Letting Go of the Ladder

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore what it means to build a career with clarity when the path isn’t linear. My guest this week is Sabine Hutchison, CEO, author of Beyond the Ladder and founder of the Ripple Network.

Sabine shares her journey from scientist to entrepreneur and challenges the idea that you need one clear passion or a perfectly mapped-out path. She introduces a more flexible approach to career growth, one that embraces curiosity, experimentation and change.

In our conversation, we talk about why so many people feel pressure to climb the traditional ladder and how that expectation fuels self-doubt. Sabine explains why most careers are actually “zigzags” and how clarity comes from experience, not from having all the answers upfront.

We also discuss practical ways to build clarity in real time, including reflection practices, documenting insights as they happen and integrating personal development into the workday. Sabine shares why collaboration accelerates growth and why success is never a solo effort.

Finally, we explore what it looks like to define ambition on your own terms and how to confidently communicate your path, even when it doesn’t follow conventional expectations.

About My Guest

Sabine Hutchison is the CEO & Co-Founder of Seuss+, author of Beyond the Ladder, and host of Be the Ripple Podcast. A scientist-turned-entrepreneur, she’s passionate about helping leaders and organizations redefine success through clarity, courage, and connection. Sabine has spoken at World Woman Davos, FemTech Life Science Integrates, and Reuters Pharma on leadership, resilience, and equity. Her work empowers women to rise in leadership with authenticity and self-belief.

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Connect with Sabine:

Website: sabinehutchison.com

Ripple Network: theripplenetwork.com

Be the Ripple Podcast: Spotify | Apple Podcasts

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Sabine, it's so wonderful to have you here today. I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Sabine Hutchison

Hi, Kim, thanks very much for, for asking me to come have a chat with you today. So I'm looking forward to it. Who am I? I am someone who's curious. I actually, I just, I love talking to people, so this is interesting for me to be on the other side of the of the mic. I'm a CEO. I've written a book called Beyond the Ladder, and I'm the founder of the Ripple Network, which is a networking platform, actually, to help women focus on their speaking skills. So a lot of the work that I do is really focused on, on areas to support women in their career growth and development, to help them stand up and be even stronger than, than they are wonderful.

Kim Meninger

So have you always done this work? Where were you earlier in your career?

Sabine Hutchison

No, I'm actually, I like, I think I reinvent sometimes. I don't know how often it's like, the you can peel your skin and try new things, and so I've done quite a bit of that. I actually miss scientist. I studied chemistry and have moved into this space. I moved to Germany, 28 years ago and started working at a lab, actually here, and then have started my own company since then. And the space that I'm in now, it's a lot of it is self, self-taught. I've learned it along the way, and just keep trying things. And I think that that's, that's, I think that that's actually the beauty of, of our careers, is actually to try and to practice and see what works and what doesn't, and, and that's what really helps us to, yeah, to advance and to grow and to be happy and to have more clarity in what we do every day.

Kim Meninger

Can we stick with that point for a moment? Because I think there are a lot of us out there who have told us ourselves the story that we should know what we want to do and a linear path for each of us, and so it almost feels like we're breaking the rules, or we're doing something wrong when we are doing exactly as you said, which is trial and error, and we're learning about our process.

Sabine Hutchison

Absolutely. And it's interesting that you say that, because you're right. I think so we hear so much about find your purpose, find your passion. You have to have it, and it's so important. And in my, in the book that I wrote, which is called Beyond the ladder, because I feel that it we're definitely not. We're not, we don't climb well, some people climb ladders, and some people climb ladders, and they're happy with that, but the rut a lot of us are a zigzag and messy ways in our career that don't. If you kind of step back to think, oh, that doesn't. How did that happen? And, and I think that that's actually the joy of the careers to do that, and this idea of a passion and having to know exactly what you want to do. I, I don't agree with that. I think you can have goals and aspirations. And one of the ladies that I interviewed for the book, she said, You know, sometimes I feel like a failure, because I hear people talking about I have a passion, or I have this big vision of what I want to do. And she was like, I don't I have lots of them. I have lots of things that I'm really interested in and that I that I care about and that I want to do. She said, Sometimes I feel like a butterfly, you know, going to different flowers, because that's what I want to focus on for right now, is that is that particular flower and that pollen that's on that flower, and she was like, I want to feel good about that and not feel like a failure, because I don't have this one big grand passion.

Kim Meninger

And how heartbreaking to think that she would feel that there was something wrong with that, because that there's so much, I think there's a benefit to having lots of diverse interests and being able to find joy in lots of different places.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, that is so true, because had I only stayed in my lane as a scientist, I would have never written a book. I didn't know, I didn't know how to write a book. I read formulas. I didn't create these, these stories and more abstract ideas, but to give it a try, and to say, You know what, I'm going to try this, and I'm going to step in and give it a, give it a whirl and see what happens and work with people, that's, I think that's the key. Is there, if there are areas that you're interested in and you don't feel like you're an expert, hello, there are so many people out there that can help you. I had a great copy editor and someone that really worked through the process with me, so she helped me, and she's the expert I had the ideas, and she helped me put the story lines together and to get my ideas out in a very coherent. Way, so use the people around you. I think that that's an important thing, is that you don't have to do it all yourself. If you don't have your one big grand passion, and even if you do have your one big grand passion, you still don't have to do it by yourself.

Kim Meninger

Yes, and there's something so liberating when you allow yourself to really believe that, because I do that, there is also and you know, you I mentioned perfectionism before we hit the record, but I think there is some, you know, many ways in which people sort of feel like, if I am worthy of my success, it will be because I've done it on my own whereas that's just not the reality.

Sabine Hutchison

That's just not the reality.

Kim Meninger

That's not how humans operate, right?

Sabine Hutchison

No. And who has actually, who has? If you really get to the core of that idea, who has done it completely by themselves with no support, nobody, nobody, and potentially, your trajectory can be even faster, or you can have more of an impact if you work with people and you utilize a support team around yourself, so You could get your book on the market faster and help, potentially someone else, because you've, you've decided to collaborate and to get that support. So it's a bit of a, it's just a bit of a mind, mindset shift, I think.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely and since you mentioned the book, I want to talk a little bit about it. What, what is Beyond the Ladder?

Sabine Hutchison

Beyond the Ladder is, I've read so many fabulous books on career development and growth, and I felt for myself there were areas that I would from this book. I thought this topic is kind of interesting from this one. And so I had all of these ideas about what I thought would have been beneficial for me, is beneficial for me now, but also earlier in my career, to pull those together. And so beyond the ladder is this idea that we break away, also from this, this traditional kind of story that a lot of us have been told, that you have to take these steps on the ladder, but there's so many ways to develop and grow your career, and a lot of it is about stories and hearing from other from other women, that you don't have to do it by yourself, but a lot of it is around finding your own clarity and what do you need? So that's the beginning of the book. Is a lot of self-reflection and thinking about your values and what do you, what do you want? And again, it doesn't have to be this one focused thing. You can have 10 things on your list, but to think about, how do I start to prioritize, and who do I need to actually, if there's a section on your on a network and building a network, so if I want to achieve this, who do I need to? That could help me support that. What skills do I need that potentially could help me support that, and with the book, because I'm a very practical kind of girl. I wrote a workbook as well. So I, I love reading, but I also like to get and write and journal, and I have lots of notebooks, and I thought, oh my gosh, they're all these notebooks all over, you know, we've all had, think you probably have a big stack also in your office as well over the years, everywhere, and I wanted this place where you could keep your career bits together, so you can go back and you can reflect and you can look, you know, a few years ago, what was I focusing on? What values were really pertinent for me at that time? Has that shifted? Do I need to potentially expand my network? Do I need a coach? Maybe now. So I wanted to create something that's very much kind of a living journal and partner as, as we move in our career.

Kim Meninger

I love that so much. And I think that, you know, I often talk about the fact that the world is moving at such a rapid pace, and we are so stimulated by the noise around us that we rarely take the time to reflect, to think more deeply. That clarity that you're talking about often eludes us, because we've got so many day-to-day to do things items on our list, right? And so I love the idea of a taking the time to actually reflect on the themes that you describe, but also having a container for it as well.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, you're right. And it's interesting, because I've had some women share with me that they're like, oh, but you know, if I take the time to do this, I need to do it in the evening, or I need it on do on the weekends. I was like, but why is that? Why can't you and your lunch time or your first hour of the day you work on yourself, because it's actually beneficial for your employer, because if you're in a better place, and you step into your day with more clarity, you're able to perform your job better. So I think it we also need to break away from this idea that working on ourselves needs to be done, you know, in the quiet of an evening, or, you know, your Sunday morning with a coffee. Those are definitely times when you can do it, but integrate it into your life, and don't necessarily just plop it into these, you know, these times where they can, where it can easily fall away.

Kim Meninger

You're so right to think. Think about it as it's an investment, not just in yourself, but in your the success of your organization and your team, [100%] work on yourself. And I also find, and I really appreciate the fact that my individual clients often take time out of their work day to meet with me that obviously is better for my schedule. But what I, what I think is really powerful about that to your point, is that there is something different about being in the thick of it than when you are thinking about it later more abstractly. I think if you have a system for taking note of, you know, oftentimes I think about it in terms of energy or confidence, or, you know, what's, what's bringing me the most energy? Where do I feel like I'm adding the greatest value? It's harder to really emotionally connect with that when you're thinking about it later, as opposed to when you’re…

Sabine Hutchison

Exactly at the moment. Because a lot of the things that I talk about are like in the book is actually in the moment. So I also have, for instance, one thing that have is a failure log, is actually to document what you what is would you would consider as a failure, and those are difficult to do because we forget. I don't know, you know what you said earlier, is like we've bombarded with information. And I think it's important to document and to track things like that in the now. So when something happens, go, Okay, I have this place where I can put this down, and then you can still reflect on it later, but you've gotten it kind of out of your out of your head, and on to paper or in a computer, you know, however you decide that you want to document your thoughts and your ideas. So I'm a big fan of doing things right away and actually doing them, because we can fall into this trap again of being so busy that we just don't, we don't take the time to jot things down. I've gotten in the habit where I have a notebook and I'm I write down two things every day. One is that one thing that I'm grateful for, and one is my intention for the day, and that just becomes part of what I do, and it's and it's very beneficial, because it's interesting. The one my intention for the past month has been the same, and I'm a believer too, that practice and hearing things over and over again. So my intention is to be present in the moment exactly for the reason that there's so many things, emails are popping up, I'm getting a message on my phone, and that can be distracting when I'm engaging with someone. So for me, writing it down for almost a month now is now where it's starting, where it's part of my day. It's, it's, it feels more part of me now than something that I wish that I would do, if that makes sense?

Kim Meninger

Yeah, well and what I love about that too, is there, there isn't a lot of patience in the world, right? And we sort of live in this immediate gratification. My husband's always lamenting the fact that, you know, the kids can push the pause button on the TV. They don't have to wait for any, you know, everything at their fingertips. And so I think what you're describing, too also acknowledges the fact that if I set an intention, it takes time, and sometimes we give up too soon. We think, Oh, I didn't do it today so I must not be good at this, and I'm just gonna move on to something else.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, not at all, just to keep with it. It's like I talk a lot about, well, we want to learn an instrument, or we are learning a new sport or a language or anything like that. We schedule time and we practice it, and we practice and we practice and we practice. And then eventually, you know, we get it down, you know, but if you think about those first violin lessons compared to a year later, it's going to be like night and day and, and I think that that that's such a such a practical, it's such a good way to also reflect on what we do with ourselves, is that sometimes we want this fairy godmother to come and wave her magic wand, and voila, we got it, but it just doesn't work that way. And I think, yeah, the patience piece is important that you we forget that we need the practice to do this and the consistency with doing it, and we kind of push ourselves, because it's like going to the gym too, right? January 1. Whoop, whoop. Everyone, everyone's at the gym, but, you know, February 1, it's already starting to go down, but it's, yeah, I'm a big believer of that that kind of consistency is key.

Kim Meninger

Yes, absolutely. I want to go back for a moment to the concept of the latter and get your thoughts on. And this ties back to clarity too. But I have had a number of women over the years almost whisper in shame to me, I don't think I want to be promoted. And there's this sense that I'm once again breaking the rules, that there is this proverbial ladder that we are all supposed to want to climb, and that if we don't want that then there must be something wrong with our ambition, or, you know, there, there's, there's something off about us. And I'd love your, I'd love for you to dig a little bit more deeply into that you were talking about, the fact that, you know, zigging and zagging is, is how most of us grow our careers. I think that there's still a piece there that makes us feel like I should want something that I don’t.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, that is such a good that's such a good point to discuss. I think that absolutely not everybody wants to be a CEO. Not everyone wants to be in the C suite. And that's where the clarity piece comes in. It's like, what do you want? And if you don't want to climb a ladder and you're really happy in your job where you are, you can still look at your career and develop, but you can develop there. You can still bring a new skill sets. You can still network and grow, you know, grow a sponsor within the company that you are. But if you're happy where you are, stay there and, and, but do that well and be happy in that. I think that we all this idea that we all have to have these aspirations again is just, yeah, I don't believe in it. I see a lot of women and men too that are really happy and being in their role. And they want, they want to stay there. They love it, and they do it for years, and but they're really good at what they do, and they feel really happy and fulfilled. So if that's your space, be clear about it, and then yeah, just thrive in that space.

Kim Meninger

Yes, yes. And I often joke that if everyone wanted to be a CEO, most of us would end up feeling like, you know, either disappointment or failure, because there aren't enough unless you start your own business, there just aren't enough CEO positions to go around. And so, yeah, there's a lot to be said for growing your expertise, and, you know, being 100% and do you have any thoughts on conversations to have with your manager or internally when you make that decision? Because I think that's part of the, part of the self-doubt comes to not just from owning that decision, but also having to communicate that to somebody else who may be implicitly or explicit. Implicitly or explicitly pressuring you to go up that ladder.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, I go back to this, to this, this piece on clarity again, and that you think about yourself, you think about your values. Where do they sit, and what do they mean for the job that you're in? And then you start again. I'm I like to write things down, and I don't just have everything in my head, but to write down, you know, why I want to stay in this role, how I can add such impact to the organization in this role, and that's what I want to do. So once you start feeling confident in that first yourself. I believe that that's the first step, is to be feel really good about being in that space, and that may take some time. So again, don't have expectations that you're like, oh, you know, I decided this today, and then tomorrow I need to go talk to my manager. You don't. Build your story around that, and why that this is the right thing for you. And then you're able to articulate that well with your, with your employer, and you can talk about the value that you add there and the impact that you can make on the organization where you are.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I love that. That's it's almost, it's similar in principle to the conversation you would have if you were asking for a promotion.

Sabine Hutchison

Exactly, yep, exactly. But it's like, I'm here, I'm good, and I'm going to make you hugely successful, because I'm going to be fabulous in this position.

Kim Meninger

Yes, I love that. Can you talk a little bit about the Ripple Network too?

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, the Ripple Network. So three years ago, I took a course with a really fabulous lady called Emma Weiner to do a TED talk, and I felt the need. I wanted to tell this story. I just I wanted to also work on my speaking, not necessarily at that point. It wasn't necessarily that I just needed to be on a stage, but I also wanted to improve the way that I tell stories at work and with my team and engage with clients, and I thought that this would be a great way for me to do that. And I loved it. And I ended up writing a talk, which I thought was pretty good. I thought was really happy with it. And the three, two other ladies, there were three of us in the course, all three of us have not been on a TED stage to tell this story. And I started thinking about this, and like, Hmm, this is such a pity, because these stories are really impactful, and we're being limited by a. Can we get on this particular stage? I thought that's such a shame. So I came up with a Ripple Network as a place where we can practice, where you can go in and learn how to structure stories, and we start with sometimes little things, like we have a cohort that's actually starting in February, where you know it's going to be interesting how they respond, because you start by introducing yourself, we look at different ways of how you introduce yourself, because that can be a struggle. One of the ladies that's going to participate, she said, I have to go to a lot of kind of evening events. And she said, I get stuck, and what do I tell people about myself? So this is also something that you can practice and work on. So you start to build your, your you know, your list of stories that you can weave into the conversation. So that's all. What we do in the network, in the Ripple network, is work on those speaking skills. And it's practice, practice, practice, practice. So you record your get a challenge, you record yourself, and then you get feedback from the community and from the partners that are part of the, part of the network.

Kim Meninger

I love that I think that sounds too like a much less intimidating space.

Sabine Hutchison

Yes, yep, exactly. And you start small. And again, that's what I think is so important, because sometimes some of my friends make fun of me, so I get an idea in my head, and I, like, for instance, I was like, I'm gonna knit. I wanted. My friend is a knitter, and she knit sweaters. Well, instead of starting with, like a scarf, like something that's straight and simple, I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna do this sweater. So I buy everything to do the sweater. And so often I don't get further because I've taken on too much. So I'm a big fan of starting small and, and doing that practice, and then it just becomes easier and easier. So the more comfortable you are sharing a story, the more comfortable you are speaking up in a meeting, the more comfortable you are presenting in a meeting, saying, Hey, I'm going to take on this project. I'm going to present to the board, to or to whoever. So it's about this practice and this comfortable space to do it. Because if you think about it, where do you actually practice? You don't. Where can I practice a speech, besides maybe to your partner or in front of the mirror, that's true. There's there. You're limited. So that's what this is about, is to, to take that first step and to record yourself and to load it up. Those are the first kind of like, I'm gonna put myself out there. But it gets easier every time. And that's what the Ripple network is about, is to make that, to make each step just a little bit easier.

Kim Meninger

I love that. And that goes back to the beginning of our conversation too, about doing it with other people.

Sabine Hutchison

Yes, and feeling and we have smaller cohorts. So, for instance, like 12, 12, to 14 people, so it feels much more comfortable. It's not so big. There's still people you don't know. Some companies have done it for actually their, their teams. So they bring their, their team, you know, pick people from their team to come in, but it's smaller, and it, that still can feel uncomfortable, but at least it's that's a bit more manageable than, you know, hundreds of people absolutely to take that first step.

Kim Meninger

Do you have thoughts on sourcing stories? I think a lot of you know, going back to what we've been talking about, with a lot of our day being a blur because we're so busy, do you recommend any practice for keeping track of things that you might want to use as a story?

Sabine Hutchison

Oh, yes, I do mean, do you never heard me talk about this before? Yes, I have a I have an I have a notebook, and I put every put stories in there constantly. I was, it's funny, too. I was just in a meeting with some team members, and I started playing chess over the Christmas holidays with my husband. And so he's pretty good. I'm not. I'm getting there and practicing, and I beat him for the first time two nights ago, yes, and I was sharing the story about this, about how when you play chess, it's so interesting because you kind of have, or at least as when you start, I had this strategy, I'm moving this piece here, and that's where I'm going. But then I forget about this. The other side of the board. There's all kinds of stuff happening there. And I'm like, Oh, he's got, he's already got that piece, because I'm not paying attention to that. So the focus I was like, Ah, this is an interesting, some sort of leadership or working story that I can weave into a conversation about having that bird's eye view, about if I'm just focusing on one piece of moving that forward, I can lose sight of this, and I've written it down. So that's what I do. Anytime I have situations like that, and I think of something, I write it down, and then I really do have a catalog of stories that I pull up. So, sometimes I, if I don't have a notebook with me, I've been at the airport and experienced something, I record. It. I've gotten in the habit of doing things right away, because I forget them if I don't. So that's how I build my storybook of stories to use.

Kim Meninger

I think that's such a great idea. And it also speaks to what you were talking about with being present because you noticed it in the moment. [Yeah,] and I think [so true] sometimes to just breeze right past it, and so that's another way of practicing being present, and being present based on where you are.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, yeah. So true. But, oh, it's all tying together.

Kim Meninger

Yes, exactly, exactly. It's almost as if we planned this and we…

Sabine Hutchison

I know we didn't at all. Actually, this is incredible.

Kim Meninger

I know. Well, this has been such an amazing conversation. Sabine, and I know you, there's a lot more where this came from. So for people listening who want to learn more about you, the book, the network, where can they find you?

Sabine Hutchison

Yes, you can reach out to me directly. My website is as my name, Sabina Hutchison dot com, so you can contact me directly, or you can have a look at the ripple network dot com and there you can find all my contact details. And yeah, if you're interested in learning more or even just having a discussion, I love meeting new people, so like to make connections.

Kim Meninger

Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. And thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Thank you for the work that you’re doing.

Sabine Hutchison

Yeah, thank you, Kim. It was a pleasure.