In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about building confidence by better understanding our bodies. Many of us think of confidence as a belief in how amazing we are and an absence of self-doubt. But if we define confidence in this way, we’ll never achieve it because it’s not realistic. This week, I talk with Zeina Habib, an embodied coach, trainer and project manager, about how to strengthen our confidence. She offers practical tips for how to tune into your body’s sensations so that you can better understand your emotions and more confidently show up at work.
About My Guest
Zeina Habib is an embodied coach and trainer and a project manager. She has 7 years of experience in coaching and training adults and youth in areas such as well-being, confidence building, communication and embodied leadership. She has worked with multiple coaching clients in the MENA region and the US. Her main goal is to help empower women to become more embodied, authentic and grounded.
~
Connect with Zeina:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zeinahabib Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zeinahabib_coaching Website: https://voice-within.com/
~
Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome Zeina! It is such a pleasure to meet you. I'm so excited for our conversation today. And I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Zeina Habib
First of all, thank you for having me here today, I am so excited to be speaking with you too. So let me tell you a bit about myself and my background. I was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon, where I did a bachelor's in civil engineering, and started working in the construction world very different for you know, the coaching world in the communication world that I kind of like right now I'm growing in, I started working in the construction world, and it was an interesting place to be in, you know, there were a lot of moments where I was one woman among like, 30 men in my own company. And it just became a bit difficult as a sense to manage where you, you have to as a young and I was, I was young. So as a young woman, you had to kind of gauge I felt I had to gain respect, you know, like, I was putting so much effort into showing up and being like, hey, I need to be heard, given the culture and given, you know, the position I was in, it was also kind of a challenge. And at that point, I was like, okay, maybe I should get a communication training to understand myself better and see where I'm going. And they were like, when I was starting the training, they're like, you're really good at this. We want you to train with us. So I started training with them that my ICF certification. And at that point, I felt like, Okay, I don't want to stay here, I this feels too small for my personality. So I ended up going to Belgium, I did a master's in entrepreneurship and innovation, and then got a job in Boston, where I am right now. And construction. So I started working also within this world, it felt very different. First of all, culturally, the way people talk to each other and the conversations that happen, and how you show up in the workplace. And three years ago, I also had my LLC and I started my coaching business here, working with tech leaders, mostly on embodied leadership, how do we show up as our best? How do we grow our confidence? How do we grow our communication skills, in order to not just have great ideas that we're working on, but in order to communicate them well, and get people's buy-in to get those ideas to really become a reality. And I really love that I love working with the body. My, I have a background for the last two years, I've been into yoga and dancing, which I was intrigued, like, what does it mean to get both together, and I discovered the world of embodiment. And it's been a really fun journey. It's been, you know, I see a lot of my clients have, some of them at least have a huge reaction and kind of change and grow in that world. And I've seen its effect on you know, growing confidence and getting people to show up differently. And here I am today talking with you. I really love where I'm at. And I'm always looking, you know, to grow more and kind of have new avenues to grow in.
Kim Meninger
That’s so fascinating. I love the, the twists and turns that your career has taken because civil engineering is, you know, when you think about I don't know it deeply. But yeah, just think about that as being so different from what you're doing now. But I guess I'm curious because you stayed with construction when you came to the US, right? Were you still in an engineering capacity, or which had you already sort of shifted to more communications, but within the construction space?
Zeina Habib
So I was doing more project management. I like I did it throughout my career, I was never technical, like even when I was back in Beirut, it was a lot on the procurement side, it was a lot on the cost side. It was about Lean construction, like how do I get everyone to communicate with each other so we can move the project forward? And right now it was the same, like how do I get the subcontractors and the owner? How do I get everyone to communicate so we can make the project work? There is of course, the finance aspect and the money aspect of it. But there's a big portion that is communication. So I've never really done the technical job where it's like details or you know, drawings, which kind of like makes it more makes more sense. where I am right now in my coaching career.
Kim Meninger
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Because that communication piece is often an overlooked challenge in exactly what you're trying to describe when you have to get multiple people with different agendas, different incentive structures, right, different personalities to come together and cooperate. That is a big challenge. And I'm curious when you before you started your own work and really moved into the communication space. What was most challenging for you like what How did you know there was a problem that needed to be fixed?
Zeina Habib
So that was a there was one first of all, there are two side big signs. One of them was I was exhausted, like I had reached a burnout. I was getting sick. Like I'm not a person that gets sick. Often I was getting sick. I was just feeling always also like I was snapping at people in a sense that there was something from my well-being that was missing. And the other one which really like I had hit a limit one day that happened, one of the one of my coworkers was coming into my office. And he made a joke that, like, he's kind of afraid to ask me for something or like, there was some kind of a joke about, like, you know, asking me about something. And I put things into perspective, it was a joke. But it put things into perspective for me in the sense of like, if they have that thinking of there is they're not not to say that they are right. And not to say that all of that hasn't contributed, contributed to where I was. But at the same time, I didn't want to be there, like whatever was that needed to change, whether from my perspective, or my boundaries are how I showed up something needed to change, because I did not want to be this person.
Kim Meninger
Hmm. And that's a huge insight. I think it's hard to get there sometimes. Because we're often very reactive and how we show up, and especially if you're feeling burned out, there's this pressure to just kind of get through the day, right? Like, you know, I've got, I've got my to-do list, I'm crossing things off. And then I'm moving on to the next thing, as opposed to taking that time to reflect and say, this just generally isn't working for me, right? Like, I got to make a change. And that can be scary because you don't necessarily know what that change needs to be. And so I'm curious, how did you once you realize, like, Whoa, this is just not the person I want to be? How did you think about well, what do I need to do next? How did you know it was what you did?
Zeina Habib
I'll be very honest, I didn't know it was.
Kim Meninger
I appreciate that. Because that's probably how most of these things have been raised.
Zeina Habib
You know, one thing I've always been good at, and I've always done in my entire life, and everything, is I throw myself into new things. Like I'll try some new stuff, I'll stumble onto things, I'll do research. And then I'll get taken by something for like, you know, two, three months, and then I'll be like, Oh, no, that's not working. And then, you know, it's a lot. But I got, you know, the 10% of those things was a huge change in my career and personal life. I had been researching a lot of things, you know, I research, I'll be very honest, I researched like interior design. And I researched like psychology, I was like, all over the place and what I was doing at that time, and then one of my coworkers was like, Hey, I did this training, do you want to try it? And I remember saying yes, and like messaging these people, and showing up into a room full of like, random strangers, like never met, and sitting on a table. And people were sharing about like their emotional leads, and just talking about things. And I was like, What am I doing here? And then two, three weeks, and oh, like, this is very interesting. And I love it. And they started talking to me about like, hey, what would it look like for you to train and that and just become part of the team? So I think, for me, and I think, I mean, this is a great strategy that does work is sometimes trial and error, you got to try and see what works and what doesn't.
Kim Meninger
I'm glad you said that. Because I think sometimes especially those of us who are high achievers and perfectionist is we think we have to have the perfect plan, right? Like I have to find a precise solution to this problem. And then if we're not sure we doubt ourselves, as opposed to recognizing that there isn't a perfect way to go about doing this. And we're really not going to know, until we try it. And so, you know, just I don't know how you found that program. And whether that was something that kind of you researched, or somebody suggested it to you, but just be open, right to be open to the possibility that there is something out there that could be useful and, and to not come with a fixed mindset.
Zeina Habib
Yeah, 100%. And, I mean, it was to be honest, it was like suggested by friend that I trusted, so it kind of made it easier. And it is something in my personality, where I've always like loved learning. So for me anything new is like, you know, exciting, and I just want to know more about it. And I want to go there. And I think that is I mean it comes of course its strength. And sometimes it's not. It's doesn't help but in those moments where like, life is just unsure, and I don't know what is next, and I don't know what to do, they help because no matter how good or bad the experience ends up being, you're taking something out of it. You're learning something new, you're learning something about, you know, maybe what you don't like you're learning about what you could change and yourself, what type of people you need around you. There was a lot that I took from this experience that affected my life and even the ones later on that weren't as good. They give me some info information.
Kim Meninger
And that's good way to think about it too is there's, it's never wasted, right? Because even if it's not something that you are going to continue, you've learned what doesn't work for you, right? And you've probably, like you said, taken away some insights that you can use in other ways. So what are you seeing now, having experienced a lot of this yourself gone through these programs? When you are working with other people? What are they asking for help with? What are the kinds of things that they're struggling with? Is it similar to what you experienced?
Zeina Habib
I think it's a variety of things. Um, it's so interesting, because I see it on all levels. So when I'm working with like, the highest executive, and I'm working with the youngest talent, sometimes they come with the same problem. And it's interesting to me to, to see that it is not like, it is not related to where you are in your career, sometimes where you face those, a lot of the things I see is an anxiety of how they show up to others, and anxiety of how they show up in meetings and anxiety of how they share their ideas, and how they communicate sometimes their boundaries, up and down, like what is it like to manage, you know, talking upwards to your managers, and then talking to your reports, all of this kind of communication, and showing up as confidence they confident as a confident person. And it's interesting, because once you start asking people, What does confidence mean, a lot of them have this kind of ideal, like they see someone at work, who's maybe more calm, and then they just think that they have to become that. And then it becomes kind of a myth, like what does it look like to be confident? Oh, it's a myth that I don't feel anything on the inside. And I'm super happy talking. And I show up and everything is perfect. And I think this is the problem is like we're all sometimes hiding was what is happening inside, that we're giving this very wrong image to everyone around us. And not letting others that we are struggling with probably something similar, or something else, like there's a struggle that is happening out there. And I see that a lot. So it's like the anxiety of how they show up the communication, and then the confidence of being able to step up and be themselves.
Kim Meninger
Well, those are some really important points. And I want to go first to what you said about the misperception around competence. Right. And I think part of this is because we have generally as a population gotten really good at putting on a brave face, and pretending like nothing's bothering us. So to the outside world, people think, Oh, she is so put together and she's got a, you know, such great confidence. But if you talk to that same person privately and get her to be vulnerable, she's going to tell you, I was terrified, or I doubt myself all the time, right that there are very few people, you know, with the exception of maybe some sociopaths out there. Thanks, actually live up to what we think of as competence, right? If anybody. And so I think that's part of it, too. And one of the things that I spent a lot of time thinking about is, how do we redefine what confidence means. Because if competence means what you just said, nobody's gonna get there, and it's always gonna feel like we're doing something wrong. So one of the things that I think about when I think about competence is stop thinking that it means that I think I'm wonderful, and everything's perfect, and I'm not making any mistakes. It's competence, to me means whatever happens, I can handle it, right? Because I can't predict what's going to happen, there are going to be things I don't know, there gonna be things I do know. But I trust myself enough to know that whatever situation I find myself in, I can either personally handle it, or I can access resources around me to help me. And if we redefine it that way, it brings competence to a more accessible level.
Zeina Habib
I love this, and it matches so much with the, you know, with definition that I use with my clients and in my workshops and in my training. Because I think, you know, confidence is about growing our capacity. It is not about trying to be someone we're not. It is about growing our capacity to take in emotions, growing our capacity to trust that this is what we can do, growing our capacity to ask for help. I think it's a lot about how do we, you know, do small changes in our habits that make us believe we can rather than constantly trying to take away everything that we're feeling like we're not trying to stripped away the feelings of anxiety and fear and all of that. We're trying to grow our capacity to sit with them or to understand that they are present. Because I don't believe that we could just stop feeling anxious. I mean, I feel with time, maybe you're less anxious, but I don't think anyone will get to a day where like, Oh, I'm not feeling sad, I'm not feeling anxious, like, that is not going to happen. So the other option is to learn how to grow that capacity. And to learn that we can trust ourselves to sit with it, we can trust ourselves that even when our capacity was not enough, next time, we'll figure it out, oh, there will be something we can work with. I think this is like matches what you just said. And also helps people feel like less afraid or less, less of a burden, have to hold, you know, hold up to this word of confidence.
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. That's exactly how I was thinking about it, too. And I was thinking back to what you said too, about snapping at people and burning out. And I think that, that's something to think about, as individuals who know that we struggle with these things, is there's not just personal benefit to working on this. But there's benefit to everyone around us, because especially if you hold a leadership title, how you show up is magnified because everybody's watching it, right? Everybody is reading into your behavior and trying to guess what your motivations are, if you just have a bad day, or bad stretch, and you're not managing your own stress, and you're not self-aware enough to recognize the ways in which your self-doubt is influencing the people around you. There's a ripple effect that comes with that. And it is very powerful. And so I think about just if you're not going to do it for yourself.
Zeina Habib
They do not need to be exposed to that.
Kim Meninger
Because I really think about this at a macro level to have the honor dressed stress that so many people are struggling with in the workplace, because you talked about going into that program, and people talking about their emotional needs and having a conversation that would be just virtually unthinkable within the average, especially a workplace that may be male-dominated, or that's more technical. In nature, people aren't sitting around talking about their feelings. But if we don't think about our feelings, if we're not aware of oh, that just triggered me in this way, or I just suddenly I feel really anxious, I wonder what that's about, then we're sort of blindly going into these environments and not realizing the effect that we're having on each other. And so there's really layers of benefits to what we're talking about.
Zeina Habib
100%. And, you know, funny enough, I used to have, like, I didn't notice it. After I started the training, I used to have some of like, my male colleagues come into my office and just like, you know, vent or be like, super angry and, and like scream, and then they'll be like, Okay, I feel better now. And that was basically, I mean, their way of sharing emotion, that I was like, Oh, I was already kind of doing part of that. And I didn't know, because people need that if you don't do that kind of thing. Things can get, you know, you can burn out pretty quickly.
Kim Meninger
You're absolutely right. And I think that that goes back to the definition of confidence and how almost dangerous it is. Because if we believe that we need to operate at these really high levels of perfection, where we don't show any cracks, right? Like, there's no sign of weakness whatsoever, then it compounds those feelings that are there. It's not like they're not there. But there's that added layer of pressure to hide it. And so I think everybody needs to know themselves well enough to know, this is something I need some, it could be that I just hit the pause button for a couple minutes to get myself back in control again. Or it could be that you know what, I really need to take the day off tomorrow because I'm just not in a position right now. To be my, myself in interactions with my team.
Zeina Habib
And one thing that I found was helping my client is working through the body and the sense of learning to understand where your emotions are. Because the thing is, sometimes you're thinking I'm anxious. By the time you're thinking that word. There's a lot of lost time, especially if you're like going into a meeting and you want to say something. So understanding for example, I tell my clients, let's say you're anxious about speaking up in a meeting, understanding what is happening in your body in that moment and just taking a few breaths through it makes the connection so much faster and gives you the opportunity to maybe half the time to speak up in that meeting. Or maybe the other way around where like you're speaking too much and you want to give other people space of like pushing your body back, back and kind of letting other people be and trying to understand the dynamics there and understand what is it like? What does it feel like what is happening inside of us? So we can react quicker, or maybe understand ourselves at a higher level, just because emotions tend not to be in our head. And I love what you said, you said, like, take a break, or breathe, all of these things are very bodily based things. It's all happening inside of us, like, take that breath or like go for that walk just to give our entire organism just a minute.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and I'm really glad you said that too. Because I think you know, our thoughts are just ways of explaining to ourselves what's going on in our body. And your I love that you call out that by the time it gets to our thought, there's been time passing that you know, it time where things may be getting more activated, right, your nervous system is just ratcheting up and you lose that, that opportunity to intervene and start to bring things back to a more neutral place. So do you thoughts on for people who are listening who maybe have never done anything related to what we're talking about? Is their first step? Or, you know, I know it's far more complicated than that. But how do you get to a place of I've been in reactive mode for so long, I don't even know what it feels like to listen to my body?
Zeina Habib
Yeah, so I think the hardest part working with new clients is there's no awareness, which is normal because they haven't done that before, of what sensations are like, I would ask someone, what does it feel like to be anxious? And they're like, I just know, or, you know, like, there isn't an expression to what it's like in the body. And I would say the first thing for anyone to start, it's just, just do bodily scanning, like, you know, wake up in the morning and be like, hey, what's my body? Like? Like, is there something that's more tense is there like an energy somewhere, using those words like trying to find words that aren't emotion, but sensation, which is like tingly, tension, cold, hot, and observe how it changes throughout the day? If something happens, just simply be like, Oh, what is going on? Like growing that habit of understanding what is going on in our body, just to kind of like, get into it. Without putting the pressure of like, I have to figure out every emotion on its own. But just growing the sensation habit on its own, like, what changes what happens? And what does it mean for me because I feel it's a challenge, which I understand for people who haven't done something like that before, or don't have an experience with it. So I say just do that.
Kim Meninger
I think that's a great, I love that you're separating out figuring out what the emotions are from just, this is just what's happening right now. Right? Like, this is what I'm sensing. And then you can start to figure out what the patterns and like, how those are, at least the way I think about it is, if I tend to feel this particular pattern of sensations in these kinds of situations, right, like, that tells me something, and maybe there's a higher level of strategizing that I can do around that. But to get, to get to that point, you have to start where you're talking about right with people who are probably not even paying any attention to this at all.
Zeina Habib
Yeah, 100%. And they understand, you know, but we never really, it's not a very common practice or something that, you know, you don't grow up learning about that. You hear about emotions, but not much about sensations. And to be honest, there, it's not universal, but there are certain body sensation that become associated with emotions. But I try not to do that with my clients just not to feel like I'm trying to categorize things. But there are certain activations like the fear activation, which kind of elevates the energy and the other activation is kind of lowered the energy in the body. Lower isn't like, you know, your heart rate is higher when your energy is high. And unlike lower heart rate, you feel yourself more falling down posture going forward. So there are some connections, generally with most people I've talked with, but I let people do their own, you know, relations so that they feel like they have power over it.
Kim Meninger
I love that. I think that's a really great way to think about it. And I wonder, too, because it seems to me that one of the greatest challenges to everything that we're talking about is time, and people think I don't have time for that, right? I'm so busy. My mind is in a million other places, like how do you think about translating some of what we're talking about into a sustainable process for busy people? How much time are we talking about?
Zeina Habib
So this is one of the things that I learned as I got more clients is I always aim for very small actions over sustained time. I always tell my client, what do you do in the morning like if someone drinks coffee or has a meditation practice? I'm like, add one minute to it and do this practice. So, every day, every day, this is not, I'm not taking time away, like one minute a day, as you're doing something else, not the end of the world. But when it comes to like, hey, let's do 15 minutes of this breathing, like, no one's gonna like it. Or I say like, Hey, before meeting, like, do that one minute practice. And then before you when you feel like, you know you're about, you want to speak up in a meeting, and you're not do it again. And when they start to notice, oh, I was able to speak up, I was able to do it, it helps a lot. And I always tell them, like, let's say someone is goal is to end up speaking up more in meetings, I tell them in like two weeks before we meet again, do it once or do it twice. Smaller actions more sustained help a lot. It takes off the pressure, it makes the goal very reachable. It's a challenge that isn't outside of people's comfort zone. So I think this is one thing like smaller Marcus consistent things works a lot for busy people. And for anyone, honestly, to just not feel like they're taking a huge leap. That is very queasy. And it feels doable.
Kim Meninger
Yes. I love that. You're absolutely right. Because if it feels too big, then it also feels scary and on reachable. You know, it's like, Oh, I could never do that. So I love tying it to something that you're already doing to like your morning coffee, or whatever your sort of specific rituals are? And can we talk a little bit more about the speaking up piece? Because I think that is something that challenges so many people who are listening, is that, just that hesitation and that, you know, fear of what will people think? And so can you share a little bit more about your strategy for getting to that place where I can? Maybe I'm maybe I'm not fully confident yet, but I'm willing to take the risks.
Zeina Habib
Yeah, of course. So the way I work with my client on that is you explore the thoughts like what is happening, what is really happening for you, that is pushing you not to speak up is it that you think you know, they're gonna think I'm stupid, a lot of people come up with these things, I'm going to share what I've heard, like they're gonna think I'm whatever I say is going to be stupid, it's not going to add any value to anyone in this meeting, I'm going to interrupt the flow of the meeting, a lot of like, kind of these thoughts are from this place. And from a sensation point of view, a lot of people say they feel like, everything closes up here, and huge tension, high energy, where it's like I want to run away, I don't want to be sitting here in this meeting. So these are kind of a lot of the sensations and thoughts I've heard, which kind of builds up to the anxiety itself, what I usually tell my clients to take a second one, like to just feel all of these things and take four or five deep breaths. And I usually say long exhales because I mean, scientifically speaking when you're taking long exhales, you're reaching more the relaxed part of your nervous system, the front part, which helps social interactions. So very long exhales through the mouth, who knows, even that works, and it gives your body a sense of relaxation, just takes out that high energy. And then once you feel that, you know, start speaking or say whatever it is you want to stay. And it's not about, as I said, like doing it in every meeting, it's about saying, my goal is to speak up in one meeting, and those two weeks. So it becomes like the goal is not what happens after the speaking up doesn't matter what happens after nothing matters. What happens is I actually did the action. And I'm checking, I'm feeling I am confident because I did that one thing. So the confidence comes from achieving something that is not linked to people's reaction that it isn't linked out to something outside of you. It's linked to you making the effort to do the breathing to understand your body and then say those words, and it sounds achievable. And that by itself starts help you to grow your confidence. Once you do you know those small things over and over again, you're like, Oh, I get it. I can do this.
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. And I think that, you know, as somebody who has lived with anxiety for a long time, my imagination is always far worse than reality. And so you're telling yourself all these stories, like you said, everyone's gonna think that I'm stupid, and, you know, all these horrible things are gonna happen. And then when you do it, and you realize that that doesn't happen. it dilutes the power of that fear to you know, it's almost like yeah, you just you get become desensitized to it in a way because you are telling me or you're showing your brain Oh, that's not as dangerous as I thought it was.
Zeina Habib
And one thing I use if someone is an athlete or a dancer or like in any actually any hobbies that they have, I tell them was the first time you went on court or you performed or you created something the same as today because practice is very easy to see in hobbies, it is not as easy to see and things like that. So the idea that if you practice enough, you can, you know, win and those things shouldn't be any different from any other area in your life.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I love that, because that is definitely very real. And people's minds have no, of course not. Of course, I'm far better today than I was when I first learned how to do whatever it is that, that I do. And it also helps with just giving people a reality check when it comes to perfection. Because so often, we're our own harshest critics in the … I step into a new job on day one, and we expect I have to already have mastered this as opposed to, I was not, you know, when I was starting my last job, I was in the same place, we often compare ourselves to, you know, our starting point, to our ending point in the previous role, as opposed to looking. You know, through the lens of every time I do something for the first time, it's scary and different and uncomfortable.
Zeina Habib
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it is true. We do that sometimes we're compared to like, hey, how I was yesterday, even though yesterday, I had been like a, you know, a master at whatever I was doing.
Kim Meninger
That's right. And I think so, you know, just thinking about what you're saying of keeping track or noticing your bodily sensations a little bit more to one of the things that I think about is, if you are in a particularly rough spot, for some reason, right? Like, let's imagine that this particular setting is very intimidating to you, maybe that's not the best place to practice. And the more aware you are of that, the more you know, just the whole idea of baby steps to if this is something that you haven't done before, is to think about, it doesn't have to be the most extreme setting to try out something new. It's like what's a relatively safe space with something that's a little bit of a stretch outside of your comfort zone so that you are pacing yourself?
Zeina Habib
I mean, don't start this with a you know, meeting with the CEO, maybe start it with a meeting with your own team.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. Yeah. I think that's a really helpful. Oh my gosh, this has been such a fun conversation Zeina. Thank you so much for having it with me. Any final thoughts? And then of course, I want to make sure that people know where to find you if they want more of you.
Zeina Habib
Yeah, of course. So one thing I always you know, like to end my conversation with is practice, practice, practice, practice will never make perfect, but it will make better always think about that and everything you're doing in your life from confidence building to you know, your next marathon running, whatever it is, this is kind of the best thing to do. Just keep practicing and believe eventually, you'll make it. I think that's the biggest thing. They can find me on LinkedIn on there. My name's Zeina Habib, which will probably be shared once the episode is shared. And I do have a website also Voice Within and I do have an Instagram page Zeina Habib Coaching. I'll share my handle so people can find me, and I am looking forward to hear more from you. And I really, really enjoyed our conversation today was so natural and so much fun.
Kim Meninger
Oh, thank you so much Zeina and I'll make sure that all those links are in the show notes as well for anybody who is interested and just thank you again for having this conversation with me.
Zeina Habib
Thank you.