In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about finding the right path. As humans, we’re very resilient and willing to tolerate a lot of stress and frustration to protect our comfort zones. But what happens if we take a step back and evaluate what we really want from our lives? This week, I talk with Tony Martignetti, a fellow leadership coach, about his own self-discovery process and how that led him to a major career change. We also explore practical, yet powerful steps you can take to find the path that’s right for you.
About My Guest
Tony Martignetti is a trusted advisor, leadership coach & facilitator, best-selling author, podcast host, and speaker. He brings together over 25 years of business and leadership experience and extreme curiosity to elevate leaders and equip them with the tools to navigate through change and unlock their true potential. Tony hosts The Virtual Campfire podcast and is the author of "Climbing the Right Mountain: Navigating the Journey to An Inspired Life" and the co-author of "Secrets of Next-Level Entrepreneurs."
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Connect with Tony:
https://www.ipurposepartners.com/
https://linktr.ee/inspiredcoach
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonymartignett1/
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Tony. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while now. So I'm so excited that we're here. I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Tony Martignetti
Well, first, I will introduce myself. But I'll first start by saying thank you so much for having me, Kim, it's been great to get to know you more closely over the past few months, but no, we've known each other for a bit longer than that. So yes, I'm thrilled to be here. And I'll introduce myself a bit and say that, my name is Tony Martignetti, and I am a leadership coach, advisor, author, podcast host myself. And I run a company called Inspired Purpose Partners, where I love working with people to really uncover the things that are important to them in the world, and how to get them to create that, through, you know, really seeing what make what impact they want to make in the world and make sure they don't burn themselves out in the process of trying to do that. So that's what I do. And I love doing it. I came from a background of working in biotech for many years. But this is what was my life calling. And I'm thrilled to be doing it.
Kim Meninger
Before we start talking about how you think about that, in the context of supporting other people, I'd love to hear more about your own personal story. How did you know that this was what you wanted to do? Was there a turning point? Was there like a light bulb moment? How did you get here,
Tony Martignetti
I've had many light bulb moments, and maybe I will use the term I often use, which is a flashpoint moment, which is like more, you know, I say, like more explosive than just a light bulb. So the first big one for me was this period where I started to feel myself burning out. I was working really hard, putting, putting in so many hours trying to show up as this person who is a successful finance executive in the world of biotech, and I started to lose all the color in my life, I was someone who's known as being very vivacious, and very much, you know, the colorful person in in the world. But I started to lose the color of who I was, and not enjoying life, like I used to. I don't think everyone saw that I think I was the one who experienced the more internally. And it got to the point where I was only working. That was all I was doing. I was taking vacations. I wasn't really spending time with family. And that wasn't a life. I wanted to live any longer. So I had this moment, really dark moment where I said, like, what am I looking for? And that flipped a script in me and said, Well, look, I have to choose a different path, I have to clean the slate and figure out what do I want my life to me. And I started to rebuild from there. And that's was the first real Flashpoint that changed the way I navigated life. And it was also because I wanted to be there for my family in the long term. So hate to go so dark. But I think it's important to point out that first Flashpoint changed the way I looked at the world. The second big Flashpoint was after I had built some tools around being hopeful being able to see things in different light was this moment, I sat in a boardroom of a biotech company, and realize that I think I'm done like working in the corporate environment and seeing leaders leading for the wrong reason. I saw these leaders who were basically trying to self-preserve self, you know, be the leader who had, you know, had to be right, had to make sure they look good. In reality, that's not what a leader should be doing. They should be serving their people in a way that inspires them makes them want to show up, want to do the work, and drive them forward with an inspiring vision. And that's what I felt, and everyone else in this room did not feel that way. So I decided to get up and walk out. And I said to myself in that moment that I'm going to leave this room to change this room somehow. I don't know how but it's going to be my next calling. And that calling came in the shape of coaching, which I didn't really know what very much about. But I became very steeped in that through trial and error and probably by fire. But that's really was the biggest Flashpoint moment in my life that put me on a trajectory to doing the work I do today, which I'm so grateful for.
Kim Meninger
Wow. And you know, I love there's so many different pieces to what you just shared. And I think a big part of it is self-awareness, which many of us are not tapped into because we're so busy and so focused on doing and not reflecting. And so there's oftentimes this general sense of Something's not right, or is this all there is kind of going on under the surface, but we kind of push through it and think all kinds of thoughts to try to rationalize where we are like, how did you? I mean, it sounds like this was brewing for a while, right? But how did you reach a point where you have the self-awareness and the courage to recognize I could do more than this?
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, it's like, it builds up, I love the way you described it, there's two things you said that really, you know, mean a lot to me, it builds up and then all of a sudden, you have this moment where you're like, I can't do this any longer the way that it's currently wired, my life is not designed for me to thrive. And so therefore, I had this moment that built up and now have had enough, it's time for me to do the right thing. And then courage was the word you used. That is really powerful. In fact, the one quote that really stuck with me in that early the early days of my leap out of the corporate window, if you will, that image was this quote from Peter Bregman, who's one of the people who really inspired me a lot is, if you're willing to, if you're willing to have, if you're willing to feel everything, you can have anything. And it comes from his book, Emotional Courage, Leading with Emotional Courage, which, when I think about that, quote, it's really having that courage to get out of your comfort zone and to experience all the emotions both good and bad, and in the zone of the unknown, and realize that that's the courage, you need to have to be able to live a life that is really meant for you, even though you're living in this world of, you know, comfort that you've been building over time. That's what drove me to that point where I said, Look, enough is enough. It's time to take the leap.
Kim Meninger
And I love that concept of emotional courage because it's never easy. It's not something that you can take a shortcut to doing. There's no, there's no way to escape the complexity of feelings that are going to come with that kind of a move. It's so worth it.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, and I'll just take that one step further, which is to say, and it's not a perfect journey, either. You know, when you take that leap, there's also a sense of like, I'm not going to get it right out of the gate, or I'm, you know, I'm not going to have all the things figured out. And that's okay. Because part of this is to figure it out as you go along, you know, and trust in the process of becoming who you really are. And I think that's the beauty of this is that, you know, when you have emotional courage, it's so it's dealing with the ups and the downs, and knowing that they're all part of the journey of becoming who you really are, who you're meant to be.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. And when, when you put it that way, I think about how I think about competence, because a lot of times, we think about confidence as this belief that we're wonderful, right? It's like reaching a point where I think I'm fantastic all the time. But what. But what I think about competence, really is what you're describing, which is trusting that I can handle it, knowing it's not going to be hard, I mean, not going to be easy, not going to be perfect, that there are going to be lots of bumps in the road. But I trust myself, I trust myself to be able to navigate that and get to a better place on the other side.
Tony Martignetti
So beautifully said, I mean, it's funny how trust is the, is the word you chose, because it's exactly what we need to start with is when we are untested, like when we have no ability to understand whether we can do the thing that we think we want to do. And we just sit there and we kind of like hold back, we stay small. And what the start of trust is sometimes having someone else believe in us. I always think about that in the context of leadership, great leaders believe in other people, and they give them a chance to live into their, their abilities. And you know, when you don't have people who are feeling that way about you, you, you tend to stay small. So you have to find people who say, look, I see something in you, you don't even see yet. And I think that's what can be really powerful. Now, I feel like that's what I can be for other people is to kind of help them to uncover that ability of like, Hey, I'm seeing something that you're hiding inside of you that is ready to emerge. This and I believe in you. And now it's time for you to believe in yourself. I love that trust in yourself. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. Yeah. And you're right that it often starts with borrowing someone else's trust and confidence in you. Absolutely. So Maybe this is a good time to sort of shift into the work that you do because you said something early on that stuck with me, which is, I'm going to paraphrase here. But the self-preservation piece that you saw, we're seeing a lot in leaders. And I think about this a lot to that. Leaders and just people in general, but it's particularly, I would say, problematic when as leaders because the ripple effect that they have on others, when they're not tending to their own needs, and addressing some of these challenges that we're talking about gaining that self-awareness, having that emotion, emotional courage, the reflexive response, is self-preservation, it becomes all about my ego becomes all about me. And it's not about anyone else. And we live in a time where things are so volatile. And as humans, we don't like change and uncertainty. And so it's just triggering a lot of things within us, that don't bring out the best in us that don't allow us to thrive and don't put us in a position to support others in thriving as well. And so, when I think about where to kind of break that cycle, it's just sometimes I feel so overwhelmed, I think, oh, gosh, there's so much work to do. I think we do it by starting with ourselves, for sure. But then I wonder, you know, as you think about the person who comes to you, and says, I want your help, like, how do they present to you? What, what are they telling you, when they come to you and say, I'm ready to do something different?
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, well, it's, it's funny, the thing that starts with, like, what they're coming to me with isn't always the issue, there's always an underlying issue. And so the first thing might be like, Hey, I'm just feeling like, I can't win in the place on that, you know, there's constant struggle. There's, you know, a lot of infighting, lots of politics, and I just, I want to do good work make an impact. And I want to do it with in a way that actually helps me to feel fulfilled in the work that I'm doing. I want to, I want to have an impact. And I think that's all that I really want. And this challenge that they have is that it's like, they don't want the office politics. And, and I get that the problem is that they need to understand how those politics have become how they did, how did that culture evolve. And how can they fight against that culture in a good way to shape the environment, we have the ability to shape our environment, if we're willing to have the courage to step up and do things differently. And that starts with our self, our understanding of our own awareness of how we can, you know, push ourselves along the path of what's going on in the environment. And if I'm the leader, if, if someone comes to me, and they're this is the C suite, it's understanding how they are implicit in creating that structure. So the more that people share what's happening in their world, the more I understand, like, what are the underlying issues that have created the chaos of Israel, say it in their environment? And how can they can become a partner in shaping it to be a positive environment? And you mentioned earlier about this idea of like, all the things that are happening in the world, and I say use this word chaos, because I think there's a sense of like, we have to become more aware of ourselves, and more intentional how we lead ourselves, so that we can be okay to live and embrace in the chaos because it's not going away. But it's about knowing that how do I stay grounded and intentional in the chaos, because that's what people need for me as a leader, and as a person who's inside an organization is to not be the person who's like, on fire all the time, or creating this sense of like, you know, panic, or creating more chaos. Instead, it's about staying calm in that chaos and creating this sense of level-headed groundedness that we need in leaders. And that's what I do a lot with, with people I work with. I give them that sense of calmness in this workplace that sometimes can be chaotic.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and, you know, you said, leading ourselves and I think that is fundamental to everything that we're talking about. Because, you know, there's always the, the cliche, right, the unfortunate reality that many people get promoted to leadership because they're really good individual contributors, and not necessarily because they know how to be leaders want to be leaders. It's just a, it's a path to greater status and compensation. And so you've got a lot of people who feel thrown into the deep end without any flotation device, or they're just kind of dangling out there. And I think that triggers a lot of the self-preservation We're talking about and so it when in doubt, the best place to start is with yourself. Because if you can start with yourself, then it does become more natural to support other people. And it feels counterintuitive, especially to those of us who are more people pleasers, or who have, have bought into a narrative that sell, you know, sort of any, any investment in ourselves is selfish. Yep. But it's the people who aren't doing the work that are having the biggest negative impact on the people around them.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more with this idea that like, you know, we wish we could go in and kind of change other people. But the idea is that maybe it's about we change ourselves, we lead ourselves better. And by, by default, when we start to change ourselves, we can start to have a ripple effect and how we show up on other people. And, and, you know, what ultimately happens is, we start to see that if our environment does not change, in, you know, we've changed, we may decide that at some point, this is not the environment for us. And that's another courageous movement that we may have to make is deciding, do I want to still exist in this environment? That I, you know, that I cannot change? Or is it time for me to find an environment where I can thrive and be the person who I now want to be? Which is a very difficult conversation to have, and a difficult for many reasons, because, you know, it's about changing jobs, things like that. But sometimes, that's the only choice we have.
Kim Meninger
You're right. And I think it's important to remember that that is a choice, because all too often, I get the impression for people that they feel like they're hostages in their current lives and in their current jobs, because maybe they make good money, maybe the economy isn't great. There's all kinds of reasons why it doesn't make sense to leave. And so they rationalize and settle for something that doesn't allow them to be their best selves.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, which is one of my favorite coaching questions I ask is, you know, what? Are you tolerating that? You shouldn't? And I think that's something that like, it sounds very, you know, puts you on defensive, but the reality is, we need to ask those challenging questions because we tolerate an awful lot in some of the environments that we're in, and that we need to be able to question saying, like, gosh, I shouldn't be putting up with that, you know, you know, an employee that potentially, you know, works for you who kind of disrupts the environment, maybe you need to have a challenging conversation with them and say, hey, you know, this is not acceptable, this is not working for us. You know, that's, that's pushing back on the environment and potentially shaping in different way. And I also want to point out one thing that like, I'm not putting this out here that everyone should go leave their jobs and go start as a, you know, solopreneur, or be, you know, starting your own company. Trust me, there's many challenges with that. And sometimes you can create your own prison by going off and doing your own work. So all I'm saying is that make sure you're taking control of your situation, and know that you have more choices than you think.
Kim Meninger
Yes, very well said. I think that's a great point, too, is that it's not about doing what we did, right? But it's about finding your own path for empowered path forward. Right. So let's shift gears for a moment, cuz I want to talk about your podcast. And you know, we're all products of our own paths, and upbringings and all of the different combinations of factors that have gotten us to where we are. So tell us more about the podcast, what, what you're trying to accomplish.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I mean, if you were to ask me, you know, few years ago, like, Oh, you're gonna have a podcast. And I'd be like, what? I mean, I didn't even listen to podcasts a few years ago. But it became a thing that I really just put into the world. Originally, it wasn't going to be a podcast, it was going to be a series of webinars that I was going to do. But it started to take life. And I started to really, really lean into it and enjoyed this process. The podcast is called the Virtual Campfire. You know, the idea of campfire is this really, you know, we've been having stories around campfires since the beginning of time, at least since the beginning of fire. And I love the intimacy of sharing the stories around campfires. And that's what I wanted to create with the podcast. The, the concept of the show is really bringing people on the show who have been through a transformational journey and sharing their moments that have ignited their gifts into the world through what I call these flashpoints. And, you know, sometimes it's really vulnerable for them to share these moments. There have been a lot of Korean Easy stories that I've heard that I am just honored to be able to create that space for them to share between, you know, being on the verge of, you know, being homeless to being, you know, on the top of their game, to all of a sudden being back to being homeless, again, you know, there's crazy, crazy stories, or just stories of people having to navigate the death of a loved one or an illness, or any number of things that have changed the way they look at life. And what I found is that, the more we go back and look at the moments that have defined us, it actually gives us the fuel to really understand the path forward. And I think that is something that we often only look forward to because we think that's where I'm going. But we have to stop and honor the past and understand where's the, the Insight setting to take with me, and, and use that as a fuel. So that's the podcast, I love that.
Kim Meninger
Because going back to what we've been talking about, of the world, just being so fast-paced, and so dynamic, there is often a lack of space, or we don't prioritize space for connecting the dots, right, so our lives feel like a series of just fragments that are all over the place, and we're not necessarily walking at them through that lens. And you know, when I think about even just my own personal career, it feels pretty, I would say, you know, for a lot of the choices that I made, I felt like I was being very reactive. But when I look back, in hindsight, you can kind of see that you're on this trajectory, right? It's getting you closer to where you're meant to be. And so I love the, the idea of slowing down long enough to be able to do that. And can you share more about, like what you've learned from this process?
Tony Martignetti
Oh, my gosh, I mean, I've learned that there are, it's not all doom and gloom that we experience. Sometimes it's just having one person comes into your life, that like, you know, like I said before, believes in you, and changes the absolute trajectory of your life, I have a story from one of my guests, who sat on an airplane and decided to talk to the person next to her. And having that conversation on a plane changed the trajectory of her, her entire life. That's crazy, serendipitous. And because of that conversation, she's now speaks on stages around the world has written over three, four books now, and is just an absolute joy. I just saw her last weekend, which is really remarkable. But I think that is just those things that you start to see. Be on the lookout for the moments in your life, that might change the the trajectory of where you're headed. Even in this day, it doesn't have to be always in the back. [That's true.] Yeah, the pandemic. A lot of people when I interviewed them, the pandemic was the moment that really changed their trajectory, because they had a moment to really reflect on what's going on. Yeah.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, that's a very good point. I think it'd be interesting, as history progresses to see how many people look back on that, that point, as their turning point. And are there things that you would recommend to people listening, who have not even thought about the, this before, or maybe haven't figured out how to structure it in the context of all of the other demands of their lives? Like, are there simple ways to get started in the type of reflection that you're talking about?
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I mean, there's an old exercise that has been done for many years. But it's a good starting point of just looking back and doing a timeline just to draw a simple line. And look at the, the ups and downs and the defining, defining moments that you see in your life. And you don't have to put a lot of like, you know, prolific writing behind it. But maybe it's like, Hey, I was born. That was hopefully that was a highlight. And then what were the moments that happened in the early childhood that you can remember? And what are the things that you remember from your youth that you can still recall? Like I recall, always, that when I was a kid, I was an artist who painted not just like, stick figures in and, you know, in dogs and cats and family members. I painted like rooms and environments, and that had like a feeling to them. And that's something that's interesting because I think about that. And now I feel like the work I do is connected back to the artists who I was.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. I think that's such a fascinating thing to think about because so often what we do in our childhood feel was juvenile or disconnected. Who we ended up being. But if you kind of look back and think, what clues can I get from what, where I spent my time as a child as I was growing up, you know, the things that I was drawn to because I wanted to do them not because somebody was telling me I needed to, or I had all these obligations attached to them. Right?
Tony Martignetti
Exactly. And even furthermore, I will say, there's an example that I can, from my show, and also, from the book that I wrote, Peter Bregman shares like that his earliest Flashpoint happened before he was born. And here's an example that many people don't even think about, how does your ancestry impact how you look at the world, and how has it shaped your view of the world, for example, his family has came from, they were in France, but they were Holocaust survivors, and they had to live in hiding. And I think that is something that has shaped how he looks at his own life, and how he appreciates and understands the lens of what their journey was in how gifted and how honored he feels to be part of where he lives now, which is really kind of cool when you think about it. Because how often do you think about your heritage and think, wow, because of them? I am who I am.
Kim Meninger
Yes, that's a really powerful thing to think about too, just to kind of that more holistic view of how we got to where we are, and some of us are going to have dark pasts, right, we're gonna have stories that are really painful. And I wonder how you think about dealing with and I think this is where emotional Courage comes in, right, but just sort of how do you sit with the pain and still extract the benefit from it?
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, I mean, there's, obviously it's not easy to go back there and look at some of the dark moments. But there's beauty in that darkness that we need to be able to extract and the learnings that we come from it. There's this idea, and I'm sure this is not the first time you've heard of it, but post-traumatic growth, you know, we go through dark moments, and then they become part of what we can turn into something that grows us. You know, one of the chapters in my next book, which is called Campfire Lessons for Leaders, is around, out of darkness comes light. And in particular, there's a part where I explore this, you know, a person who was suicidal, and she used that experience to become a champion for people to not feel alone in their journey of, of suicidal ideation, and things like that. And so it takes a lot of like work. But the idea is that once you can start to see, this experience of had in that in survived, has allowed me to know what it feels like. And now I can help others through my experience, to then go on the journey themselves, to getting where they need to go. So they don't have to suffer like I did. And so that growth is now becomes a superpower or a way to use your gifts in a way that helps amplify a message. That's powerful.
Kim Meninger
And what a way to bring purpose to, you know, an otherwise awful situation. Yeah. Yeah. And not to sound sort of what's the word self-serving here. But I do think that there is benefit to doing that work with others who can support you, charity. And, you know, you and I both do that kind of work or even, you know, mental health counselors and therapists, and just, if it feels daunting, if it feels like that's not going to be a place that you can navigate individually. You don't have to do it alone.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, yeah. I 100% agree. I think that's, you know, that you asked about what the message is that I that the lessons I've learned in the podcast. And that's one of the things that is really the biggest part of this, the biggest successes people have had in their journeys, has been that they didn't have to go it alone, that there's people along the path that have helped them to navigate the darkest moments, and to create the most amazing things in their life. And we always look at the person who's like, look at me, I'm amazing. But that's what got them there is never just them doing it on their own. It's reaching out to people having people on the journey who have championed them or advise them and created a path for them to be able to get where they want to go.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's such an important point to emphasize because too often we either feel like we're burdening in people by inviting them into this process, or that there's somehow weakness in not doing it entirely on our own.
Tony Martignetti
That's one of the things that I often help people to understand is that asking for help is one of the most strongest things you can do. I mean, in fact, the most successful leaders ask for help, because they know that they're up to big things in the world. And if they want to accomplish that big thing, the only way they're going to do that is by asking for the help of other people who are really good at other things.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, and I think it's great to, to position it as a leadership strength too because doesn't, you know, it feels sometimes like, Oh, if I were stronger, I'd be able to do this on my own. But no, I mean, there, everybody has different strengths and different opportunities to give. And I think one of the things that I always come back to is that by asking for help, we empower other people to give their best selves to the world as well, right?
Tony Martignetti
100%, I love that. It's just like, so great. And that's what we need is we need to create ways of, you know, bringing more of other people's, you know, superpowers out into the world and make it more of a collaboration, not just like, the solo person who's out there, like, you know, look at me on the bass. It's, we're all the best. And I think that's awesome when we can come together and create something bigger together.
Kim Meninger
I love that. And so we talked a little bit about the process for reflecting back and kind of thinking about those moments that have defined us. Is there anything else you would recommend to people who maybe are feeling the way you described earlier of? Gosh, I just don't know if this is where I'm meant to be. Is there a first step there that you would recommend people think about taking to just get on the path?
Tony Martignetti
Yeah. So you know, the looking back part is really important. In fact, one of the things that I, that I do with my clients as I have this weekly spark, which is it's a little less expansive in terms of not looking at your past few years, it's more about looking at your past week, and looking at your next week. But it's really understanding what is, what is the thing that I've done last week, that was exciting, interesting, what did I learn? And how can I use some of the learnings from the past few weeks or week and use that as I plan my next week, and make sure that I put into the next few weeks, something that is exciting, inspiring something that makes me want to be, you know, looking forward to the next few weeks? And how does this connect to your question? Well, the idea is that you want to make sure that you're setting yourself up for the little sparks of inspiration, which are going to lead you into the place where you'll start to connect to the path that you want to be on. Because inspiration are, as I say, they're the clues that lead you to your true purpose or to the place that you want to be. And if you continue to do the same thing over and over again, and expect different results, you're not going to get that the best thing you can do is plant some seeds for new things to show up. New inspiration to show up. And what will happen is you'll start to see a path to maybe a different way of navigating your life navigating your career. So allow yourself to be open to these clues. And that is really what I'm getting at is be open-minded.
Kim Meninger
I love the both the power and the practicality of what you just shared because there is so much incremental value. I think a lot of times we think in all-or-nothing terms, right? Either I stay where I am and deal with the misery or I start this whole new life. And it feels like that gap between those two is just so huge. And so I think about when you talk about those sparks of inspiration, and really thinking about what energized me over the last week, or what am I looking forward to even just simple things you can do to create more of those moments for yourself, and then now is going to change how you feel on a regular basis.
Tony Martignetti
Yeah, and then and then you really as you start to reflect more on those things. If you think about this weekly Spark as something that starts to build on it, itself, you'll start to reflect and say, oh my gosh, every time that I design my week around this particular activity, I'm realizing I'm even more excited. So maybe that's what I want to do more of in my life. Right? So it's almost like self-designing your life in a path that is, you know, less of this more of this place.
Kim Meninger
Okay. It's very iterative and very methodical. Right? There's intention behind it. I absolutely love that. Oh, my goodness, Tony, I could talk to you all day. I so appreciate your, your insights and everything that you've shared with us today. For those who want more of you, where can they find you?
Tony Martignetti
Well, thank you so much. The best place to find me is that my website, it's called I purpose partners.com inspired purpose partners.com. Well, sorry, but inspired purpose partners. And if you reach out there, you'll find out about my books, my podcasts, and just ways to get to interact with me. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active there. So find me both places.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. And those links will be in the show notes as well. Thank you again, Tony. I so appreciate you.
Tony Martignetti
Same here. I'm so thankful for this conversation.