In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about perfectionism. Many of us are high achievers who take great pride in our work and want that work to be as high quality as possible. But there is a significant difference between aiming for excellence and trying to be perfect. My guest this week, Emily Sander, a former C-suite executive and now leadership coach, shares her journey with perfectionism and how it kept her from being the person and the leader she wanted to be. We also talk about strategies you can use to better manage perfectionism.
About My Guest
Emily Sander is a C-Suite Executive turned Leadership Coach. She is the founder of Next Level Coaching. As an ICF-Certified Coach, she helps business professionals step into effective leadership with one-on-one coaching. She’s written two books: - "Hacking Executive Leadership" and - "An Insider’s Perspective on the Chief of Staff."
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Connect with Emily:
Website: www.nextlevel.coach
An Insider's Perspective on the Chief of Staff: https://amzn.to/3O3pgFk
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Emily, I'm so excited to chat with you today. And I'd love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Emily Sander
Yes. Thank you so much, Kim. I was looking forward to this conversation. So thank you for having me on. Yeah. So quick intro, I am a former Chief of Staff turned executive leadership coach. So I had a whole big corporate career and that spanned from places like Microsoft, and Amazon. Fun fact, I was a tester for the original Kindle device at Amazon. That's my, that's my claim to fame there. And then I worked for a series of small to medium technology businesses, and that's where I lead client-facing teams and, and cut my teeth into leadership. And then several years ago, I moved over to my coaching practice full-time. And so now coach business professionals and business leaders. But on top of that career trajectory, I would also tell you, that I am a recovering perfectionist. And I was often I was almost always the youngest and or least experienced in my group. So in any team or any certainly leadership team I was on, I was always, you know, the youngest, sometimes I was the only woman as well. And so if you stack all those things together, it's, it's can be pretty intimidating. And so I certainly certainly had to wrestle with the imposter syndrome on I am literally decades younger than anyone at this table. And everyone seemed so professional, and they knew what they were doing and all these things. I had a healthy streak of perfectionism. And I'm also an overthinker. So you stack all those things together, and they compound. And it was it was definitely a struggle. But I'm glad to say that through some, some reflection and pretty aggressive self-improvement. I'm I'm doing world's better with that. And I actually coach people on, on those types of topics a day. So that's my story in a nutshell.
Kim Meninger
Thank you for sharing that. And those factors that you mentioned that all compound that's like a perfect recipe for impostor syndrome.
Emily Sander
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Kim Meninger
And I'm curious about how you made the leap to coaching. Was there a particular event or moment when you thought, I don't want to do this anymore? Or were you drawn to coaching for some reason? Like, how did you make that leap?
Emily Sander
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I've, I was coaching before I knew what a coach was. So at any role I had, and not necessarily leadership roles, either just any role I had, I would be coaching, my peers, or my team members, or even sometimes my boss. And so I had the, that coach approach, or those coaching elements, always, always in whatever I was doing. And then once I figured out Oh, my gosh, coaching is like a fake, you can go do that as a professional like, here we go sign me up, what do I have to do? And so of course, I went to get certified and went through all the training, but it's just something someone the other day was saying, it's like you were built to be a coach. And I was like, oh, that's fitting. I just, it's, it's just, it's just who I was anyway, and so then I found kind of the label in the, in the framework or container for it.
Kim Meninger
I love that way of describing it. I would think I think of myself very similarly, I actually see a lot of myself in your story, too, because I grew up in the high-tech industry. But very early on in my career. And like you I was often decades younger, often the only woman in the room often questioning how did I get here, everyone else is much smarter and more experienced, and then to have that sort of built-in? Coaching. Approach, right? And I had the same thoughts like, Oh, this is a thing. Totally. I can remember when I first started reflecting on you know, what's not working about my career right now, what do I what do I wish I were doing? I remember thinking like, Gosh, I really wish I could be paid to, to offer support, guidance and, and then when someone said coaching, like, that’s it?
Emily Sander
Yes, it's funny, because I literally was sitting, sitting there going, what are my favorite parts of all of these corporate careers, all these different roles I've held, and it was the coaching aspects, right? Like the guiding mentoring coaching aspects. And I thought, You know what, Emily, if you can wake up and do nothing but your favorite part of the day, all day long, you'll never worked a day in your life, right? So like, that whole thing. And I was like, put this stuff together. Um, here we go.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. And can we talk a little bit about your perfectionism because perfectionism is such an epidemic, I think especially across many women. How did it show up for you? And what were some of the downsides of it like? Because I think too often we don't treat perfection. Isn't with the seriousness that it deserves. I think we joke about it, we kind of wear it as a badge of honor sometimes, but perfectionism is really serious. And it can be very disruptive. And so I'm curious how it showed up for you, and how you think about your relationship to it now that you're a recovering perfectionist.
Emily Sander
Yes, I mean, it's worse state, it was my greatest fear. And it was like a visceral, just deep fear was being wrong in front of people. So being found out in front of people or making a mistake in front of, you know, this leadership group that we just talked about, which was very experienced professional. That was just like the end of the world. To me, it was something where if I, if I misspoke, or didn't, or, you know, God forbid, get like an actual data point wrong or fact wrong. But even if I just didn't deliver it in a way that I thought was the perfect way, or the most effective way to do that, I would just literally just get an adrenaline rush and start sweating, and just have my heart would start beating, I could hear my heartbeat in my ears, which I'm not a doctor, but it's probably not a good thing. And then afterward, I would ruminate on that. And I would play it back over and over and over again, for hours, days, and sometimes weeks, they would just get a hook in my, in my brain, I would go on that hamster wheel and run really, really hard for a long time. And of course, that isn't good for me. I wasn't showing up well to other people, I was still doing my job and getting things done. I was high-functioning in that, in that sense. But it was, it was just something that, that stuck with me. And so I think my certainly the way I showed up in those meetings wasn't as good as if I didn't have that. And my time and energy, oh, it's such so much energy out of me just, just a drain after I'd have those kind of incidents or events. It would be, it would be like a bomb going off. And I had to kind of let things settle before I could recover.
Kim Meninger
Mm hmm. I can feel like in my body what you're saying. Because I know it's so well. And I bet the vast majority of people listening right now can relate to that as well. And I think it's worth talking about for a moment the difference between perfectionism and having high standards for yourself. Because I think that is where some of the confusion lies. It's like, we almost think that if we're not perfectionists that we're going to get lazy or complacent, or we're not going to work as hard. And so how do you think about giving up perfectionism but still feeling like you're achieving and still, your goals?
Emily Sander
And I think that's a really important point to make. Because the way I see it, it's striving for excellence. And being a person of excellence is a huge advantage and is a value that I hold. And so when I was kind of trying to figure out, okay, I know I don't want the perfectionism. But I really, really don't want to give up, you know, trying to do a good job and being going above and beyond and being impressive. And all these different things being ambitious, it was okay. That part of it serves me well. So having high standards is fine. If you're, if you're wanting high standards for your team members, and then having a really good place to work, and then being able to grow and learn and having high standards for that. Having high standards for our customers. Like I don't want to just, you know, skate by on the lowest, you know, what's the least amount we can do? I want to serve our customers to the highest degree and have them go, Wow, it's so good working with that team where it's so it's so easy working with that company. And so I think they're, it's, that is an advantage and a positive thing. Where it gets tricky is if you take that too far, and it becomes a double-edged sword. So with almost any strength, right, if you take it too far, it'll turn against you and actually work against you. And so I was, I believe I was operating at the extreme of that spectrum. And it was absolutely just like it was like, it was like in Lord of the Rings where like Gollum is just like this corrupted, kind of, Oh, it went to the dark side. So, so the Jedi, maybe it's using the force for the good side and the light and then you can absolutely have that same energy and have those same elements working against you or, or possessing you and that's the dark side or Darth Vader, whatever, whatever analogy you want to use, but that's kind of how I look at it.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really good way to think about it too. And that is, I think part of the complexity of the experience is that part of the reason why we feel the way we do is because we are high achieving because we care because, because we want to be as effective as possible and have maximum, you know, contribute in the maximum way possible. But how do we get there? Without all the pain? Right? Because it's so painful what you're describing the physiological response. The, I don't know about you, but you know, waking up at two in the morning and thinking, if I said that. So what has your journey looked like to move away from some of that?
Emily Sander
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing was, I can't keep doing this, like, literally, like, I cannot keep this up. This is not a sustainable situation. And the second piece was realizing that when I was when I was going after perfection, which by the way doesn't exist, so let's just get that out there. Like, there is no such thing as perfect. Anyway, once I realized, Oh, this is this is going to kill me. There's, this is a losing battle, there's no such thing as perfect. You're always setting yourself up for failure when you say perfection is my goal. And, and I wasn't as effective nor efficient or the type of leader I really wanted to be if I was in that mode. So, when we talk about having high standards, and doing good for the people around us, and being impressive, going after perfection actually hinders that. And so when you say, Okay, let me, let me find this, this kind of mix or balance of, I want to have a good, a good lens, and going after things with I want to do well or above average, but then knowing that, you know, staying in that sweet spot of if I try too hard, so if I so let me, let me give an actual example. So I would work extremely long hours, right? So I'm like, the harder you work, the more perfect you'll be. And so I would work, you know, easily 1214 hour days. And in that, there was a point of diminishing returns. So there was a point of Emily, you can work four or five more hours. But the quality of work you're doing is not is not high. And so like the amount you like, technically you're getting more done. But, but not as much as you could is it as if you went back home, rested, took your mind off work for a while, and then came back in the morning with you know, fresh brain fresh ideas, like good night of sleep, and all these things, you would actually not only get more done in the long term, it would also be higher quality work. And so once I started putting those things together, I was like, oh, okay, I'm playing a bigger game. Now, I see this from a greater vantage point. And I want to I want to play that game, and get really good at at that game, not running on the hamster wheel, and trying to please everyone and trying to work as long as I as I could to prove to people I was a hard worker, it was No, I actually want to be more centered and grounded in myself, and know who I am and what I'm about. And then and then and what I'm about is a person of excellence, and then just let that exude from you. So if you are if you are focusing on that part of it, instead of external pieces, you know, instead of Who do I have to please, you know, who do I have to be to attract the right people and the right outcomes and things once I once I unlock that it was just, you just need to be you need to do to show up and it just kind of exudes from you.
Kim Meninger
I love everything that you just said, and I really want to I really want to stick on this point of perfectionism hindering what you're actually trying to accomplish, right? Because I think you make such a great point that we think, oh, I'll just keep working longer hours, I will just keep doing more and more. But as we all know, our brains are not capable of sustaining that level of performance at an optimal level for, for that period of time. And so it actually becomes counterproductive in a way that we may not recognize. And what you're making me think about is you're describing the value around excellence, right? And what I think is happening with perfectionism is that it becomes not about excellence, it becomes about protecting ourselves from the fear of something. Yes. Strophic happening, right? So they're not actually in alignment. It's and when you describe that physiological response that kicks in when you're worried about getting it wrong, you're actually more likely to make a mistake. Oh, of course. Yeah. State right. And so it's, it's actually undermining your effectiveness overall. And so it comes down to the motivation, right? Am I doing this because I'm motivated by making a bigger contribution? And I want to make a bigger impact. I want to be of service in some way. And this is something that I really care about, or am I motivated by fear? Am I motivated by loss of some sort?
Emily Sander
Yes. And I love that I mean, service is another one of my values. So I want it to be a good leader, I want it to be the best leader. I was sometimes, I was for sure, unsure of myself, and I had to prove myself to my team, even that I was a good leader, I wanted to be there. And I think what you said about the state that you're operating out of is so important. So you know, just like you said, when I was in those moments of adrenaline rush, and you know, sweating and just like clammy hands, of course, I'm not making good decisions. I'm like, in my reptilian brain trying to survive and like fend off the, you know, mammoth or the, you know, warring tribe or whatever. So, of course, I'm in survival mode, I'm not thinking clearly, and I don't have that creative resourcefulness I need. And so it might be something like, you know, what, you know, what's my headspace? Or what state Am I operating out of? Or what type of energy do I have? So, oh, I am I'm in a protective mode, I'm kind of like in a defensive crouch position, mentally or physically. And then instead of that, can I get to a place where, again, I'm grounded in myself, I know what I'm about, I know what I want to achieve? And I want, I want to put myself and my team in position for good outcomes, like you give us the highest probability for good outcomes. But also knowing that sometimes, a lot of the time, things are just outside your control, you can't, you cannot control everything. And that was a big one for me, too. I thought, Oh, if I just, if I just try harder, think of all the contingency plans, I can control these. And it's like, Emily, there are 7 billion people on the planet and so many different events and factors. The fact that you think you can control that is not only laughable, is pretty arrogant of you. So just you know, check yourself before you wreck yourself here and say, Here's my little you know, sphere of influence, and whatever I can control in that I want to take ownership of and responsibility for. But I'm not going to start taking responsibility for everyone around me and for the rest of the world. That's just not, that's just not my place.
Kim Meninger
I love that sort of acknowledgment. And it's kind of liberating, in a sense to be able to say it's just not possible. So here's your, your unrealistic, and your expectations, but it actually makes me think too about, I don't think academia does a good job of preparing for us for this because in academia, perfection is kind of possible, right? You can get a 4.0 or more, by working hard, you do have all of the you don't have to do that kind of contingency planning. Because everything you're going to be tested on is transparent, right? You're not going to get a question out of left field, you're not going to have that person that's showboating in the meeting that's gonna, you know, Sideswipe you with something right? Like you can control more of your experience when you are in school. And I think that gives us this illusion of control heading into the workplace. And if we're not mindful, and this is not something we're taught, it's not something that ever gets explicitly discussed this, at least as far as my own experience went, that you, you get stuck in that pattern, and you just assume, Oh, those same habits that served me well as a student are going to serve me well in this new role. And then their lack of reality around it kicks in and it usually if we learn it the hard way.
Emily Sander
Yeah, it's a gut punch. That's how we learn it. Yeah, I think situational leadership and self-awareness in different scenarios is really important. Because you're right, you can't, you can't apply a one-size-fits-all to every single situation you're in, it's just, it's just not going to work. I would say, you know, I was just talking to a neurosurgeon the other day on my podcast. And, you know, I was like, You're human. And so I'm sure you make mistakes, but that margin of error for you, I mean, the consequences are so big. And, and he was saying it is and so you want to be prepared. But like doctors are human, too. They have emotions, they have burnout, they need to manage themselves. And so he's like, we obviously have very high standards, and we want to check our doctors and making make sure they're doing okay. And so I think if you have something like literal brain surgery, then you want to pull out all the stops, right? You want to make sure that you're doing everything you possibly can. And maybe even, you know, we were talking about that point of diminishing return. Maybe that's further for certain situations. Maybe you have to move that's like okay, this is actually important. You know, I obviously I'm not a brain surgeon, but I remember doing a deal. It was an acquisition and it was a multimillion-dollar acquisition for us. And so I was putting some pieces of that together. And if I made a mistake, that could have consequences for our financials, but also for the people. So depending on the on the numbers we came up with certain people would have to be laid off. And so I was like, I don't want to get this wrong, because I don't want to, you know, lay off people who don't need to be laid off. And so I was like, let me go through everything. Let me shut off my email. And actually, you know, not, not, not be a perfectionist, but like, lean into that side of things, right? And then in other scenarios, where, hey, we have a fire drill, like the are the server went down, our customer sites are down, everyone's going crazy. It's like, let's move with intention. Right? Let's move with urgency. And we need to, we need to figure this out. With product rollouts for startups, I've been a part of those a lot. It's this. It's this concept called MVP, or minimally viable product. So not all the bells and whistles, not everything built out not everything perfectly. It's like what's the core product, get that out to market and then get feedback and iterate on it with from there. And so all of those different situations, you need to apply a different level of thinking and criticality and perfectionism or excellence to all of those different scenarios. So I think being aware, hey, it's not a one-size-fits-all. And let me just do like a quick mental check or a quick sanity check. Am I Am I applying the right level of, of thoughtfulness and prudence here?
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah. And I think that speaks to being selective about where you're putting your attention. And when something warrants more precision, more higher quality than something else. And so in the examples that you shared, I'm thinking that, you know, obviously, the most extreme example of somebody's doing brain surgery, and then also what you're talking about, I want to protect people's jobs. To me, that's where the mission kicks in. Right. And there's almost like short-term benefits to stress. If it allows you to focus it gives you that adrenaline to push through any fatigue or and just really, but I think that's different from I'm doing this to prove myself, I'm hopefully, I'm doing this because if I don't, somebody's gonna think I'm not good enough. It's more of like, No, I'm driven by this mission. And I can, I can handle this extra step stress for a limited time. And I think right now, we are in an environment that requires so much extra energy that we, were never intended to have the sustained levels of stress that we operate under or on a regular basis.
Emily Sander
For sure. I think there's a matter of there's, there's chronic stress, right, which is, which is bad. And then there's these kind of bouts or, or quick bursts of healthy stress, which is absolutely, like, we have that for a reason. And it can be used to our advantage. And so I think in terms of energy management is like, Okay, first of all, how do I play the long game here, right, my job is to stay in the game. So my job is to show up the best I can for as long as I can for as many people and as many areas of my life as I can, right? And so, if you look at it through that lens, you know, how much energy should I give this meeting that I'm in right now, okay, someone is going off, and they're being super stressful, and they're being a little bit aggressive and antagonistic toward the work I've done? Is that worth it for me to, you know, engage with them at the level, they're engaging or internalize a whole bunch of that, where it's like, you know, what, they're having, you know, something, they're having a bad day, right? Everyone has a bad day there. This is not about me, this is clearly about something else that's going on. And let me just call it for what it is. And then keep that keep that boundary there. So you know, what I'm going to choose not to take this in, I'm going to choose to preserve my energy and use it over here in my one one-on-one with this team member who is having is having trouble with this project, and it's stuck, and I can help them, get them unstuck. And that's my job as a leader. And now it also serve my mission of, of serving others and creating an excellent environment. So it's, it's, that is much, much easier said than done, or at least it was for me, right? So when we have these patterns and these habits that are like, deeply ingrained to the point of being blind spots, or it's like, I don't even I don't even see that I'm doing that Emily. I don't even I didn't even know that I was doing that. I worked with my coach and they would point these things out. And I was like, oh, like, Are there different options besides like running yourself into the ground to prep for a board meeting? Like, that's the thing you can do, oh, you can prepare like half the amount of time and show up better. Okay. So I would say you know, my, my coach helped me with that just see the blind spots, or give me perspective. But I think I'm knowing that you will very likely have to change something you're doing now. And that's going to cost you something right? It's the sacrifice is not going to be comfortable at the beginning. But again, for that long-term game for the long term, who you're going to be, and what are you going to be about in a year, in five years, in 10 years? Are you going to spend the next 10 years doing what you're doing now? And getting the same results as you're getting now? Or are you going to be willing to change something and potentially get different outcomes?
Kim Meninger
Hmm, that's such a powerful question. And I think about when you say there was a cost to change, right, there's also a cost to not changing.
Emily Sander
For sure, sometimes we get so focused on
Kim Meninger
What we're going to lose in the short term that we don't think about the longer term calculation. And so to your point, right, like, maybe I'm going to experience some discomfort, maybe people will even evaluate me differently because they are used to me in a certain way. But what are the costs of sustaining this over the long term? Right, and which is more important to me?
Emily Sander
I think there's, you can say where the opportunity costs, so what am I giving up by choosing this? And then there's also, also the way to say like, the positive versions of the affirming version. So it's kind of like, if you're going on a diet, don't say I can't have this, and I can't have bread, and I can't have carbs, you want to say the positive version, which is, I get to have a whole bunch of healthy food that makes me feel really good and energized, and helps me think clearly, I can have as much, you know, vegetables as I want, I can have any fruit I want. I can have, you know, a certain level of sweets, you know, once a week, whatever, like, say what you can have and say what it does give you and the positive. So it's not. It's a yes, it's how you frame it up. It's not Oh, I'm limited. I'm restricting myself. This is so hard. It's like, No, this is awesome. This is freeing, I get time back, I get mental energy back, I get emotional bandwidth Mac, how amazing is that? You can sleep again? Yeah, I know, I get sleep. Yeah, I feel rest, oh, my gosh, I had such insomnia. When I was, you know, I would go on this hamster wheel. And you said, you got up at 2 am. I couldn't fall asleep. So once I fell asleep, I was usually good. But I would, I would stay up and just be thinking about stuff. And of course, the next day, I would be low on sleep and short with people and just, you know, not be thinking as well as I could. And I think everyone knows, maybe on the weekend when you get to sleep in and you feel rested. And it's like, what is this, this is amazing, I could you know, I could do anything, I'm unstoppable. And so being in that space is just, it's just setting yourself up for success. And it's also you know, you're showing up better for other people. So that goes into the whole self-care thing, which is talked about a lot. But a lot of my clients are like, Emily, I can't, I can't do that I can't rest. Too many people are counting on me. And I'm like, you're right, there are a lot of people counting on you. So let's, let's run through this. So if you're, you know, on low sleep, and you're jacked up on caffeine, caffeine and Red Bull, and you're like bleary-eyed because you haven't seen you haven't been outside for a week. You know, there's that version, and then there's the rested, healthy. You know, I'm, I'm thinking this job is important. But I also have other facets of my life. And I'm balanced in that way. Which one of these people is going to be serving their team best? Which one of these people is going to make quality decisions? Which one of these people would you want making a decision about your career and your livelihood? Right? So it's putting yourself in good position to be a good decision-maker, and to show up for the people around you the best?
Kim Meninger
That’s a great way of framing that. And I'm curious if you have thoughts on this. Obviously, if this were an easy question to answer, we wouldn't be in the situation that we're in today. But you've worked. So for some very big, competitive, successful companies, what responsibility or opportunity to companies and of course, companies are just collections of people, right? So we'll say leaders have to be aware of this to try to intervene in some sense because what I'm thinking about just having worked in a competitive company myself is it's really hard for me to say I'm thinking of the person that says people are counting on me, right? It's really hard for me to say, Okay, I'm going to take care of myself when I see everyone around me, grinding themselves into the ground and thinking like who am I to go to sleep when my boss and all my peers and everyone else is, isn’t sleeping? And like that feels selfish or that feels like I'm not keeping up? I'm not as committed as the people around me and I'm watching all these people who are burning out and that almost becomes the standard, right? And I feel like I'm, I'm cheating my company, if I'm not behaving in this way.
Emily Sander
If you're more committed, if you're doing that you're more committed to the company to the team for all the reasons we just mentioned, but yes, I mean, I think it's a good question. I think it's a fair question to ask, you know, as someone who has been on the executive leadership team, part of me is like, I want people to work hard. And I want you know, I want to get fired, I want to do that I want to get there fast. So people need to, to be firing on all cylinders. And I think that absolutely goes hand in hand with creating an environment in which people can perform their best work for the longest amount of time. So I've seen I've been part of plenty of teams where the model is churn and burn them, right? So you squeeze everything you can out of someone. And once they're like a dried-up carcass, you just kind of like discard them, or you let them you know, quit on their own, because they can't handle it type of thing. And that is a model. It's, it's a bad one, in my opinion. But it is it is a model. I think that it is okay, and perfectly acceptable for companies and bosses to expect you to work hard to expect you to at the very least put in an honest day's work, it doesn't have to be your life's mission. It doesn't have to be your pinnacle of a job or career. But if you're signing up for this job, and you're getting paid for it, then, then it's fine to ask a certain amount of your people, I think giving them the tools to do that. So learning opportunities, growth opportunities, are big for people, I think, not expecting them to work 16-hour days and not expecting them to work on the weekends, all, all weekends, is, is important. But I've had times where I've had to rally the troops. And it's like, hey, we have this big project, or we have this big deal coming through. So for the next two weeks, I need someone to volunteer to work later. So we can get this through. And people will raise their hand because they know it's the exception, they know is asking for a purpose. They are invested in the outcome as well. And so that's much different. But I think you can have both right? It's not an either or I think you can have we worked hard here. That's part of being on this team. We work smart, we take care of each other. But we work really hard. And at the same time, I'm going to, I'm going to meet you halfway. And I'm going to make sure that you have the tools and environment and the flexibility when you need it and when you can have it that you, that you deserve as well.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think that's a really great way of thinking about it is because I think most people would like to think of themselves as high achievers with a purpose who want to feel like they're doing good, important work. And so they, it's that and you can still take care of yourself. And you actually perform better when you aren't working 16 hours a day, every single day for years on end. And I love that your example. And then in the moment when we need to. We are available mentally.
Emily Sander
In that capacity. Yes, yes.
Kim Meninger
Exactly. Oh my gosh, Emily, this is such a fantastic conversation. What am I missing? Anything? I haven't asked you that you think you, you think about?
Emily Sander
Oh, you've asked some really good questions, you've covered some big ones. What else? I would just you know, for people listening, I would just take inventory of, of where you're spending your energy. So sometimes it's not about time management, it's about energy management. So where am I spending my energy? What, what helps me show up at my best so that that list of criteria is going to be a little bit different? For each person. There's, there's the classics like sleep and you know, eating well and hydrating and all those things. But what helps me show up at my best is a good question to ask, and then have, have the courage and the fortitude to act on that. It's great. If you think about it, it's great if you write about it in a journal, but at some point, you have to act and you have to have the courage to do something different and do something that's slightly uncomfortable and do something that you're going to be wobbly at and not perfect the first time or the second time or third time or fourth time. And just and just getting to a place where you're okay with that. And not only okay with that is kind of exciting. And you're looking forward to it. Because you're creating the person you're going to become, you're defining who you are, and you're getting to like etch edge that into stone and, and craft that. And so that, to me is part of what being human is all about. And so that's what we're meant to do are meant to grow and learn and explore and try to become the best version of ourselves. And so if we're just staying stagnant and running in that hamster wheel, we're not doing our purpose as a human almost in some ways. And so just finding your way to, to, to enhance yourself and to be a person of excellence and that way, I think does take a lot of courage but take that moment to let me actually take some time to think about it. Let me take inventory of what I have going on right now. And then what will it take to get me to that next level and get me in position to show up at my best?
Kim Meninger
Hmmm? Yeah, and I come back in my mind to what you were saying earlier too about don't frame it in the negative frame it in a positive. And so if you have to have this conversation with your manager to instead of saying, Gosh, I really need sleep, and you know, all the negatives, right, which maybe they're not going to be as empathetic to because of their own lack of sleep, but I'm at my best when, right? Like, I really care about this, and I want to be able to make my, my best contribution. And that might mean that tonight, I just need to kick off my sleep, and I'll be back in the morning.
Emily Sander
And it could even be you know, you don't even have to go to like how many hours of sleep is like, hey, tying it to something your manager cares about, right? Like this project that is important for our team, you know, I have, I want to be 100% for that. So I'm going to make sure that, you know, I'm doing the things I need to do this week, to give you the highest quality work. And so you're going to see me tomorrow at whatever 8 am And I'm going to be going through this, this and this part of the project. So just tell them like, you know, I'm, I'm wanting to do a good job. I know this is important. And I'm going to put myself in position. And then if people have if people have detailed questions, you can certainly answer those. But most people won't. If they're like, oh my gosh, Kim is super invested in this project like she is, she is showing up and she is a rock star like she has all these ideas. And she's super-efficient. So I think that's, that's the way to go about it, too.
Kim Meninger
Oh, this is so fantastic. I'm so excited that we had this conversation and I want to wrap up by asking you how can people find you if they want more of you?
Emily Sander
Yes. So you can go to my website, which is kind of the hub for all the information. It's www dot next level dot coach. So next level all one word dot coach, you've got links to my podcast, leveraging leadership, my books, which talk about some frameworks on leadership, and then some free, free downloadable resources as well. So next level dot coach.
Kim Meninger
Thank you so much, Emily, and thank you for all the great work that you're doing.
Emily Sander
Yeah, thank you, Kim. It was it was a real pleasure being on so thank you so much for having me.