different industries. I worked in manufacturing for almost 10 years. I worked for retail companies for seven plus years. I worked in real estate companies for a handful of years. So the things I learned were that. Yeah, the more things change, the more they stay the same when it comes to a lot of the work. And as much as we want to think that companies are so different from one another, at the end of the day, people really want the same things. People want to be treated fairly. They want to be treated respectfully. They want to feel like informed. They're inspired, they want to feel like they're part of something bigger. And that was a constant, whether I was working for a retail company or a real estate company or manufacturing company. And so I learned kind of this, this take on how organizations operate, and how they can be better, whether or not they are focusing on the people first or not. And so those experiences really shaped everything that brought me to where I was. I also was leading different types of work. You know, I started my career more on the communication side. Over time, I took on more HR and DEI work. Eventually became a chief diversity officer, and eventually I was leading DEI and comms, and so all of those things kind of created this umbrella of experience that gave me different views into how organizations operate. I worked with a lot of CEOs in my day, and also got to see a lot of different leadership styles. And at the same time, as a working mom adult, I went back to school and got my master's degree, and so I was able, then also to combine, like this, academic knowledge with the real life experience and all that kind of now has shaped kind of my point of view that I go out with and help other organizations better understand how to lead through change and how to create better workplace cultures. But I'd say the biggest lessons I learned, if I take all of it, you know, as one big bucket, is that two things, one thing is always constant, and that's change, and at the end of the day, people really just have the same basic needs and desires for happiness at the workplace.
Kim Meninger
So let's stick with that for a minute. Yeah, in so many ways, that feels like common sense, right?
Ivonne Furneaux
You would think, Oh my gosh. You would think that was common sense, right?
Kim Meninger
Yeah. And why is it so hard? What are we getting wrong?
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah. So I think it does seem like common sense. I think what we're getting wrong is both at the organizational level and at the personal level. So at the organizational level, it's really easy to focus on external stakeholders as the most important people that you need to look out for, right? Especially if you're a publicly traded company, you have to be thinking about your shareholders. You're thinking about your customers. And oftentimes employees are like the last ones to be thought of in that list of stakeholders. And I have found that when an organization flips that pyramid upside down and puts employees at the top, you get a much different experience. You get an experience where people feel inspired and they become your biggest advocates. So I think that's one thing that a lot of organizations get wrong is like putting the employees at the bottom of the list instead of the top. On a personal level, I think what a lot of people get wrong when we're in an organization is this false expectation that an organization owes you something. You know, I think we all have to acknowledge that. You know, we, we live in a capitalist system, whether you like it or not, and companies exist to make money, right? And every workplace, no workplace is ever going to be fair. Organizations weren't designed to be that way. The person at the top of the organization is always going to make more money than the person on the front line of the organization. That's the reality of it there. I've never seen any organization where a person working the front line and the CEO make the exact same amount of money. Okay? So if you hear about it, let me know. But So the reality is that there's always going to be gaps in the system of the organization right there are always going to be people who are more informed and less informed. They're always going to be people who have more decision-making authority than others. But you have to exist in the system understanding that and not expecting it to be fair. Once you can get past that, you can understand how to navigate your way in that system more effectively, so that you are empowered to be more informed and more visible and create opportunities for yourself when we walk into it with this expectation that the organization owes us, versus to being empowered to navigate Our own fate within an organization that's where, where we, we fail, and we kind of impact our own expectations and happiness within our corporate career.
Kim Meninger
And that’s really interesting to me, because there is such a sort of a intermingling right between what responsibility the organism. Has and where the personal responsibility lies for the individual and, and I know that it can be perceived sometimes, if we talk about the responsibility of the individual, that we're sort of putting the onus on person and letting the system off the hook. But, but at the same time, if we don't focus on where our personal responsibility lies, or you might call it opportunity, you're disempowering people, right? I mean, it's like, [yeah,] this is a personal agency, and giving people the, the power, so to speak, manage their own destiny.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. You have, you have. That's a I use. I love the word agency, because you do have agency to influence your situation at work. You do have more power than you may realize to influence the culture. You have more power than you realize to influence the people around you. And so I understand the idea that, hey, this is letting organizations off the hook, but we also have to be kind of pragmatic about it too, right? Like some things are, what they are, we're going to do our best to kind of make them better. And the only people who can make them better are the people who are in it, right? You are in it. So you can make it better because you are in it. That said, I don't let organizations off the hook either. You know, if the if you have pay gaps in your organization where people are doing the exact same job and one gender is making more than another, that's an organizational responsibility to fix that is just blatant bias or unfairness and disparity. So absolutely, organizations have responsibilities to fix that. I also think organizations don't do a very good job of managing change or giving people reasons to feel inspired and empowered, right? And so that is on leadership, that is on the organization to not be not forthcoming with information. You know, I say transparency is trust, right? So that's on the organization. That's on the leaders to do those things. So I don't want it to come off like because I'm saying you should be empowered and have agency and take responsibility for your own experience. That does not leave the organization off the hook, because I could go on for twice as long about what the organizations have a responsibility to do.
Kim Meninger
I really appreciate the nuance, because I do think it Yeah, both ways, right? And I hear from too many people who feel stuck in a system that doesn't respect them, right? And I think, you know, it's not as easy as saying we'll just go find something else, especially economy, right? So it's good for people to have an understanding of like, I don't. I don't have to just sit here and tolerate this. There are some things that are within my control that I can start to do.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, there are some things that are within your control. And, you know, finding a new job is always an option. Now you may not like how much time it's going to take, and in this market, it's going to be a lot more difficult than it was even a few years ago, sure, but we're always making those kinds of determinations for what's best for our personal health, wealth, safety, mental state, you know. So you know. And in the past, I was one of those people who would just jump and find a new job when I didn't like something going on at my current job. And that's not always the best tactic either. As I explained, like, I instantly regretted the minute I walked away from Target, and I still look back, I'm like, oh, man, that was good when I worked there, you know. So I think those are all like calculations we're always making, you know, but I hate the idea that people feel, feel stuck, especially right now, when things feel really overwhelming, or people are feeling powerless. So I'd say the, the trick is just to have a little bit of patience, and that's easy for me to say and hard for me to do, because I have, like, no patience. But like I said, sometimes it may just mean giving yourself a longer runway to make the move that you want to make eventually.
Kim Meninger
And that's empowering in and of itself, right? It might not happen immediately, and there may be practical reasons to stay where you are, but even just putting a plan together, even just starting to think about what your options are makes you feel like less of a hostage to the environment that you're in.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, and I'd also say doing things outside of your work that bring you joy. I know, I know too many people who define themselves by their corporate title, or they just work so many hours, you know, on and they're on the finance team doing spreadsheets. And, you know, I know people who like put off having families because they work so many hours, and the next annual reports coming out, and it's like, what is that going to get you at the end of your life? You know? So I really encourage people to try to see. Their identity is more than their corporate job title, because if you can do that, and you can find other things to fill your life with, then you won't feel so trapped, even if you practically are for the time being.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's also really important at a time when there are lots of layoffs. Because I think, yeah, so devastating. And your entire identity is wrapped up in your job, and then you lose that job through your it's not on your own terms, right? And you just feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yes, absolutely, I've been there. I felt that. And it's a terrible feeling, and it's why I tell people, like, don't do what they did.
Kim Meninger
When, when we think about the relationship between the organization and the individual, I always think about the fact that organizations are collections of people. They're not sort of separate entities, right? [Yeah.] So when we think about this idea of what people want and how to create a better workplace for people, what do you think leaders maybe should start thinking differently about or where, you know, where do where's the greatest opportunity for change within leaders to help facilitate the kind of change that you want to see?
Ivonne Furneaux
Sure, it's a great question. First, I just want to say that I don't always love differentiating between quote-unquote leaders and quote-unquote employees, because I think at the end of the day, we are all part of an organization, and in theory, we should all be working toward together toward the same goal, right? And when we start to really differentiate between quote-unquote leadership and quote-unquote employees, we are kind of widening this divide that naturally already happens. And the wider those divides get, the harder they become to bridge, and the tougher time you'll have creating kind of that unity that you need in order to move forward collectively. So that's the first thing. The other thing is, just because someone is, is higher up in an organization doesn't mean that their experience in the workplace is subjectively any better than someone who's, who's quote-unquote lower in the organization. So you know, someone who's a leader, a middle manager, may be feeling the exact same way as somebody who's more junior in their career or in the organization, right? They may be having those same feelings and struggles as anyone else. I actually share this story when I talk to folks that I used to work with, a CEO who once told me that being a CEO was the loneliest job she'd ever had, that she could never really trust what people were saying to her, that it always felt like the hierarchy was getting in the way of, of building real trust in relationships. So I only say that to say, like all of us, kind of are sometimes struggle with the same kinds of things in the workplace, but leaders, because they have that extra level of care and decision making, power and they're leading others, there are a few things that they can do that create a more deliberate and inclusive experience for the people that they lead. So I use a framework I hate to like get into formal frameworks for my talk, but the framework I use is pretty simple. It's four eyes, it's inform, involve, inspire and invest. So these are four very simple words, but every leader can use them. It's keeping your team informed. So being very transparent, because again, transparency builds trust. There is a tendency for leaders to withhold information because they are afraid of what the information, the reaction they will get from the information, and they're afraid that the information will spread, whatever it may be. So there is general, you can generally be more transparent even than you think you can be, right? And so I would encourage leaders to be as transparent as possible with their teams and keep them informed. When people feel informed, they feel empowered. Information is power. And so the second one is involve. That means to involve as many people as much as possible when you can, there are always going to be tables that you are invited to that other people aren't. But can you be the voice for those folks who aren't at the table? Or can you invite more people to sit at the table with you? The more you could involve folks, the more they will feel connected to part of something bigger. Inspire is all about feeling part of something bigger. So giving people a good sense of the future and what the future vision is, and again, helping people feel like they're part of something that's bigger than just themselves, something important. Every company has some kind of purpose that touches people in some way, right if you are, and I was able to find that everywhere I worked. And it's not always easy to do. Do, but it's easy at a company like Target, like I can go shop in the store where I work and I feel a very specific connection because I'm a customer. When you work in a B to B space, it might not be as easy, like in manufacturing, or for a company that made steel and we're stealing selling, like, steel plates. Like I don't, I don't buy commercial steel plates, but I can walk on a bridge that was made with the steel that my team made in the plant, or I can drive through down a highway and see windmills that were created using the steel that were made by the team that I communicated with, so that there's always some way to find connection. And so that's why Inspire is so important for leaders to to do for their teams. And then the last one is invest. And that's like literally investing time and resources. That is leaders like being sponsors for their employees, like giving them leadership and development opportunities, investing their time, I don't know. Have you ever had a boss that like just canceled every meeting with you that's showing a lack of investment of time right? Part of your job as a leader is to invest yourself in your team, and you show that through giving them your time and resources and support. So those are kind of the four things that I talk to leaders about doing, and when you do those things combined, you start to bridge those gaps and create more unity on your team. And those are things too, that we can do as individuals. So we talked about individual empowerment, like you can use the four eyes for yourself, you can invest in yourself, and you can make an effort to be informed instead of waiting for the information to come to you. You know. So they seem so basic, it seems like common sense, but it's really easy to let some of these things fall through the cracks when people are just so busy.
Kim Meninger
Well, and I always love deconstructing big ideas into actionable parts, right? So what I love about your four eyes is they're rooted in action. There are some that might be more complex. You know, certain actions within them might be more complex, might require more resources, etc, but yeah, most part mean, you can do basic, simple human things and a lot of goals, right? And I think that's what I love about the quote, unquote, simplicity. I know it's not simple, but the simplicity of your model, one of the things that I think about a lot, and I'm glad you brought this up when you were talking about that sort of uncomfortable distinction between leaders and employees is that there's almost sometimes an assumption that leaders are these, like very healthy individuals, right, like who aren't struggling with their own insecurities and services and all of the things that everyone else is struggling with. And so when you've got leaders who are feeling under incredible pressure that, you know, and they too worry about losing their jobs, they too worry about, like, sometimes more, yeah, that's true too, you know. And so, so when we talk about the caretaking aspects of, of leadership. It's almost like that if you're not taking care of yourself, you just have an, What is it the empty cup? Yeah, right. And I wonder sometimes about whether or not leaders even have the bandwidth to do some of the busy things that we're talking about. And so do you think organizations when we talk about organizational responsibility, sort of have a role to play in the wellbeing, the sort of support of not just leaders, but everybody, but especially leaders, because they are caretaking.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd say today, leaders have more on their shoulders than ever before, right? With all the layoffs, it means that teams are getting leaner, and leader, leaders are being held responsible for higher and higher standards with less and less resources, and that's a lot of pressure, and a lot of the C-Suite executives I've worked with, they don't know how they got there either. You know, like they are questioning things just as much. So this idea that, like somebody made it to the C suite, so they must be some kind of Einstein and superpower, or something like that, that's just not the case. You know, they've just navigated their career, or had some luck along the way, or, you know, we're very smart in one aspect of a business, whatever it may be. So they are human, just like the rest of us. But I do think that the organizational responsibility is in how they design the work. So what I mean is that I think the tendency when we think about organizational responsibility is their responsibility is to create a wellness program or to offer some kind of app that is going to help people, you know, meditate or get therapy. That's all great, and sure, go for it, but that's not solving the root problem. And the root problem is that the way your organization has been set up has left too few people to do too much work. So how do you simplify what it is you're trying to accomplish? How do you prioritize the work that you're doing so that you don't have so few people doing so much work, there's this concept. I went to school for journalism, and you learn something called the inverted pyramid. And the idea is that when you write a story, you put the most important information at the top right your headline. Some people will only read the headline or the first sentence, so you have to get all the most important information at the top. And this method was created because back in the day, there was a printing press, and people would literally, like, you know, punch the letters into paper. And so if there wasn't enough room, they would have to just chop off the bottom of the story, or they would keep chopping off the bottom of the story until it could fit. And so I think about work prioritization in the same way, what are the most important things you need to do? Because I guarantee you there are things that could fall off the list that nobody would notice, that really don't matter. So I'd say the organizational responsibility is more about prioritization and organizational structure than about giving wellness benefits?
Kim Meninger
Ah, I'm so glad you said that you're absolutely right. Wellness benefits are kind of a band-aid on a gaping wound. Yes, exactly, you know. And I think that is so important to look at the real pressure points, which is overwork and just insufficient resources. You're right. Like, I think this is this too may be rooted in lots of other complex issues, like imposter syndrome, perfectionism, the pressure we put on ourselves. I will often ask people when they tell me how overworked they are, or how you know how much they need to do. Like, is this how much of this is self-imposed versus actual expectation. And oftentimes they do struggle to answer that question, or they can see ways in which they're putting this pressure on themselves and, by extension, everyone else around them.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, yeah, I think, and if I could say, I think as moms, we do it even more, you know, like, because we put this pressure on ourselves, not just in the workplace, but at home, you know, like, you gotta get the dinner on the table by a certain time, where you gotta do such and such with the kids and, and honestly, if that stuff didn't get done, your kids would be just fine, or just as happy. And, you know, but we put this immense pressure on ourselves to be all things to all people. And it's, it's like this impossible standard to live up to, no matter how hard you try, you know, because you're never going to be able to do all of the things for everyone all of the time.
Kim Meninger
That's right. And you're never going to feel if, if that's the way you're thinking about it, you're never going to accomplished in doing it, right?
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, yeah. And I have felt that way, you know, there are times that I'm like, I just can't, I can't meet all these expectations. I can't do everything that needs to be done. But then, when you step back and think about it, like, well, that really doesn't need to be done. You know, like, nobody's gonna die if you don't do that load of laundry tonight. You know?
Kim Meninger
That's right, well, and I want to look at this from the flip side too. So there's the self-imposed piece of this, but there's also hustle culture. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
Ivonne Furneaux
Oh, man, I have my thoughts on hustle culture. I'll tell you, it has been an interesting transition, going from being a corporate leader to being a solopreneur, and that's a transition that hasn't always been easy. It just hasn't been easy. I'll say that, you know there, when you have a corporate job, even though there's some question about how long you're going to have that job, or there may be layoffs or uncertainty there, there is always kind of this reliability, the kind of change that you're experiencing. You experience similar change repeatedly, right? And a lot of times in the corporate world, the only time you're really selling is you're selling a new project idea, or maybe you're interviewing for a new job, and you're selling yourself in that context. But solopreneurship requires you to like, literally, you're the brand and you're selling yourself. And I think hustle culture has seeped into that so much where you feel like. You have to be out there all the time, 24/7, representing your brand, selling, selling, selling. And you never get to just stop and rest, you know. And I think that in itself, has created this unrealistic expectation for how quickly success can come or not come, the level of success you can achieve in what amount of time. And also just this idea that, like, the more you hustle, the, the more value you have as a person you know. And so that, that part, like, makes me sad, you know, like, I don't know what other way to put it. Like, it feels like there's just this personal value attached to how hard you can hustle, and the value of, of being restful or mindful diminishes in that, you know?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, you're right. And I think it gets complicated too, because there are different personality styles, different motivations, like you think about a startup culture where the founder or founders are personally invested at every level in this company, right, and willing to go to extraordinary lengths, just as you're talking about, as we as solopreneurs are doing all the time, right? It's like you just want to build your brand. You want to be out there capitalizing on every opportunity, and then you bring in people to work with you, and you have the same expectation of people who aren't as invested, right? It's like they don't get the financial return that you get when so well, right? Like they don't have the same burning desire that you brought to the creation of this business, but it's trickling down, and then, then it becomes not this, like, I'm driven by this, this authentic desire to want to create something. It's, I'm afraid that if I don't keep up with all the people around me, then I'm going to stand out as the person who's not committed, not ambitious, right? And if I even lose my job as a result of that.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, yeah. I think hustle culture really breeds comparison, you know. And what do they say? Comparison is the thief of joy. Yes, you could compare yourself all day like we could compare ourselves to like Mel Robbins or Brene Brown, right? And like, then we would just go to bed depressed every night if we did that. And I think the other thing, like I said, it just robs us of the benefit of rest. You know, my, my therapist told me recently that rest is morally neutral, and that was such an important message for me to hear, because there's something like, I feel like I'm not doing what I need to do if I rest, you know? And so she was like, No, rest is morally neutral. It's not good or bad. It's just something you have to do.
Kim Meninger
I love that, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, yeah, true. It's like the shame I attached to slowing down and taking a break, right? You know? And I think that what I my sense is that a lot of people are all feeling the same way, but everyone thinks everyone else is in it, right? And so no one wants to see the one to say, Hey, Are we all good with this? We all want to keep doing well.
Ivonne Furneaux
I think part of that too, is just the illusion of social media. I mean, people create personas and illusions of busyness that may or may not be there, you know, because they want to present themselves to the world a certain way, when that's not necessarily the reality behind the scenes.
Kim Meninger
Yes, you're right. And I think that it's that sad too, that the, that the way that we operate, right, like that, that, that performative pressure is to put on a persona that's always on, that's like overworking, right? Yeah, yeah. That's what we perceive to be the standard and that we're trying to meet.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, and there's, there's danger in that too, from the person putting out that persona. I'll give you an example, like somebody told me recently that they figured, based on looking at my social media, that I must just have a full calendar of speaking engagements. And, you know, like, wow, we thought you're just killing it. You just have, you're just totally booked. And I'm like, No, I actually could, you know, always use more work, you know. But I, like, can even created that persona myself, right? Because it's like, striking this balance, like you want, you want to be out there. People know that you're, you're working and you're professional and you have value, but if you do it so much, then people think that, hey, you've just, you're, you are the next Mel Robbins, right? Like, we don't need our help, but you know, you could always use a little, a little boost. So it made me even rethink, like, I'm. Um, I need to be, I need to be more clear with my friends, or more authentic with how I post, so that not that I like, feel like, thirsty for work, but that people see, like, hey, like, she's, she's not, she's not booked 365, days a year, and she's not the next Oprah. Like, you know she's, she's really in the struggle too, just like the rest of us are.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's such a good point for, for people in our type of work, too, right? Because not only do you come across potentially as, oh, she doesn't have any bandwidth for what we need, also, you can also come across as she's really expensive, right out of our league, right?
Ivonne Furneaux
Witch, we are, you know, you and I are out of everybody's League.
Kim Meninger
We still want them to ask, right? And I think to just circle back to where you kind of started, too, is that at the end of the day, if you feel like you have tried to influence the situation strategy, you have done what's within your control, and you've concluded that the kind of change you want to see, is it possible or the system's values don't align with your own values, that you don't have to stay there, and that's a really important thing to hammer home to people.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, you, you are making a choice to stay there, and maybe that choice is for practical reasons, and that's fine, but, yeah, it's kind of like staying in a bad relationship, right? Like, at some point you're making the choice to remain in the relationship or not. And I think the same thing goes for the relationship between an employee and an employer. You know?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, exactly. And I've definitely found myself not thinking this way in the moment, because I didn't have the luxury of self-reflection, but back and thinking like, Oh my God, I feel like it just got out of an abusive relationship.
Ivonne Furneaux
Right. Yes, yes.
Kim Meninger
So, I just think that, not to oversimplify the process, like you said before, it can take some time. It may not, not be easy, but it's always possible, and I think that's important for people to remember it is.
Ivonne Furneaux
And I would encourage people to like not to be afraid of taking a lateral move, doing something working in a different industry than you've worked in before. I think people are really afraid of that type of change as well, or that it's going to be such a setback for them if they go work in a different field or different industry, or take a different type of job role, or even take a lateral move or a step back in pay, but all of those things can get you ahead in the end. So you just have to think like strategically about the moves that you're making, you know, and sometimes taking a lateral move or a step back or going to a different industry can be the right strategy for your career.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. I could keep going and going.
Ivonne Furneaux
I know. We could talk all day, I know.
Kim Meninger
But I want to make sure that people listening have a way to stay connected to you if they want to follow you, learn more about your work, where can they find you?
Ivonne Furneaux
Yeah, follow me on LinkedIn. Of course, building up my followers there, and everybody's on LinkedIn these days, right? And I have a YouTube channel as well. It's Yvonne Furneaux on YouTube, and you can also visit my website. Yvonne Furneaux dot com and I will spell it for you, I-V-O-N-N-E-F-U-R-N-E-A-U-X dot com.
Kim Meninger
Perfect. And I'll make sure those links are in the show notes too, for anybody listening. Thank you so much. It's always such a pleasure to talk to you.
Ivonne Furneaux
Yes, I love chatting with you. Kim, thank you so much. All right, we'll talk soon. Thank you.