Rethinking High Performance

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we dive into the psychology behind high performance with developmental theorist Max Stephens. Max’s work is rooted in a bold premise: the greatest chokehold on any business or career isn’t the market or the competition, it’s our own personal psychology. And until we understand and address that, we’ll continue to get in our own way.

Together we explore the hidden forces that shape high performers, from early emotional wounds that fuel relentless ambition to the dysfunctional patterns that drive success but undermine fulfillment. Max shares why so many achievers feel an insatiable need to “get there” yet never arrive, and how shifting from self-focused achievement to contribution-focused growth changes everything.

We also examine the deeper purpose of personal development as self-transcendence, how expanding our “circles of concern” leads to more meaningful leadership and why forgiveness, mortality awareness and radical honesty are essential starting points for transformation. Finally, Max offers powerful insights into how we can break free from cultural narratives, reorient our goals around contribution and create ripple effects of positive change in the people and systems around us.

About My Guest

Max Stephens is a personal development coach, speaker, philosopher and author of What the F*ck Do You Really Want? who works with executives, entrepreneurs, and high performers who have achieved traditional success but still feel something is missing. Through a sharp, no-BS approach, he dismantles outdated success narratives, helping individuals discover their authentic contribution—the key to unlocking their deepest potential. Blending philosophy, psychology, and real-world application, Max’s work isn’t about abstract theory; it’s about guiding people to a tangible, measurable way of living at their highest level. His book and coaching provide a roadmap for those ready to move beyond materialism and into a life of true meaning and significance.

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Website: MaxStephensCoaching.com

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Max. It's great to have you here today. I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Max Stephens

Yeah, sure. Kim, so my work, I'm a developmental theorist, so my work is founded on the view that the chokehold of any business is always the owner's personal psychology, and so rather than working with them on the business per se, although some of the conversations invariably will surface around those things, is that I work with them on them, so every business owner who or high performer who works with me is after better outcomes in their life, whether that's in their business relationship, health, finances, etc, outcomes in our lives are driven by our behavior. So the behavior that we choose to engage in, our behavior is driven by our decisions, as in what I decide to do, our decisions are driven by our thinking. That drives our decisions, and then our thinking is driven by our worldview. And so the challenge, certainly, as I see it, for most high performers or most business owners at the least, is that they misdiagnose their own personal development problems as business problems, and so my work sort of sits at the intersection of those two things.

Kim Meninger

This is fascinating to me, because I I always wanted to be a therapist. That was what I grew up wanting to be. I ended up in the corporate world, and I've been doing coaching, but that is one of the things that I think about a lot. I'm not I am not trained to address those issues, but I am keenly aware of exactly what you describing, and I often joke that we think that when we're in the workplace, we're interacting with each other at a rational level, but oftentimes we're interacting with each other's triggered selves and a lot of the unfinished business, right that we carry with us. So can you say more about I just want to. I want to dive into your brain and learn more about what they bring to you how comfortable they are talking about these things. Because I know also sometimes business owners are a little reluctant, maybe to get into some of the stuff that we're talking about. Maybe it feels, in some cases, like, well, that's not the quantifiable stuff, or that's going to distract me from the business side. So I'm curious who comes to you and why?

Max Stephens

Oh, yeah. So whether that's CEOs, athletes, high performers of various kinds, artists, even, yeah, like, uh, it's, it's basically like people, high performers who are wanting to do better, and how comfortable are they? I think, I think like demonstrating that link that I just shared with you can be a very powerful way to enter into those conversations, because it allows them to grasp that sort of linear chain of causation. I think the other thing that I also take them through Kim, you know, is, particularly if they're a little bit more sort of skeptical, is, let's say I'm dealing with a CEO. One of the things I'll be saying to them is, you know, when you look at your leadership team or people in your organization, can you see very, very clearly that people are their own worst problem. They get in their own way. In some way, they self-sabotage. In some way, they trip themselves up. In some way, they're too hard on themselves. In some way, they are their own worst problem. And the business owner will go, oh, yeah, definitely, I can see that easily. And I'll say, right. And then when we look back throughout human history, and we see all of the crazy things that we've done to each other, all in the name of, you know, believing that we were doing good, you know. Can, can you see that we seem to have a propensity to self-deceive, you know, and, and get in our own way? Oh, yeah, definitely. I can see that. I say, right? And even if we bring this closer to home. So we look at your spouse, your children, your parents. Can you see that they get in their own way, in some way, and they'll go, oh, yeah, definitely. And I'll say, right, but not you. They'll say, right. So how are you the only person who's transparent to themselves, you know? So the notice, like from a first-person perspective, when I look out at the world, I can see that people are their own worst problem, and you probably can too, right? Your listeners probably can too. But notice, from my position, when I look out of the world, it doesn't look like I'm my worst problem. It looks like the world is my problem in some way. Yeah, so. But notice when I go and ask these, when I go and ask anybody out in the world, what's your worst problem? People don't say themselves. They say the world, just like I do. So what are the chances that I get in my own way, just like they're getting in their own way and I can't see it, just like they can't see it. And so that then provides some sort of entry point into those conversations, which allows a greater degree of openness in the, in the high performer.

Kim Meninger

That's a really good way I could see the sort of trap. Do you find that there are specific areas in which they get, in their own way, that you tend to focus on is, are there themes that recur?

Max Stephens

Yeah, definitely. So the challenge for the archetype of the high performer is that the high performer’s journey is normally born of pain. It's born of pain or some sort of feeling of some sort of sense of inadequacy that they've been made to feel quite, you know, sort of earlier in their lives. And the challenge is that they are essentially seeking an external outcome to allay or heal that sort of internal pain point that they experienced in their lives. And this is like the classic case of the insatiable high performer who can never be happy in spite of what they achieve. It's like, Well, why is it exactly that they can never be happy? Well, they can never be happy for exactly what I said. The problem is, what happens is that they have this like emotional fracture, like earlier in their lives, when, basically, high performance, or the desire to achieve becomes a compensatory strategy. It becomes a strategy to compensate for that emotional pain that they're in. And so it's often the case that the thing that is driving their success is dysfunctional. And so what that ends up leading to is, well, fundamentally, they're under the presupposition that if I can just get here, if I can just achieve this thing, whatever this thing is, promotion, increase revenue in the business, etc, etc, then I'll be able to accept myself. I'll be all right. But the thing that they often don't understand is it's not even, it's not even the increased revenue or the or the achievement, it's none of that that they're after. What they're actually after is the end of that feeling that they have about themselves. And so what happens is they go on this chase, like to achieve whatever this thing is, let's say it's increased revenue in the business then. Then when they achieve that, they experience a temporary allaying, or a temporary they experience temporary solace from that feeling of inadequacy. And they go, Oh, that's nice, right? But very, very quickly, what happens is that feeling begins to reconvene back on itself. It begins to reorganize itself, and they can feel it again, and they misunderstand or misappropriate that feeling returning as Ah, but that's just because I haven't achieved this yet, and so and they get caught on this, in this, like, infinite regress, yeah, like, I have one client of mine, he comes to mind, who I've just started working with, runs a $350 million business. And I said, like, what's the goal? And he said, Oh, we have to get to half a billion in two years time. You know, like, it's like, this endless game that they're caught in. But, you know, the thing he doesn't realize as well is, like the again, he's not after the revenue, he's after the end of that feeling. And so the challenge becomes, well, the recurring theme, I should say, is that the thing that is driving that success is often dysfunctional, and so that's sort of where my work starts with them.

Kim Meninger

So I want to ask a question, because I'm sure there are people listening who are wondering this as well. You talked about this in terms of high performers. Is there such a thing as a healthy high performer, like, can you be driven without wanting to allay, you know, an unmet need, or from the past?

Max Stephens

Yes. I mean, in my experience, they're very rare, but yep, so like one of the So, okay, great, great question. So look, the distinction between like healthy expressions of high performance behavior and less healthy expressions of high performance behavior fundamentally comes down to, at least in my mind, what we call our circles of concern. So when we look all throughout like, one of the things I have been really shocked at Kim is whenever I have asked coaches, personal development practitioners, you know, just people in our space, and I say, what is the actual point of personal development? Like, what are we actually doing when we're developing ourselves, and what is it that we're developing ourselves into? And I've been shocked that so many people in our space essentially say, oh, you know, just like, set and achieve goals and being a winner and stuff like that. Like they have no sense of what the actual point of personal development is. So personal development fundamentally began as philosophy, like philosophy is like the original sort of personal development back in the sort of ancient Greek sort of period where people like Aristotle and Plato and etc, who are concerned with like, right living, what is the right way for us to live, then we had like Marcus Aurelius. He had stoicism, like they have all these, like sub schools of, basically epistemology, like how human beings make sense of the world. So philosophy, like philosophy, and whether that's whether that also encompasses even theology and religion, and all the way through to developmental psychology, all. All point to the same truth or the same axiom, which is that the purpose of personal development is what's referred to as self-transcendence, right? Which is so if we look at philosophy, they'll talk about self-transcendence. We took it. If we talk about it at a religious or theological level, they'll talk about like becoming one with God, or you know, like, you know, transcending the devil and all that sort of stuff. And then when we talk about developmental psychology, we're basically speaking about expanding our circle of concern. So at lower levels of development, basically, put very, more simple, put very, very simply, we're more selfish. We're more concerned with, like, me, me, me, and what's best for me at higher circles of concern. What happens is that circle of concern expands to me and my family and me, my family, my friends, my friends, my community, my community, my country, all countries, all people within all countries, all cultures, all animals, all environment and the cosmos, etc. And so like, you can tell, like one of the things I say to clients all the time is like, you can tell how much you are growing essentially, by how selfless you are becoming. If you are still like, caught up. Like, a big problem, certainly, as I see it in Western culture, is personal development has become like, really weaponized. And so what happens is that we have a lot of people who are still as selfish as ever, just now armed with like personal development distinctions, you know, around like limiting beliefs, or, you know, just, just nonsense and so and so. Back to the healthier, unhealthy expressions of high performance, like, less healthy expressions of high performance is, like, I am trying to allay a feeling of pain that I am in through the acquisition of achievement. More healthy expression of high performance is, I'm okay as I am. Yeah, my work is now about trying to make the world better. So it's a more like contribution focused, you know, like, the classic distinction in businesses, there's like, missionaries and mercenaries. So missionaries are like, I am on a mission to make the world better. The business is a means to help me achieve that mission. Versus a mercenary I am at I am in this for me, yeah, and there are certain things that I want, and the business is there for me to help me achieve what I want for me and so like, that's a very, very easy distinction, because the question becomes invariably, well, why do you need all those things? Or why do you want all those things? And a big part of the reason why they want all those things is because life is not all right as it is, but if I can achieve all those things, then I then I can accept myself, which was sort of that hedonic treadmill idea that I was speaking about

Kim Meninger

before, so that makes a lot of sense to me. One thing that comes up for me as I think about this is that you've got a lot of these high performers concentrated in systems, right? And when you think about treating one of them, do you have to do? They have to remove themselves from that environment? How do they continue? How do they sort of heal and stay an environment, in an environment that may perpetuate a lot of those expectations or behaviors?

Max Stephens

Definitely like, it's a it's often like quite a breakthrough session. You know, when they eventually turn to me and go, Well, why am I doing any of this then? You know, like, and I said, That's a great question. Well, how are you doing any of this then? And so, you know, the world, in some ways, is a mirror for our internal experience, you know that? And so, one of the things I talk about a lot with, like, a huge problem that I have with sort of goals-based coaching, or, like, goals-based, you know, but I'll be your accountability buddy. Sort of coaching is so if, if, if I work with somebody over a year, right, and we set goals a year out and say, like, okay, these are our big targets that we're working towards by the time we get there, if we've both really done our jobs and been a good team, you're actually not the same person when you arrive as the person who set those goals in the first place. And so one of the one of the sort of hallmarks that I sort of listen for, is when we have to start readjusting the program, like, that's when I know that the work is really working, because it speaks to the idea that their vantage point hasn't changed. I was, I was working with a rather disagreeable like, we get along really well. So, you know, for anyone who gets offended at what I say, you know, please understand that it was said in in good faith, in good context, you know. But he was sort of saying, you know, well, Max, I go through life with no regrets. And I said, Well, you're an idiot, you know, because it speak, it speaks to the idea that your vantage point hasn't changed, like the need to forgive myself is actually a. Symptom that I have grown like, when I look back even at who I was a year ago or two years ago or five years ago, and I go, like, Oh God, I don't know what I was thinking there, you know, like, maybe I should go and say, sorry for those things. Like, that's a good thing. Like, that's actually a symptom that my vantage point has changed. If I look back and go, Yeah, do it all the same, it's like, well, your vantage point hasn't changed or so, yeah, right. So yes, invariably, those questions do surface. So there's normally, like, one of two things that happens. Normally, they either change their environment or they reorient the mission or the meaning that they have that's associated with what they're currently doing,

Kim Meninger

so they can reorient themselves to similar work and still and have a healthier relationship with it.

Max Stephens

Yeah, yeah. They can. Like, yeah, they can. So it normally just comes down to reorienting myself in terms of what I can contribute rather than what I can get for me. So they start to spend more time with their team. They start to spend more time with their clients. You know, things like that, it becomes less about well, fundamentally, it just becomes less about themselves.

Kim Meninger

For people listening and I sort of have this, I'm at a crossroads with which path to go down in my questioning right now, I'm thinking about people who are probably seeing themselves in what we're talking about. And I'm wondering, is there step one here?

Max Stephens

Yeah, definitely. So one of the things, one of the things I talk a little bit about in my book is that there's certain, there's certain. Have I explained this? Okay, so like, when we're starting to speak about the conversation of, like, What is my purpose? Why am I here? What is a meaningful life to me? There's like, epistemic or, and by epistemic, I just mean like, how we make sense of the world. There's, there's work to be done in terms of putting our feet on really solid ground to take steps towards working on ourselves. And so the first, the first place I always start with clients, is notice that a lot of your desires are what are referred to as memetic, which basically means that we inherit them. We inherit them from our culture. We inherit them from our family. We inherit them from emotional pain points. So we're sort of living in reaction to like the human animal is a communal creature. So we live like in response to our tribe and our environment. And so there's three, sort of like easier steps, yeah, that people can go through, well, easy in name, at least simple is a better word than easy. And the first, the first is forgiveness. So the principle of forgiveness, in my mind is that what it allows us to do when we go through all of the people that we feel that we have wronged and who have wronged us, is what ends up happening. Like, I can't tell you how many business owners I have worked with, and they'll come to me in the first session, and they'll say, right? And I'll say, Okay, what's the goal? Why are we here? And they'll say, to double the size of the revenue in the company. And I'll go, Okay, why do you want that? Like, you could have asked me for anything like, why that? And they'll say something like so I can prove to all those people who said I couldn't do it that I can. And I'll say, well, don't you think it's a better idea and a better use of our time, if you just forgive those people like, it's a it's a lot of effort, you know, to it's a lot of effort to, you know, prove people wrong who probably don't even think about you anymore, who probably just said this in an offhanded way, you know? So like, like, and it's not just like, it's a very stark example, right? But there are so many experiences within our lives that we are essentially living just in reaction to like. I'm trying to prove that I'm worthy of my love to my dad. I'm trying to prove whatever like and so and so. Like forgiveness is a really, really good place to start. The second place to start, the second really, really good place to start is just an awareness of my own mortality. So just notice that, like, we're not here forever. We're here for a very, very, very short while, and for some of us, we're already a third, if not half, if not two thirds of the way through our lives, you know. So the idea that, in my mind, it's, it's very, very helpful to reflect on that, because it really disabuses me of the idea of a few things. Number one is that I'm important and I'm not. Number two is that I, in the grand scheme of things, I matter and I don't. And then, and then number three is that there is a safe road in life, and there's not because the safe road, safe road and the unsafe road lead to the same place. So, you know, we might as well have an epic adventure while we're here. And so, so that is a really, really helpful distinction as well. So it's like, let me forgive, let me forgive and get free of my past. Let me be aware that I'm not here forever, and then the third and then the third piece is around like, in my mind, that's what I call radical honesty, which is the idea like, okay, if I'm going to build a life that's mine and not memetic and not inherited, then best I be really, really honest with whose voice is that when I say that I want these things. So if I say, you know, I want a big house, or I want a fancy car, or I want this, or I want that, it's like, is that you talking? Or is that like your culture talking? You know, do you actually want that? And so those three sort of axioms are a good place to start from personal development perspective, before we get into the purpose conversation and what you actually want to be doing.

Kim Meninger

I have a maybe seemingly cynical question for you, like, is our…

Max Stephens

our cynical is good?

Kim Meninger

Is our is our culture built for this kind of sort of work? I feel like it takes a lot of self-discipline and a lot of sort of, I don't know what the word is, willpower, to, to overcome so many of the external variables that [yeah] us locked in this state that you're describing.

Max Stephens

Yeah, sure. So one of the, one of the things that is, one of the things in my mind that becomes very, very clear is that human beings are animals, right? And we have like, intrinsic human needs. This is a big problem, certainly within our culture, as I see it. Kim is that we have this, like pride in our individualism, which is that we're all just individuals, man, and you know, things that work for you may not work for me, and things that work for me may not work for you. And that's all nonsense. Like, it's complete nonsense. If you take any other species, you take dogs, for example, yeah, like dogs have inherent dog needs. Dogs can have different personalities, even different preferences to some degree, but they're all still dogs. And then the question becomes like, Okay, well, what do dogs need? And it's like, walks, food, play, affection, right? You deny any dog these needs, yeah. And dogs suffer, yeah. Like, and why do they need those things? Based on their evolutionary history? And so then the question becomes like, Okay, well, what is the evolutionary history of humans? And what do humans need? And fundamentally, when we look at our evolutionary history, anywhere from 10s to hundreds of 1000s of years, right, the beginning of human history is much debated, but even if we just say on the shorter side, so 10s of 1000s, so for 10s of 1000s of years, yeah, our ancestors lived in tribes in the forest, and your quote, unquote, success measure obviously wasn't your bank account. It wasn't even what you could get for you. It was the contribution that you made to that tribe. Did you go and get the berries? Did you go and catch the fish? Did you go and hunt that animal? And if you did, you could bring back your spoils and you'd be celebrated within your tribe. Yeah. The problem is that that was all well and good. And then we had the as these tribes grew bigger and bigger, they started to encroach from one another's territory. We had tribal warfare. And then when we transcended, when we transcended that sort of level of development, then we had the arising of larger communities. Yeah, what we call like city states, yeah, like basic, real basic, like communities and trade was largely done on the basis of utility. So, like, you have some sheepskin, I have some eggs. I want the sheepskin. You want the eggs. Why don't we swap? Yeah, so, like, it was done on the basis of survival and utility. Again, that was all well and fine, essentially, until the Industrial Revolution, and the Industrial Revolution basically produced a mass surplus of goods. Yeah, so we had more goods than we knew what to do with. And so then the then, like the powers that be, had a very interesting question, which was like, hmm, we've got everyone's survival needs met. How do we start convincing people to buy more than what they actually need? And so began the rise of advertising. And so now in 2025, like, certainly in Western countries, like trade is no longer done on the basis of utility. Trade is now done on the basis of identity. So in other words, what does it mean? We no longer buy things for the purpose of utility. We buy things for the purpose for to we buy things for what it means about me to own it. So like for let's take an example, like a Gucci scarf, right? A luxury item like a Gucci scarf or a Louis Vuitton scarf, right? When I buy that scarf, I'm not buying the fabric. I'm buying the story of what it means about me to own that thing, which is that I'm sophisticated, I am elegant, I am successful, I am whatever, right, insert whatever the story is. The problem is, is that that scarf went sorry, that scarf says those things only, until next year's scarf is released. Yes. And then what happens is the same scarf that I am wearing now no longer. Says elegant, sophistication or success. It now says that I'm falling behind, but it's the same scarf. And so the story that we're after is not fixed to the item. It leaps from item to item, you see. And so we're off on this we're off on this chase like and this is consumerist culture in a nutshell. We're off on this chase, where we're chasing a story rather than chasing anything on the basis of utility anymore, like there's nothing, there's nothing that is more warm about that scarf. There's nothing that is inherently better, quote, unquote, or more useful about that scarf. It's a story that I'm after, right? And so, okay, so why is this a problem? Well, fundamentally, what has happened over the course of like, and it's it hasn't been very long. It's only the last like, 150 years is even less 120 years is we have now curated environments that now no longer match our evolutionary wiring. Like, there's literally, like, there's literally a part of our brains called the anterior cingulate cortex, which is responsible for, like, dopamine and serotonin and the feel good feels. Yeah. And that part of the brain gets stimulated the most when we do something good for somebody else, like, and that's not a mistake. That's not like, woo, woo, new age. That's like, your evolutionary survival mechanism of the brain, which is like, if I contribute to the tribe, my survival chances go up, because then the tribe is stronger and we're collectively better together. But what's happened is like, now, we're now living in environments that are out of sync with that, so we're becoming more and more fractionated and more and more isolated from one another, and our tribe has, has been fractured down in so many and divided in so many, so many different ways. It's getting divided by gender, it's getting divided by race, it's getting divided by creed. It's getting divided by religion. It's getting divided by, you know, socioeconomic status. It's getting divided by so many, it's so many different ways, right? And so the, this is the problem, and this, in my view, is why we have the mental health crisis. It's why we have the crisis of meaning. It's why we have the loneliness epidemic, because we are fundamentally living out of sync with our own evolutionary wiring. It would be like dogs living in a way, like organizing their dog society, you know, organizing their pack, you know, in a way where they don't have walks, food, play and affection anymore. And it's like, and then they start to get emotionally, you know, and almost psychologically sick. And we go like, Oh, well, how come that's happening? It's like, Well, it's obvious why that's happening. It's like, you're not living in accordance with what you are. And this is, this is the thing in, certainly in our culture, as I listen to that's a big problem, is the whole like, well, we're all just individuals. Man is not true. Like, that's, it's nonsense. It's just like, it's a like, it's a cultural narrative, you know?

Kim Meninger

It's so what you're saying feels so real and it's so frustrating because it's, it feels so, excuse me, difficult to, to navigate it in a more healthy and functional way. But obviously it's worth it, right? I mean, what do you see in the people that you work with? You see dramatic changes?

Max Stephens

Yep, yep, definitely, definitely, like, definitely. Yeah, yeah, I would say that they are. They found happiness for whatever that's worth.

Kim Meninger

Yeah. And I mean, I think that I'm generally somebody who tries to be very optimistic and, and I believe that it's worth it to take control of what you can control, right? We can't, we can't control the society that we live in, but we can control how we respond to it, and how we, you know, navigate it. And so it sounds like that's what you're encouraging to us to think about too is, I mean, we can't take off the weight of the world, but we can't. We can sort of address our own experience.

Max Stephens

Yeah, well, one of the, one of the ideas which is useful to think about is the idea of what's called an emotional contagion. So, so there's, like a famous study at Harvard. People can look this up. They can fact check me here is we're basically they were looking at how our emotions ripple throughout our community. And so the idea is that an easier way to think about it is ripples, rather than an emotional contagion, which is that our actions and now, basically, the transfer of our emotional state ripples three degrees of separation away from us. So for example, let's say I get off this call today with you, Kim, this podcast recording with you, I say, Wow, Kim was just great. Like, what a great, nourishing, awesome conversation. Conversation, and it picks up my spirits. The next person that I deal with feels that whoever that is, and that person then hands it on to somebody else. So if anyone who's listening has seen the movie, pay it forward. You know, it's like, it's a good example of this, right? And so the idea is, it normally ripples about three degrees of separation. So you contribute to make him, I give it to somebody else, and they give it to somebody else. And normally it's normally, it sort of dilutes itself by that stage, right? So I work with, you know, something in the neighborhood of 35 high performers each week, right? But I know that I work with at least 90, 90, people every week, because I know that my actions will ripple out, outwards, you know, through them. And so you're a lot more powerful than you realize. You know, if you're, if you speak with 50 people a day that's over, it's over 150 people that you're having an impact on positive or otherwise. And so that can be a useful way to think about it, in terms of what your, you know, responsibility to the expansion of consciousness is, if you like.

Kim Meninger

Yeah. And I think even influence on the environment around you too, which is really helpful, because I think about it in the context of workplaces, where, you know, there, there's often this perception, which is, is, you know, true to some extent, that a lot of culture is driven from the top, but there are a lot of subcultures too. And I think leaders can sort of influence their own subcultures by doing exactly what you're just describing and deciding how they want to show up, and that, in turn, affects the people around them. Agreed, yeah, oh, goodness, Max. This is so fascinating. I truly could stay here all day, but I know you wrote a book, and I know you do this work, so I would love to invite you to share how people can stay in touch with you or continue to follow your work, find your book.

Max Stephens

Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. Like so they're welcome to go to Max Stephens Coaching dot com, so Stephens spelt with a “P-H”, yeah, so they, they want to have a chat with me, they're welcome to find me there.

Kim Meninger

Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure the links in are in the show notes. And thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

Max Stephens

Pleasure. Thank you too.