In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about time. Why do so many of us struggle with time? Why do we feel so out of control of our own calendars? And how do we keep ourselves from reaching our breaking point? My guest this week, Marissa Lee, is an HR leader and thought leader on what she refers to as time wealth. Marissa shares her journey with time and how she came to realize that she needed to make changes. She also helps us to understand why this is such a challenge for us and what we can do to build our own time wealth.
About My Guest
Marissa Lee is a Time Wealth™ Strategist, Career Activist, Leadership Expert, and Author with a unique approach to helping rethink the relationship between employer and employee through the lens of time. She specializes in helping aspiring/new senior leaders decode the employee experience to improve personal and team engagement, performance, and career success. Over the 13 years, Marissa has combined her passion for people and processes to provide strategic business solutions for Fortune 500 companies in the fashion, building materials, and chemical industries.
She is the founder of SOW EVOLVE, LLC, an HR consulting business, where she provides B2B employee experience, employee engagement, and team synergy solutions. She also provides individual and group leadership development coaching. The firm provides private coaching services, strategy sessions, and corporate trainings to support and accelerate success. Through her work, she is on a mission to create time-wealthy and life-healthy leaders.
In 2019, Marissa published her first book, a #1 Amazon Bestseller in Career Management, Why I Broke Up With My Company. The book builds on Marissa’s advocacy of career ownership and helps the reader level up and progress with her E.V.O.L.V.E methodology. Whether employee or employer, Marissa challenges the reader to analyze the “stay or go” decision.
When Marissa is not busy growing the SOW EVOLVE brand, she’s spends her time with her German American Rottweiler, Domino Boss Lee. She is also a proud graduate of The Ohio State University.
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Kim Meninger Welcome, Marissa, I’m so excited to have you here today. And I’d love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Marissa Lee Yes, hi, everyone. My name is Marissa Lee, I am the founder of SOW Evolve, LLC, when we are a coaching consulting firm, where we focus in on helping leaders become leaders of choice, through time walks, we help them create time well, which I know we’re going to deep dive into today. But that’s the focus of the organization. And I’m super excited to be here to have this conversation today.
Kim Meninger And I love, that was one of the things that I was really drawn to when you and I first connected was this idea of time wealth, because I think that every one of us thinks we don’t have enough time. It’s like, the biggest thing that we all complain about is there’s just not enough time. So. So when you think about, like, how you got to where you are, what’s your story, like? What’s your relationship to time, what brought you to this problem?
Marissa Lee The pain of not managing you, right and optimizing it, you know, you get to this space of like, it’s, it’s better to change because the pain of not changing is greater than staying the same. But I would say, it took me some time to get there. I’ve had a very successful career. And when I reflect on it, I’m like, after graduating from college, and I’ll fast forward through this, it was hard to find an opportunity. And so it was two years before I found a full-time job. But after that my career just like took off, it just accelerated. But in that process, I realized I learned things, maybe not the best way. So I had to unlearn some things. And it wasn’t until I got to the point of I was, I ended up in the hospital, just from burnout, and all these different things that I was dealing with, where it impacted me physically. And then. So even that was like, it was like, Okay, I need to start doing something I need to manage how I am, how I’m pouring into others and get more control over my life in those regards. And so that was like the tip of the iceberg. And then the other part that sent me over, I had a mentor, say, Marissa, God wants to bless you so much. But you don’t have any room to receive it. You have to make some, you have to get capacity there. And it’s like, okay, I get it. I hear your God, I hear what you’re telling me. So I definitely began the time wealth journey. And when I look back, it started beforehand, like pieces, because as I shared with people, this is not something that just happens overnight. And it’s not just managing time, there are a lot of components that goes into time wealth. But really living it and being able to say yes, I’ve finally, you know, hit this plateau, and I understand it. I definitely would say that was like after those experiences for sure.
Kim Meninger So yeah, it’s terrible that you had to go to and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but hearing you say you were hospitalized. Like, that sounds like rock bottom, right? Like that’s a really a kind of situation that becomes an Okay, now I have to do something about it. Right. And so I’m curious, what, what do you think, is the reason or some of the reasons why we’re all in this battle with time, like, what, what are we doing or not doing that’s bringing us to this place?
Marissa Lee The first thing I would say is, I don’t think people really understand their relationship with time. So when you don’t understand your relationship with time, you don’t know how to respect it. You don’t know how to use it. You don’t know how it shows up in your life. You don’t know how to put boundaries in place, you don’t know, you know what priorities should take precedence in connection with that. And a lot of times, we just, we let the day happen, we let life just happen as opposed to it’s, it’s integrated together. It’s like, okay, life is going on, but you have to be aware of how you’re navigating through life. And when you understand the relationship, you know, and you get better at putting things in place so you can optimize your time and your energy and what you want to invest in, in those respects and what you shouldn’t. And so you get better with your yes, you stand on your no, and it really helps along the way. So I think that’s the first thing. The other part is you don’t have time. People just don’t have time and so it It’s helping people understand the relationship and then creating the space. So they do have time and helping them realize it’s not just about time, it’s about your energy levels. Because if you have time, but you’re tired, you’re not, you’re going to waste time. Or you’re, you’re going to other things are going to be able to steal your time because you’re going to be distracted because you’re tired. Then there’s the components of like understanding your priority. So what is that big picture? And how do you break that down to your day-to-day? How does that connect with the capacity, you actually have to give? How does that connect with the boundaries you’re putting in place in connection with that, and then so you can create that whole life harmony, because a lot of people are striving towards that they want to have that integration of work and life, and be able to do the things they need to do and also enjoy the things that they want to enjoy. And that’s what time wealth actually speaks to it speaks to the creation of an abundance of discretionary time, so you can live and lead the life you desire and deserve. And as people get more understanding of what it is they can create the time, so then they can have those things that they’re looking for.
Kim Meninger And I love that you use that expression time wealth because I’ve been thinking lately, just because of my own time management challenges about how we are much more likely to respect a financial budget in the sense that we know okay, if this costs $100, and I only have $80, I can’t afford it. So I can’t. But when it comes to time, we’re constantly bending ourselves over and backwards and contorting ourselves into these positions that are not natural because we don’t honor time as a finite resource, right? It’s like, we don’t have the same kind of, oh, there are only so many as hours of the day, this time is already accounted for. Sorry, this is not going to happen until another time, right?
Marissa Lee Yes, you’re spot on. That is like you’re in my mind right now. Because one of the things that I help people to understand is connecting it to money because you know, we say time is money, right? But if you had money, and it just going out of your bank account, and you’re getting in the rat, you’re gonna be like, okay, timeout, I’m not gonna be able to do this need to put a plan in place. I gotta figure this out. If you’re being responsible, okay? I leverage that from the same place of time because money’s tangible. So as people were seeing that they’re like, Okay, I need to do something with but with time, it’s intangible from the standpoint of like, you can’t touch it, you can’t feel it, but it’s still moving. And you’re still, it’s like you said, It’s finite. And so people usually don’t realize that they are losing it or not optimizing it until it’s too late. And then they look back. And they’re like, what, it’s been 20 years, and I’m stuck in the job. And I don’t really like it. Why am I here, or my kids graduating for college, I remember when they were in preschool, but I don’t remember anything in between because I wasn’t there I was working and trying to provide. And I want to help people move away from that, and get to the point where they can integrate work in life, and be able to enjoy because a lot of, a lot of the aspect with this in living life, it’s like when that time is gone, you can’t get it back on like money, money, you can go and make some more of, but once the time is gone, you can’t get it back. So being able to help people understand that aspect. And then to create the legacy with it. So the wolf part is connected to legacy. Because you know, when people are rich, still fairly new money, you know, it hasn’t been established over generations. And so with time wealth, and as people understand and create this life with that, I want it to impact not only them, but the people around them, and the people who come from them and the people who are going to be connected to them in the future.
Kim Meninger I love everything that you just said and I love how when you talk about legacy, and you talk about the work-life integration piece, what I’m hearing you say is the importance of really understanding our values because so many of us do reach a point in our lives, either. You know, something happens that wakes us up or you know, we go through some kind of a life transition. And then we realize, uh-oh, I’ve not living a life that’s in alignment with my values. And then all of these regrets come in. And so I love the way you’re talking about it as an opportunity for us to be proactive and say, who do we want to be in relationship to time? How do we want to be spending this, this precious resource so that we don’t end up in the future and look back and say, Oh, what have I done?
Marissa Lee I love that. You mentioned values because I’m like, she’s like, leading me right into the time wealth. So as a part of time wealth, there are eight components and Value Management is, is one of them. So there’s the time management, and I like to call that out. Because when people hear time wealth, they’re like, Oh, time management, I’m like, yeah, one component, but there’s more that comes along with that. So there’s the value management part, there’s the self-management part, and really reflecting on, you know, how you, how you play a role in either optimizing or not optimizing that time. And then there’s the boundaries you have to put in place. And then we talked a little bit earlier about capacity priorities, energy management, and then how that all rolls into creating that whole life harmony. And so going back to your point around the Value Management, that is one of the key pieces of understanding your relationship with time. And one of the reflections that I did in starting this process, and then that I have people I work with do is really reflect on their time origin story, when did it really sink into them, like, oh, I need to get this together, understand that, but then even go on beyond that, because our stories all start from the standpoint of one where we are, we’re on other people’s time. So even as a child, our time was already set out for us, you’re gonna go to school, you’re gonna come home, you get to play a little bit, you get a nap. I really wish I can have naps. Like, I make the time for them when I can. Because I love naps. But it’s just like, that was set out for us, right? And then as we continue to get older and you’re, you’re getting to middle school, high school, you’re adding extracurriculars, you’re adding your job, you’re adding all these different things on top, onto your plate. And we are not being taught very similar with like financial management, we don’t always get the tools and the insight on hey, you’re going to be required to handle and do more, you need to think through this a lot more strategically, and not flounder in a way. And then we get to the point of adulting. And now it’s like, you got to handle it all you have family and you, you have all these other things on top of it. And a lot of times people weren’t necessarily equipped with the skills and abilities to be able to navigate that because it was set for them beforehand. So it’s there is a shift that has to happen of when you know people because I think that, that children should be learning this earlier. So then when they become adults, and they’re adults, and like we are, they are better positioned to optimize that as they go forward.
Kim Meninger Well, and I think that speaks to your legacy point, too, right? Because I don’t think we have great role models for time. And if we’re growing up in an environment that has two parts to it, right? Like you said, someone else is dictating our time and how we’re spending it. And then the only people we observe are people who are also sort of hostages to different people’s schedules and things like that. And we don’t get that kind of learning. And not until again, it’s forced upon us because we reach a point in our lives where we have no choice. And so I love that your, your sort of overall frame of how you think about this problem is beyond the individual, it really does have a ripple effect across everybody in your orbit.
Marissa Lee It definitely does. And that’s the key part of working with leaders and looking at this from an organizational perspective. Because it will help with engagement, it will help with retention. If you look at the values of what employees are looking for what they’re asking for, especially after the pandemic, there has been a great emphasis on that work-life integration and the flexibility to be able to not only do the things that they need to do but that they want to do and I share with people like the new corner office is working remote on a beach somewhere like you have to kind of come up with times with how the corner office looks different today. And it looks different for different individuals. Some people will still want that you know corner office type, top of the skyscraper, you know, room as opposed to the next person, just give me some time off or give me the flexibility to do what I need to do as I go forward. And so with time wealth, it helps to create the space where organizations actually have time to evaluate, to really understand what their employees need, in connection with their customers because you have to understand the full ecosystem. And shareholders and any other person that’s a part of, of that process is why I speak to people first model, when it’s the people first, you have to think about all the people in the ecosystem. And sometimes organizations get in the space where it’s like our customers, our customers, yet, yet, they’re one and we have some other components of that that you have to consider. So then you can do the execution appropriately. And time wealth, one gives us the time to be able to do that, but also break down, how do you take that big picture, resize it, so then people know what they’re doing day to day, and then they can connect that with what they have going on day to day in their personal lives.
Kim Meninger And I so appreciate the macro-level view. Because I feel like as a society, we’ve painted ourselves into a corner because we have placed such a strong value on hustling and urgency and short-term gains. At a long-term expense, we know that people aren’t physically equipped to spend the amount of time that we expect of them to be working. And so there are a lot of lost hours, lot of lost productivity, and you talked about burnout. So there’s just so many harmful effects of this from a retention standpoint, from a quality of life standpoint. But everyone’s so afraid to make the first move because we’re all sort of committed to propping up this broken system by pretending that we’re superheroes and nobody wants to be the one to say timeout, this doesn’t work for anybody.
Marissa Lee Pun intended, right? I agree with you on that. And that’s where I am definitely lending my voice to it. And one of the things that I have around boundary management is helping people get comfortable with their No, like, no is this like, bad word in the workplace? Like you said no, like what, like in the end? And so people, dear deal, excuse me with the emotion of fear? If I say no, if I don’t go along with the status quo with this, how will this impact me? I think it’s going to impact me, so I’m not going to even bother and do it. And that we’ve been conditioned. We’ve been conditioned to do that. And so as you continue to learn, you start to unlearn to say, even though we were taught this way, people did the best that they could, it’s okay to be open to new ways of doing things. And that’s where not only with time wealth, but just anything in general, as we continue to move forward. You have to be open. Technology is changing the workplace. And we’re open to that with AI coming in, automation and all these different things. So the same with life? And how do we leverage these tools that are out there to make it easier for people to do work and life, people aren’t, aren’t just living to work. And we have to change the mindset around that where there is this expectation that you have to dedicate all your time to an organization. And if you don’t, it’s perceived as if you’re not loyal, or you don’t want to be there. That’s not the case. And if that’s the mindset you have around it, that, that’s a piece that you have to pause and reflect on. And if you want loyalty, there’s a lot that needs to be shown with that to be able to receive that level of commitment because now you’re getting on the continuum of commitment. You’re asking for loyalty, which is like at the top level, however, you’re not willing to give. And so it’s just giving people the chance to take that look in the mirror and say, Okay, how do we do this better and where are we today and moving forward? And sometimes you just need that outside voice to ask the right question, or to hold up the mirror so an individual is able to see it. And that’s where I come in, I’m happy to hold the mirror.
Kim Meninger I love it. And, and I just keep thinking too about as you’re talking the there’s a sort of practical application side to what you’re talking about of like, how do we prioritize? How do we rethink some of our, our interactions with time, but also this mindset piece, that’s so important because when you talk about the fears that we all bring to setting boundaries, or, you know, pushing back in some way, there is this perceived power imbalance. We feel like, we don’t have the right or we don’t have the authority to own our own time in terms of our work relationship. And so we have, over time allowed our job to own more and more of our time, right, it used to be you come in at eight or whatever, you leave at five, you clock in, you clock out, and that’s the end of it. And now it’s like, especially when sometimes people are working at home or with these different models. It’s like the time is creeping and creeping and creeping, and then we feel like, Oh, well, I can’t be the only one on my team who doesn’t respond to emails at 11 pm. Or I can’t be the only one who doesn’t show up to the 6 am meeting. And then everyone’s taking cues from each other. And so I think that this piece of self-empowerment is so important. And she tie it to what you said too, about that commitment. And that has to be an exchange of mutual value, to always recognize at the end of the day that you have choices, and if your company is treating you this way, that’s not respectful. If that’s the expectation, it’s an opportunity to reflect and ask yourself, Is this the best environment for me?
Marissa Lee Do you want me to just talk about my book now? I’m kidding. But seriously, you’re spot on with everything that you just mentioned. Because that is a big part of really being able to help people see their power and time wealth has them start with understanding their relationship with time. But as they’re doing that reflection, they are looking across the full spectrum. Why have you allowed time to get away from you? Who’s been a part of that? What boundaries do you need to put in place in connection with that, and it helps them to reclaim their power, and shift the power dynamics? And I’m one of the people where I’ve always been the individual to ask why. And it didn’t matter what title somebody held. So I respect the title. And I also look at it as if you’re still an individual, you’re human, I can talk to you from that standpoint. So I would not relinquish my power in those regards. And what I’ve seen is a lot of people have given their power away, they don’t think they have any power at all, in the situ… in any in those different situations. And as for me, I go in with you have positional power, or title power, but I also have power. And I’m also going to make sure I leverage and use that in the right way. And that’s a piece of the unlearning and relearning that people have to go, go through to one embrace time wealth. Because if they don’t do that, they’re gonna be like, there’s no way I can get this. I can’t tell my boss no. I can’t do that. And it’s just like, yes, you can. And there’s a way to do it respectfully but help bring them a part of the journey. So the key thing about boundaries, the boundary is for you to teach people how to treat you. The same with time wealth. As you optimize your time you think you’re on the journey, but you’re helping people come along on your journey, like, Okay, you guys can still squander your time. However, when you when you’re with me, this is what I need. I need you to interact with me and set that tone with it in a respectful way. It’s not like you’re just going into like, Nope, I’m not doing that. Like, you know, but it’s helping people understand, like, here’s what’s on my plate. You’re asking me to take something else and put this on there. It’s full. Some of this stuff ain’t even asked for I don’t want to do that. But it’s already there. And I’m willing to keep it and you know, manage do this. But if you want to add something else, something needs to come off. So let’s talk about what that is. And that’s a totally different conversation than just going in and saying no, and what I’ve seen is people usually get to the point where they’re just like, No, I’m not doing it. That’s not my job because they feel like they have no other way they’ve reached the threshold. And it’s like it’s too much on their plate. And if they add one more thing, it’s going to crush them. And so that’s where, from an organizational standpoint, I really look to try to help organizations see, like, the first reaction is to kind of look and say, Oh, somebody’s saying that’s, that’s not their job, they just don’t want to do it. They’re lazy, there’s, that’s not the case. The case could be they just have too much on their plate. And that’s the only way that now they’ve gotten to the point where they, they’re in that fight-or-flight protection mode. And it’s like, I can’t take anything else. If I’m going to be successful, if, forget success, I’m not going to completely burn out. And so those are some of the components, that as individuals and organizations, you know, people need to think through.
Kim Meninger And I really think about this, as you said, early on, you reference to leaders, right? And I think that so often, we come from a place of fear for all the reasons that we’re talking about. But leadership is about making tough choices, right? Leadership is about resource management. When we have any type of leadership role, positionally, or otherwise we, we can decide to be a leader in any role that we play, we’re limited by the resources that are available to us. So again, if I don’t have the budget, I’m not going to be buying this new software, if I don’t have the headcount, I’m not going to be adding new people to my team, but I don’t have the time, I’m not gonna be taking on that new project, right, unless you take something else off my plate. And so there’s this fear of revealing incompetence or this, like I am telling my manager that I can’t handle it, when I say that I have too much to do, as opposed to say, there’s a business problem here that needs to be solved, there aren’t enough resources available to achieve this goal. So we’re going to need to shuffle the deck in some way and decide what are our highest priorities. And I think if we can sort of take the personal out of this equation, and not think of it as some type of a reflection on our capabilities, but more so like, I’m going to solve this in any in the same way that I solve any kind of a problem, right? Then it gives us more freedom to find a new way of doing it.
Marissa Lee Yeah, and you’re spot on with that it’s, for with the time wealth angle, it’s a combination of what you just described. And then it’s also the piece of, here’s the mirror, you really need to see, are you this leader that you claim to be because the leader is going to think about it in the way that you just mentioned, a lot of times, what you will see is, there have been people who have been elevated to leadership roles that aren’t leaders, they struggle with management because there is a difference between leading and management. And so now they’ve been, they’ve been catapulted into this spot where they’re not equipped to actually even think about it in that way. And so even if you are coming from the standpoint to say, let’s take the vision, let’s talk about what the priorities are in what we are looking to execute on it. And if this is the really the right work we should be doing. If the person is not a leader, they’re going to take you no offense to what you’re saying. Because now they’re, they’re internalizing it as an indictment of their ability to do their job, so to speak. And who are you to question that and even bring this up? Right. And so you talked a little bit about this earlier on, like, there is a component of this where you have to assess, is it the right environment for you because some people are just not going to get it. And it will be, you’re in a culture where no is not tolerated, and they want you to sleep overnight to get the work done. And, you know, we’re not going to talk about that one company that does it. We all saw the company and, and all the stuff that went along with it and the culture that’s associated with that. If you’re not, you know, in the office doing that at the beck and call. And so that’s where that self-reflection in that value work you have to do to say, Okay, this is what the organization is saying that they can do for me, this is the leader that I have, is this just this person or is this, you know, across the organization because sometimes it’s not like, you just need to leave, it could just be the group you’re in or the group you’re supporting. And you need a different space than usual look for that opportunity or internally. Other times, it is environmental. And I know you talk a lot about imposter syndrome environments can create impostor syndrome, it can create this space where you’re like, Oh, I’m not doing my best, it can create a lot of different things. And when you get to that point, and if you’re not fully aware of who you are, and what you bring to the table, you will start to see the impact of that. And so that’s where people have to be able to know who they are, and then assess does the org is the organization in alignment with that. And if it’s not, then you go find a place that embraces what is in alignment with you.
Kim Meninger Absolutely. And I think we’re so afraid of rejection, or, you know, having somebody be not like us be upset with us, that we’re afraid to even try out some of these new behaviors. And so one of two things is going to happen in my mind, either, you’re going to receive that kind of feedback that says, You, in order to be seen, as a fully committed member of this team, you’re gonna have to find a way to do it, whatever it takes. And that’s data, right? That’s important data for me to be collecting. And deciding Is this an environment where I can do my best work, or I’m going to be pleasantly surprised. Because just because they don’t see it today, doesn’t mean it’s not possible. Because if I don’t bring that information to my manager, they don’t have that insight. [Exactly] So they don’t know how much we’re drowning, unless we ask them for a life preserver. They can’t solve a problem they don’t know exists. And I think too often, we make it look easy because we’re so afraid to say that it’s too much. And we just keep doing it behind the scenes and smiling and saying everything’s fine until we reach our breaking point. And then it’s, you know, terrible for, for everyone involved.
Marissa Lee That’s the point that I was making earlier, the pain of remaining is less than the pain of changing. And so we have to get to that tipping point where it’s just like, Okay, we can’t do this anymore. But like you said, oftentimes we make it look easy, we continue to juggle, and then it’s only it’s once everything kind of falls. And it’s just like, I’ve been dealing with all of this and that and then like, Well, why didn’t you tell me? So there is a responsibility for the individual, there’s a responsibility for the leader, there’s a responsibility for the organization at large because it’s like, what culture is there, that also creates the space where people feel like they can’t say something. And that’s another part we have that overlays it of like, is there the psychological safety, to be able to have that conversation with the supervisor around what’s going on? And why does it need to take heroics? To get to the point where you can have a dialogue? And that’s a culture type of opportunity that organizations have to consider. Are you creating the space so they can raise their hand and say this? And then, on the other end, how are you managing it when you’re making these decisions? Are you strategically thinking through everything? Or are you committing to things without thinking through the execution? And now it’s like, yeah, we committed to this go execute because you create all the additional churn that comes along with that. And so there are definitely the components of individual leadership and organizational responsibility.
Kim Meninger Yeah, I think that’s a really good way to think about it. And that’s at the end of the day, all organizations are our collection of people. And it each one of us has our own power, like you described, to make changes and to test and experiment with new things. And I think that, you know, a big part of what we’re talking about is being willing to step outside our comfort zones, be courageous enough to, you know, respectfully, like you said, challenge the system and see what happens and either way you win because either you get what you’re looking for, or you get really important information to decide what’s right for you.
Marissa Lee A win is a win. It’s a win.
Kim Meninger You’re right. And I’m still rooting for you and your work because it is so important, I feel like now more than ever, where can people find you if they want to learn more and connect with you?
Marissa Lee Yes, so you can find me on all social media platforms. So I am listed as I am Marissa Lee on all of them. If you go to Facebook, it’s I am Marissa Lee. Somebody took my name. But I want all the different platforms, you can also reach out to me on my website. So if you’re ready to start your time wealth journey, you can take the leadership assessment there, which is www.soweole.com, soweevolve.com. Or you can just join into the I have a Timeout Newsletter, where it’s talking about all things time wealth in connection with, you know, whole life harmony, future of work, and just really key things that the workforce is currently going through at this time in connection with time wealth, of course. So you can definitely become a part of that, or just shoot me a hello, hi, I’m frequently posting, you can see that, and I found the trick for that to balance that time. So I’m not always online, but I definitely will get back to you and respond as soon as possible. So I would love to hear from you. Feel free to connect with me on any of those platforms.
Kim Meninger That’s wonderful. And I will put those links into the show notes as well for anybody who wants to check those out. And thank you so much, Marissa, thank you for the great conversation and thank you for the great work that you’re doing.
Marissa Lee Thank you. Thank you for having me.