Learn & Let Go

In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about managing impostor syndrome. Does impostor syndrome keep you paralyzed and afraid to take risks? Do you find yourself asking, “Do I belong in this room?” If so, you’re far from alone. My guest this week is Damon Lembi, bestselling author, podcast host and CEO of Learnit. Here we talk about his experience with impostor syndrome as a college baseball player. We also talk about how that experience led him to create a 4-step framework for managing impostor syndrome that he continues to use to this day. Lastly, we talk about the importance of helping your people recognize their greatness.

About My Guest

Damon Lembi is a 2x bestselling author, the host of The Learn-It-All Podcast, and CEO of Learnit – a live learning platform that has upskilled over 2 million people. Drawing from his prior baseball career, Damon brings an athlete’s perspective to leadership. Through his journey, he has gained invaluable insights into what helps organizations grow, how great leaders learn, and why learn-it-all companies outpace their competitors every time.

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Connect with Damon:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/damonlembi/  

Podcast: https://www.thelearnitallleader.com/podcast

Website: www.learnit.com 

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Damon. It is great to have you here, and I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Damon Lembi

Well, Kim, it's an honor to be here, so thanks for having me. My name is Damon Lembi. I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area, and by the time I was 15 years old, I love sports. All my friends played sports, and I said to myself, if I'm going to play college or professional sports, it would have to be in baseball, because that's where I was kind of the best at. So I went all in and focused really hard on baseball, and things worked out well for me. I was a high school all American, and my senior year in high school, I was drafted in 1990 I'm dating myself here by the Atlanta Braves, and I had my first big decision to make, do I go to the minor leagues, or I had a full ride to Pepperdine University to play baseball? And my parents were awesome, and they said, Damon, you know, this is your choice your life. Do it? Do what you want to do. And so I went the college route, and that's because I believed in our coach, Andy Lopez, who's a Hall of Fame coach. His vision, Pepperdine was this small, little school with 2000 students, and he's like, We're gonna win the College World Series. We're gonna build a great team and win the College World Series. So I go there, and it's really the first time I really suffered with impostor syndrome. I'm sure we'll get back to that. And, you know, I got hurt, but didn't know if I belonged or not, and I ended up leaving. I got another opportunity to go to Arizona State and play there, and by the way, Pepperdine won the college year World Series year I left. So kudos to them. I mean, what a, you know, setting moonshot goals and making it happen was awesome. So I went to Arizona State. A lot of people told me not to go to Arizona State because they said, Look, there's gonna be 17 guys trying out for first base. And why don't you just go to a small school where you could play and move on with your career, I said, this is my last shot with baseball, and that's something that was so important to me, and my dad, who I really looked up to, used to be a college baseball player and everything. So I went for it, and I got through my impostor syndrome, really. I learned a lot there, and I was waiting to get drafted again. I hit a home run in the College World Series. My wife likes to say, That's my glory days and my glory day moment. And at 22 years old, I didn't get drafted, and here I was. I didn't know if any of my skills were transferable, and I was fortunate. I came from a family who had a lot of different businesses, one of which was this small computer training school that was just opening up in June of 95 called Learn It. And I started there, Kim as a receptionist, June of 95 coming up on 30 years, worked my way up, and here we are, 30 years later, I'm the CEO of learn it for the last 25 years, and we are a live learning platform that has up skilled over 2 million people, all B2B on everything from you know how to become a better manager, how to coach people, self-awareness, and even how to use Microsoft Excel. So in a very quick nutshell, that's kind of my story.

Kim Meninger

Wow. I so appreciate that transition, right? And I love that story. I want to go back to the baseball days for a moment, because this is a natural place for impostor syndrome to show up. But I never really think about it in the context of sports. Of sports, because I didn't play sports, so it's not my own personal experience, but because it's competitive, because I'm sure there's a lot of comparing yourself to others, like, what does imposter syndrome look like as a baseball player?

Damon Lembi

It's interesting because, again, even through high school, I played with all the best players in the country, and got to play internationally and everything. But for one reason or another, when I got to Pepperdine, I came in as a pre-season high school All-American. And for one other reason, everybody else around me was just as good, if not better, and I really questioned myself, like, do I belong here? And that's kind of what it looked like at first. And I have a great story around it is that here I am with all these guys who were the best of the best of their county and their state, and we had our first sit down with our coach, and it was like a performance review. You know, it's probably 45 days into the fall season. And I come into his office, and I sit down, and before I even really say, Hello, Coach Lopez leans forward and he says, Damon, when we recruited you, we recruited you because we believed that you had the talent and the ability to be a star player for our team. You know. A middle lineup hitter, great defensive player, and we're really excited about having you at Pepperdine University. And he said, but unfortunately, over these last 45 days, we've seen that you don't have what it takes to play division one baseball. And he kind of crossed his arms and sat back. And so here I am thinking to myself, which was what was going on in my head over the last 45 days, right? Like, do I even belong here? Am I even good enough? And before I had a chance to respond, Coach Lopez sat forward, pointed at me and said, That is not what we think about you. You know, our coaching staff and myself, we see that you have what it takes to be a great player for this team, you know, but you're not letting yourself loose and playing you're like, paralyzed and afraid, and there's only so much we can do for you. You know, we can work on your hitting and your fielding, but you need to get out of this mind space that's preventing you from unlocking, like, your true potential. And I mean, I was, I don't know if that's the method I would take with people these days, you know, to scare them like that, but it's something that always stuck with me my entire life. Wow, that

Kim Meninger

Wow, that had to have been, because I think if, before he got to the rest of that…

Damon Lembi

I was just like, how do I go home? I just want to go home. I want to see my mommy. I want to sneak out. I'm going to start crying. I will start crying, and I'm just going to get out of here without anybody seeing me. That's exactly what was going through my head.

Kim Meninger

So, yeah, it does sort of, you know, probably doesn't lend itself to lots of different kinds of circumstances, but it probably does work better in a competitive sports environment. But the thing I wonder about too, is once he did get to the end of his statement and really was telling you, essentially, you're getting in your own way, right? It's because you're holding back. It's because you're afraid. Whatever it was that he was saying, did that make you feel motivated? Like, how did you feel from there? Did you feel like, okay, now I know what to do differently? Or did you leave with even more anxiety? What do you do with a message like that?

Damon Lembi

I kind of felt relieved, you know, to see that he did still believe in me because, again, this was 30 years ago, and coaching is even much different, even sports, than in the business world, where it's a lot tougher, you know, it was a lot, you know, the kind of conversations we had back then probably wouldn't go as well as they had today, with, you know, coaches and players. So I kind of felt relieved, but I like to tell you that I left his office and immediately turned everything around. I didn't I got better, but I ended up having, you know, some kind of random accident during a collision, and I got hurt, and I ended up leaving Pepperdine, and I kind of bounced around, you know, I had to go to a junior college, which was a great experience, you know. So I went to this junior college. I played there, then I got this opportunity to go play at Arizona State, like I mentioned before, and when everybody told me, Don't go there, because there's gonna be 17 guys trying out for first base, that's when I really said to myself, thinking back on what Coach Lopez said and everything else, like, look, I don't, this is my last shot, you know, so I'm just gonna leave it all on the field. I'm gonna go all in and I'm just gonna outwork everybody and see what happens. And essentially, that's what I did, and it turned out really, really well for me.

Kim Meninger

So what's interesting about that is that there's an element of I've got nothing to lose in what you're saying, right? If it's your last shot, and I wonder how much the perceived stakes right play into if you were feeling like this is my opportunity to prove myself so that I can get drafted, might your mindset have looked different, right? Then, I'm just gonna, this is my this is it. I'm just gonna leave it all on the field, right?

Damon Lembi

Yeah. I mean, for me, it was, it was baseball was always a dream of mine. You know, I didn't go to too much deal detail, but I was the oldest of four kids, and all my friends were athletes, and it's like, I love sports. And you know, you're kind of coming up here. I was about 20-21 years old, and I'm like, This is it, you know? I mean, am I going to pass up this opportunity? And so I just, I also kind of looked at it. I kind of coined the phrase. Now, I wrote a book called The Learn It All Leader Mindset, Tools and Traits, and I call it purposeful, awfulizing. And when I, when I looked at it as, what is the worst case scenario? Kim, what the worst case scenario is? I fall flat on my face, I don't make the team. Big deal, you know, is that gonna bankrupt me? Is that gonna get me in trouble? No, so it's like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go for it and give it my best shot and really stop. Worrying or having that anxiety, and really kind of see if I am good enough and if I do belong, that's a heck of a lot better. And this goes for your listeners out there who are maybe afraid to apply for a job or try to get a promotion. I'm so you know, happy with myself going for that opportunity instead of looking back all these years later, like, man, what would have happened? You know, the what-if thoughts?

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I think that's so powerful. And I often think about the fact that we are very self-protective as humans, and so our natural tendency is to minimize risk. But what we don't always think about is, what are the risks of not doing something right? We think of the risks of applying for that job and being rejected, but we don't think about the risks of staying in the same place that we are today. And so your point about minimizing the regret over the long term is so important, I think balancing those scales is really critical.

Damon Lembi

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's one of those things where, I think a lot of times, I even see leaders today who they're afraid to get out of their comfort zone, right? Because maybe things won't go as well as they want to, or maybe people will think, Well, I don't have all the answers. And I think as a leader, if you're doing that, you're doing two things. You're studying your own growth, but a lot of times you're studying the growth of the people that you're leading, because you have to have that difficult conversation with them, or you have to try something and fail, so they feel comfortable to try something and fail. So I think a lot of it is just learning how to get comfortable with failure and getting out of your comfort zone.

Kim Meninger

I agree, and I think you know, this is where a lot of what might sound cliche comes up for me, but it's true is you're never going to feel ready to do something that's uncomfortable. You have to do it anyway. You do it, and then your confidence grows on the other side of it. But a lot of times, especially those of us who are high achievers and are used to studying our way into things, there's that feeling of, I'm just going to keep working on it, and then eventually I'm going to feel ready to do it. It doesn't work that way.

Damon Lembi

Doesn't work that way. You got it. You got to go for it. You got to sometimes you just have to say yes and go for it, and then, and then back your way into it exactly. So

Kim Meninger

So you have a framework for approaching imposter syndrome. What does that look like?

Damon Lembi

So I have a four-step framework, which I've been using my entire career, my entire professional career, but didn't really realize that I had a framework. I never shared it with anybody until I, you know, like I said, I wrote that book where I just kind of put it down on paper. And so that framework is it starts off with we already talked about. Step number one is labeling your fear, purposefully awfulizing What is the worst-case scenario? And once you look at the worst-case scenario in step one and say, hey, I can do this. I can get over this, then I move into step two, which is, work hard. I don't think that there. I know that there's no substitute for hard work. And the great thing there's no hack. The great thing about hard work is sometimes it also keeps your mind occupied, so you're less likely to be worrying about things, right? So work hard. Step three is deliberate practice in baseball, when I went to Arizona State, let's say that example, I was a poor fielder, so I had the coach hit me 1000 ground balls. I just focused on that. And I say deliberate practice because sometimes when things are really hard, you might be a hard worker, but you're kind of all over the place, and you might even gravitate towards working on things that you're really good at anyways, but you need to, again, stay focused on what you need to get better at. When I started getting into doing keynote speaks, speaking, you know, there were certain areas where I struggled on, so I just put in a lot of deliberate practice on that, you know, to get better as much as possible. And then when you got a little better, then you move on. Then you move on to the next thing to work on. And then the final step of my framework is now that you've determined what your fear is, that you've worked hard you put into practice, then it's time to learn and let go. Whether you're stepping into the batter's box for baseball, you're stepping on stage, or maybe you've moved into this role as a new manager, stop worrying about preparation and technique, just learn and let go. Give it your best shot and go for it. You know. I mean, you might knock it out of the park. You might fall flat on your face at the end of the day. It's going to be a great learning opportunity for you. You know, I think you might get some feedback, and feedback, to me is like the feel for growth, to get better, but also I think you should just kind of pat yourself on the back that you took, took the next step, and you tried something, because I've seen over the years, so many people pass up opportunities because maybe they just don't think that they're good enough when they really are. You. And so, you know, the steps again are, you know, labeling your fear, working hard, deliberate practice and really learning, and let go and just going for it.

Kim Meninger

I really like all of the steps, but I really want to comment on the Learn and let go piece, because you said just doing it essentially. And I think I am sure this comes up a lot in sports, which I again, don't have a lot of experience with, but I think we all know what it feels like when you're in your head right, and you just do not perform at your best. When you're second-guessing yourself, or you're overthinking it and you're paying too close attention, you just have to do it, right? You just have to let, let it go, as you're saying. And I think that that's a useful lesson, no matter what field you're in.

Damon Lembi

Yeah, absolutely. Again, going back. Let's talk about, you know, keynote speaking. So you're thinking about, where am I going to stand on stage? How am I going to present this, you know, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff? Well, you know the guy who coached me, Darren Bridget, who works at learn it, actually said three hours before, just stop thinking, you know, again, stop thinking you've already done a lot of the work. Just realize that you have confidence in yourself and go out there and it's too late to change anything anyways, and pivot so now just go out there, have fun and give it your best. That's, that's all we can do. We're humans. You know, you're going to have good days, you're going to have bad days. And I think, again, I'll just say that I think we're too difficult on ourselves sometimes, and so I think we should really believe in ourselves more and just have the, the pat ourselves on the back that we actually went for it and tried. It's all about trying, sometimes.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely, absolutely. And I wonder, because you've built a whole career around learning in the work that you do. How do you think about sometimes, I'll be asked, I'll get asked the question of, how do I know if I just have imposter syndrome, or I really don't know enough to do this right, or I don't I don't have the right skills and capabilities, and I'm curious, because of your background in learning, how you would think about filling in some of those gaps without losing your confidence.

Damon Lembi

Well, the fact that I ended up with a career and learning is kind of funny in the sense that I wasn't a good student when I, when I went to college, it was to study baseball. Really. I went to Arizona State, which is now a great Institute for Learning, but what happened to me is, when I started at learn it, I started out as a receptionist, and I did that for two reasons. One was because I didn't want to be put into a senior-level position, because, you know, my dad owned the business, right? And two, I had a big identity crisis. I was a baseball player. I don't know if any of these skills are, if I have any transferable skills, which I learned athletic education is like the best I think you could possibly have. I didn't know that at the time. And so as I, you know, kind of progressed over, you know, teaching classes and doing sales all along the way. Kim, it was all about learning for me, you know, reading books, you know, talking to people, learning. Because I said to myself, if I don't have the skills, which I, you know, I don't even know if I do, especially by the time I got into leadership, I was going to work my way through it, both for myself, but also because I felt like obligation for the people that I was leading to be the best that I could possibly be. And the thing that really stood up for me is, you know, I don't have an Ivy League education or anything like that. You know, I just feel like I'm somebody who's put in the effort, really enjoyed learning and growing, and that's what's kind of kept me going. So yeah, I don't know if I had the skills or not, but I figured that if baseball wasn't going to work out for me, I felt like there had to be something I could be great at. And I just, you know, again, I cliche as you want to say it, I just kind of went all in and said, I'm just going to give my best at learn it, and so that's what I've done. well.

Kim Meninger

Well, and I even love that you just said, there's gotta be something that I'm great at. Because just like you said before, when you're talking about going all in, is trust yourself, right? I think that's such a big part of confidence, is just trusting that you'll get there, or that you can handle it, or, you know, we, none of us, was born with any of the strengths and capabilities that we take for granted. Today, everything was learned. So if we don't know it today, we just have to learn it. It doesn't mean that it's impossible. Maybe we choose not to pursue that path, but it's not because we can't do it. It's because we, we haven't put in the time to practice.

Damon Lembi

And I think that that is really important when we say, trust ourselves, because that's true. But for all your listeners out there, whether you're a parent, whether you're a coach or you're a business leader, I also think it's our obligation to help our people understand how great they are and what they're capable of achieving. I remember early on. In, in my high school baseball career, a coach sitting me down and saying, Hey, you know, Damon, this is look what you've achieved already in your career. And even in my professional career, there have been times where I didn't know if I was good enough for this or that, and having a mentor highlight for me some of the successes I've already had. So I'm not saying you should rely on other people to help get you to trust yourself. I mean, for me, one of the tips I always tell people to do is keep a little note on your phone and write down, you know, some of the successes you've had. So the next time you worry about if you're good enough, kind of reflect back on some of the great achievements you have had. Now, on the flip side, I've been in situations plenty of times over the last 25 years where I've had somebody at all stages in their career and they doubted themselves, whether it was self-doubt or imposter syndrome, where I'd sit them down and say, you've done this, this, this and this. Do you realize how much you've accomplished? And I think that that's one of the greatest things that leaders or coaches or parents can do is help people see what people have achieved and what people are capable of.

Kim Meninger

You’re right, and I think we all have a negativity bias. It's part of our wiring, right? So we're always going to notice that one mistake we made when everything else went well. And so it's great to have people who can help us, you know, see past those blind spots and recognize we're doing better than we think we are.

Damon Lembi

And especially the negativity bias really plays in a lot to high performers, because high performers set up such a high bar for themselves that when things don't go right, sometimes they automatically go to the negative and just helping them and yourself, if you're a perfectionist, either to realize that you don't have to be perfect, and then again, goes back to maybe just focusing on the process of the effort you put into it.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely, absolutely, I think that's critical. And so I wonder, do you ever experience impostor syndrome anymore? Do you feel like this process is just something that you do naturally?

Damon Lembi

Absolutely, I feel impostor syndrome. And I think we all do. And I think if somebody says, if they don't experience imposter syndrome, in my opinion, that they're either lying or they're a sociopath, that's what I think you know. And as you go up the ladder and get more senior in your role. Yes, you have impostor syndrome, and you want to wonder if you belong or not. And I just kind of revert back to this framework that I've used over all these years to work my way through it, but and the other thing is that I've learned and I've gotten better at over the years, Kim is stop comparing myself to other people, you know, because you put some people on a pedestal and then you're trying to achieve what they have, or you think that they're so great, a lot of times they're not as great as they may look to be. And especially when you have conversations, you realize sometimes that, hey, I'm right there. I'm a peer with this person, and even if maybe you're not right. I mean, just be grateful for what you have and what you have achieved and but no, to answer your original question, yes, I struggle with imposter syndrome, and I really just do my best to get myself out of my comfort zone say yes to things that that maybe I'm really afraid of, but I want to accomplish, and then find a way to, you know, try to be successful at them.

Kim Meninger

Yes, that's my secret, too is if I want to do it, I'll say yes, and then figure it out later.

Damon Lembi

What did Sir Richard Branson, one of my favorites. He always says, you know, screw it, let's do it. So yeah, say yes, and then, you know, you committed to it. And I'm one of those people who believes not over-promising and under-producing. So if somebody you know, offers me something, and if I think it through and something like, I took a keynote early on at the Naval Academy, you know, for the like these high ranking fire chiefs, and I was like, am I even qualified to do this, you know, for these people? And I, and I said yes, and I worked really hard at it, and I think it went really well, you know. So sometimes you just got to take a chance and go for it.

Kim Meninger

Exactly. And had you not done that, you would never have had that experience. So yes.

Damon Lembi

Absolutely not, not had that experience. And I would have circling back to what you spoke about earlier, I'd always be wondering, what if? You know, you know, what if. And so I think if that was a 25-year-old Damon, I probably would have turned it down. But the, you know, 50-year-old Damon, with all this experience, I absolutely went for it.

Kim Meninger

I'm curious too about, you know, there's this, I think, misconception, that imposter syndrome tends to strike women only. Sometimes people think it's only women. People are still surprised when I say that it is, you know, not gender specific. Do you find that men are willing to talk to you about it? Are you comfortable? I mean, you're obviously having this conversation with me. You've written about it in your book, so you're. Public about it. But do you find that for men, it's a less comfortable conversation to have? Do you see it among your peers and friends?

Damon Lembi

I think it is a little less likely to hear about it from other men than it is for women. I don't have a huge following on YouTube or TikTok, not even close for any of that, but I did have one little video about, you know, women applying, you know, applying for jobs or going for promotions, who dealt with imposter syndrome and the importance of going for it. And that was, like, one of the most popular ones I ever put out there. And so, but yeah, I think that men have a tendency to be less vulnerable. And I do think, though, at the end of the day, if you're I think that has to do with lacking self-confidence, to be honest, it being, being afraid to bring it up some some of the best leaders. You know, I have my own podcast where I've had some amazing leaders, and they are just humble, and they're okay with saying I don't know or I'm struggling with this, and I think that goes a long way, and as a leader, especially because then you build a lot more trust with your people. But yeah, I think women tend to be more open with having impostor syndrome, but I think guys have the same amount. They just maybe try to hide it.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I appreciate that perspective because that seems to be my experience too. And I think a lot of it comes down to social conditioning. You know, men are expected to be strong and not as vulnerable, and so it may not be as easy to admit right feeling this way, but I think it's so important to hear your story and your perspective too, because it does normalize it for everybody, not just women.

Damon Lembi

And vulnerability doesn't mean you're weak, right? Unless, unless you're, you know, crying, you know, like that, like the crying CEO, that one guy who let everybody go and started crying about it, made it all about himself. I think that if you make it all about yourself, then that's the wrong thing to do. But I think that being vulnerable with confidence is important, you know, just saying, hey, look, I don't have the answers to this. Or, you know what, I'm nervous that maybe I won't get this right, you know. But if you do that, people will want to help you, you know. And whether it's you're struggling with something physical or, you know, in the work world or family, you don't have to go out of the loan. Kim, you know, reach out to your network and just say, hey, you know, help me. You know, I mean, I need some help with this. And I feel like that when I have done that in the past. Or fortunately, I think a lot of people are comfortable coming to me, men and women, and asking for help, because they, they see, I'm open to it. I'm not going to make fun of them or, you know, put them down. I think that going at something and challenges that you have relieves, again, a lot of that anxiety, because you're not, you're not going at this challenge alone, you have support there to help you get through it.

Kim Meninger

That is really important, too. I think it makes a big difference when we see people as support resources, right? As opposed to competition, as you were saying earlier, not comparing ourselves to other people. If people are a couple steps ahead of us, what? What can we learn from them? And if people have done this before, why recreate the wheel, right? We are all in this together, and it's so much easier if we can depend on each other, and I think so much of that is based on the frame that we bring to it, right? Am I perceiving myself as weak for asking for help, or am I looking at this as an efficiency measure?

Damon Lembi

Yeah. I mean, I had this one guy on my show, Rick Jordan, who called it the dummy tax, you know. And it's like, find people that maybe you aspire to, want to be like, maybe, who's a couple of levels ahead of you, and learn from them. So maybe, like you just said, to make it more efficient, so you could, you could not have to go through some of those mistakes. You could learn from some of the mistakes that they've made. And, you know, elevate yourself, you know, without having to go through some of those struggles. And then you can go, turn around and pay it pay it forward, you know, and share some of your dummy tax stories, like, I've got plenty of them to help the next generation or other people who are trying to get from their level up to where you're at.

Kim Meninger

Exactly. Yes, this has been fantastic. Damon, thank you so much for sharing your story and your insights. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work?

Damon Lembi

So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So Damon Lembi on LinkedIn, I mentioned I have a podcast called The learn it all podcast, and so please check it out there. I really enjoy that. And my company's website is learn it dot com, so those are the three best places.

Kim Meninger

Perfect, and those links will be in the show notes for anyone who is interested. And thank you so much once again for being here.

Damon Lembi

Thanks for having me. I had a great time.