Finding Joy and Purpose in Dark Places
- Kim Meninger
- 13 minutes ago
- 27 min read
In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, I talk with Melanie Marshall, keynote speaker, coach and former foreign correspondent for BBC News. Melanie spent decades reporting from some of the most dangerous and disaster-stricken parts of the world and what she came away with might surprise you.
We explore how, in the midst of violence, tragedy and injustice, Melanie discovered the power of human connection, joy and purpose. She shares what she’s learned about storytelling, resilience and the importance of grace, especially toward ourselves. We also talk about how imposter syndrome can show up even after massive success, and how owning your story can be the most courageous act of all.
About My Guest
Melanie Marshall is a speaker, coach and filmmaker who spent over 20 years as a BBC journalist in some of the world’s most high-risk - and surprisingly inspiring places.
Working under immense pressure, in wild uncertainty, for high stakes; she managed to come out the other side with award-winning results, and with her sanity and sense of humour (mostly) intact.
Now, from the TEDx stage to the boardroom, Melanie's new mission is to help people use her hard-won lessons to thrive in uncertainty by leaning into their 'accidental bravery' and optimism.
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Connect with Melanie:
Website: www.melaniemarshall.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Mel, it's so great to have you here today. I've been looking forward to this conversation, and I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Melanie Marshall
Well, I was born in No, I won't go that far back. My name is Melanie Marshall. I am a proud Canadian, and I say that because I am finally back in Canada after many, many years wandering the world for BBC News. I was a foreign journalist working in danger and disaster zones, a lot of places people would probably think of as scary, but I often found inspiring, and I have had the most wonderful life and career, and I wanted to do more with that, and I wanted people to understand what, why I think we are not doomed, and how I think we can move through the uncertainty personal and bigger that we find ourselves in. So now I'm out in the wide world as Ronan, if anyone knows that I'm, you know, masterless samurai only masters myself as a keynote speaker, filmmaker and a coach.
Kim Meninger
I have so many questions for you, because I think the world that you were part of for so many years is one that is unimaginable to so many people. And, like you said, probably very scary and, and I wonder, I'd love to go a little bit further back and just ask you, was that a plan that you had? How did you get into that kind of work?
Melanie Marshall
When I was younger, I never dreamed of getting married or having kids or like, you know, when you think about what? What do we dream about? I always like, I bought travel books, I and I remember that. I remember being like 12 years old, and like circling countries. In that time, there was this let's go series, and I would circle these countries I wanted to go to, and I wanted to travel the world and have adventures. That was what I dreamt about. Wow. And I first went backpacking across Europe when I was 18 years old. So when I graduated high school, I graduated when I was 17, and I moved out about two weeks later to go and earn money to go traveling. And I think, I mean, my mom says, you know, she's like, well, you know, she said, people said to me, you know, oh, you must be so worried about this. And she said, but we didn't really think we could stop you. You know, there wasn't any sense we could stop you. And I saved up the money and I went traveling, and I went to Europe, and I backpacked, and I saw all these places, and I loved it. I mean, that you want to know what was the beginning of that, that it was that. And then I worked more, and I went back. And I actually, I mean, my first conflict zone, although I always say it was very quiet at the time was I went to Dubrovnik when it was just towards the end of the that conflict, the Balkans conflict, and it was the first time, I mean, it wasn't dangerous. I swear, I was like, 19, but honestly, like, I probably was a bit stupid to go. And I remember sitting in a cafe with these incredible people who'd welcomed me in, and you could hear them shelling the airport. I definitely didn't tell my mom this at the time, and you could hear them shelling the airport. And we were sitting in a cafe drinking sodas, and I obviously must have looked a little nervous, because somebody reached over and patted my hand and said, we'll tell you when to worry. Oh, wow. But I mean, that's way back. How did I get into it was at one point I was backpacking and traveling and having a grand old time, and I none of my friends. I was in Amsterdam, none of my friends made enough money. They were all artists and students to marry me. And, you know, give me a visa, and I had this realization, I've got to go back to school. And I thought, well, what would I like to do to travel and have adventures? And I thought, I'll go study journalism. And so off I went. And I thought, well, I want to work in foreign news. I care about the world. I want to tell the world stories. I want to tell stories about the world, to the, you know, to the world. And when I had a chance to do work experience as part of my degree, I thought, well, I don't want to do I want to see if I really want to do that. And I met. Through a long series of phone calls, a long series of late-night annoyances of various correspondence, I managed to convince the then Africa Bureau Chief for the BBC, he was kind of guilted into taking my phone call. I convinced him to take me on as an intern. And that started it because I, I he, he said at my leaving party, well, if it didn't work, I was going to shove you in the corner, but I ended up going to the Okavango Delta, which is it should be on everyone's bucket list in Botswana. And I remember being in this tiny plane flying to film this feature about eco-tourism, which, at the time was nothing right, didn't exist. And I remember being in this tiny plane, seeing wild dogs beneath me and thinking I was born to do this like this is it. I met Nelson Mandela. Like, I mean, I totally humiliated myself, but like, I was too excited, like, to this day, that's the like, that's the only one that, like matters. All these things and it was like it was exactly what I thought it was, and I just kept going, just kept... I had it. It was in my blood then.
Kim Meninger
It's amazing, because there's a way in which I think so many of us can relate to that aspiration of wanting to see the world, but you ended up in pretty difficult circumstances, right? Conflict zones, like not necessarily the places that we put on our, on our bucket lists.
Melanie Marshall
I suppose I never thought about it in terms of the sometimes the place, because these are often incredibly beautiful places. Like Afghanistan is beautiful, and the people, when they are not being horribly oppressed, are funny. Like, one of the reasons I love it is because I love to laugh, and Afghans love to laugh. So I love it because it's beautiful, and people love to laugh there. So, you know, job done. And Syria, another place that's incredibly beautiful and has great food, right? So you know you so maybe you know, I'm attracted to the people and the story, and you don't, maybe you don't put it on your list, but I don't judge it as scary the way some people do, because I don't think about it in that sense. I think about it from the sense of, Oh, is there a story to tell? Are there people to meet? And when I'm and I see the whole thing, and places are never as scary or as bad as you think they're going to be, like, I've been on planes where I'm like, oh boy, this is a bad idea. Like, I have, you know, like, I've been on planes where, oh no, I don't think this is a good idea. And then you get there and you're like, Oh, this isn't so bad. I can do this.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I've thought about that a lot too, just in the way that the media presents places, I would imagine that there are stories across the world about certain areas of the US that people would be afraid to come to, that we don't even blink at.
Melanie Marshall
I got this because I did this drive from Mexico up to Canada where, because I wanted to go and experience all of these places differently. And the number of people who were worried about me driving through America, and I was like, guys like, I promise you it's okay. You know, my experience is, overall, people are good, most people, a lot of people are selfish, and that includes me, right? And when you give them something else to connect to, like humanity, and when you give them the opportunity that they can see to do good, they'll take it.
Kim Meninger
That is… that brings me hope, especially at this point in history. And I think that's what's so fascinating about your message, is that intuitively, we might assume that what you've seen would lead you to this very dark conclusion about humanity and the world, yet you, that's not how you look at it. And so I really want to hear more about how you've come to your point of view.
Melanie Marshall
I mean. It's and it's not that I don't have days where I think, how can people do this? Because I have… I have days where I think, where I've lost somebody, or where I've seen some great cruelty, or sometimes when I would come back from somewhere, what I would find hardest is going to the grocery store, because I would be coming from somewhere where people were in deprivation, and I would go to some place where there were, like 20 kinds of cheese and 10 kinds of Eggo, you know/ And I would find myself kind of frozen, and I would have to, like, find a way to move into, like, it's okay that I have this. It's okay that I'm here in this place, and as long as not, it's kind of like not, as long as like, this is okay, as long as I am also sharing my gifts and being of service. And also remembering that we can, one of the things I guess I would want to share is that we can really think we're not like other people in other places, and it sort of takes away their agency and our own, like, you know. I know that you are probably way more like some of the women I've met, then you know. You're an educated woman, you're curious, you're empathetic, and so are a lot of these women, and maybe, and it doesn't matter to them if they've got 10 kinds of Eggos to choose from when they go to the grocery store, right? What does matter to them? Their families. Right? And so there are similarities, and there's agency to choose what does and doesn't matter. And that's one of the ways I've come around to my viewpoint is to not I'm trying to find the word for it to not be… It's not condescending. It's not that's not the word, but it's almost condescending. Do you know what I mean? Like, where? Like we can, we can not like the circumstance, but we can also give them the gift of, of being happy, having joy, knowing what they want, not needing to have exactly what we want, for it to be good.
Kim Meninger
Yeah. [Does that make sense?] Yes. It does, yeah, because that also assumes that our way is the only way.
Melanie Marshall
Yes, and it isn't right. We can be similar to them and go a different way, yes, yes. And I think when we get when we kind of come to a more of a play, for at least for me, when I'm able to be in a place of equilibrium like that, then I'm also able to act more, and I'm in a place where it's like, okay, and I can act and again, it doesn't mean I'm not sad. You know, I have been raising funds for a family that I know in Gaza right now, that I know personally in Gaza right now. Am I sad? Yes. Am I determined to do something? Yes, you know, am I happy that I'm able to give other people a way to do something too? Yeah, great. So it's like, I also think we have to be able to believe we can hold nuance, because I think too often when we talk about moving through uncertainty, finding optimism, it's like, oh, well, it's all great, or it's reality, yeah, and reality is light and dark, right? Like in our own lives, it is light and dark. And I don't know about you, but some of my darkest moments have been when the most love and care and vulnerability and truth of connection has come in. [Yeah, yeah, you're right.] So like, make room for the nuance.
Kim Meninger
And that's something that I don't think we do well, partly because of time, and we're all so inundated with information and stimulation from so many different sources all the time that we have oversimplified the world around us. It's either you're like me or you're this other, right? And I think one of the things that you know, I haven't had nearly the experiences that you've had, but I did have the opportunity over the last few years to lead a leadership development program for women in Southeast Asia, yes, and one of the things that I found most fascinating about that experience was that. But I find myself sitting at a table, you know, we're dressed differently, we speak different languages, we have different religions, we you know, everything about us is different, yet at our core, we are all experiencing the same struggles, where we find this joy in the same things, right? It's very similar values, and just that ability to get to that level really does put a lot of other things into perspective. And I can see that connection to the optimism that you're talking about, even though the circumstances may be dark.
Melanie Marshall
And that's right, yeah, and that and but the connection's real also like that connection, that point of connection, like one of the reasons I wanted to move out and do something different is to tell the whole story. Because, you know, the news does an important job, and I love it, and I believe in it, but if you looked at a mirror that only showed you how ugly you are, you wouldn't look right? You wouldn't look in the mirror. I wouldn't it's like, one change room, right? And trying on a bathing suit. Like, ah, you know? And like, there are so many people who are turning away, and I understand why, you know, even me, I have friends who are journalists, who are like, I don't watch the news journalists too, because it's it overwhelms us. And when we are overwhelmed, we sort of turtle and we hope that somebody, somewhere else is going to sort things out. And it's a very human response. But the problem with that is that it's not going to get sorted out in your favor. Usually, right? Like, you're going to, yeah, like, it'll get sorted but you're going to wind up somewhere else. And like, the thing is, when these women that you were working with, I will bet that you're talking about, they had joy in their lives. They were working with agency, right? They were doing things, and you were able to find things in common. [Right.] And so if we can take the lessons from how they are doing that in very difficult circumstances. And this is what I'm trying to do now. We can do anything in our lives, in dark times, in uncertainty, personal uncertainty, corporate uncertainty, you know, social uncertainty, we can do it. I really believe that, and I, I partly made this change. There was a I talk about her in this TEDx talk I gave, but I met this woman named Radha, who I met her because she was paragliding over Mosul in Iraq, and she was a divorcee. She was a teacher, and she was hilarious, and she and I just bonded right away. And she was like, you know, making jokes like a man's heart is like the wind, it changes every three seconds. And like, we had nothing in common culturally, right? We were from totally different worlds, but we got each other right? What is it like to be a woman in a man's world who sort of stands out is a little bit different, and we stayed in touch, and that connection the way she was, her, her bravery in just shining as she was, and being like, you know what I am going to live each day as myself inspired me, and she like, I had this cat that I got on. I always used to get pets on every assignment. It's like, I can't help myself. I still do and I and she would like every single picture, and we would communicate on Facebook, and she was killed by Islamic State. They killed her because she was like everything they hated, right? And, and I say that because it's not all rainbows, right? We're going to lose optimism. Hope doesn't mean we're always going to win like justice would be. She is with us, but it is about trying for the things that matter to us. And I really believe that when we are acting in service of those things, everything else kind of starts to fall away. And for me, like we will lose and we keep going. And Radha, like, you know that inspiration I do have, like, Okay, I gotta do this. Because I think, okay, I want to tell her story, and then she's still an inspiration, like she's gone, but she's still an inspiration. And that really matters to me, right? Yeah, and I don't know, you know, we talked. About imposter syndrome. I'm sure Radha had like, who am I to jump off the side of her? I'm sure we all have it. But like, but she lived, she lived as she wanted to live for as long as she could. And she took care of people. She took care of the people she cared about. She and can we not learn from that? Can we not live that way?
Kim Meninger
You're, you're so right, and I mean, most of the listening audience is not going to find themselves in that kind of a circumstances, thing, circumstance, thankfully, but thanks. Face right our own unique challenges and different ways. And one of the things that I'm thinking about as you're talking is when it comes to impostor syndrome, or any form of self-doubt, really knowing who you are and what you stand for is a powerful antidote to that, because when you are focused on what you care about, who cares what other people think right? Who cares whether, you know, I make a mistake from time to, I am so mission driven at that point that it is more important to me to do what I believe is the right thing to do than it is to try to protect my ego from, you know, from, from other people.
Melanie Marshall
Yeah, I that's that is absolutely and as somebody who has like, I just like, I describe it as like, a big black demon that occasionally gets its claws into me and kind of tries to, like, suck me back into the shadows. Like, that's how I think of my impostor syndrome. Because occasionally it is like, who are you? Who the hell are you like? You know, and I so, you know. And when it is pulling me back is when, is when I am not truly in the flow with the people I care about, with the story I care about, with the with the work that I'm doing. And that's when you I'm like in my like, I'm sure your listeners will know this one. When you feel like just tortured, right? When you feel like you're literally being tortured by the self-doubt. The more deeply I am in that feeling of service and flow, the less that demon has its claws in me. And I know I've seen that with the people whose stories I've told as well. You know, they, when they go so deeply into that it's like, wow, wow. [Yeah.] You know. And, and look, I mean, it's going to happen to all of us. We're all going to have dark nights of the soul. Where you're, I mean, it is, it is going to happen. I do think that's where it is also important to have each other. Mm, yes, is important to have somebody who is going to I have this guy who's my work dad, and who I remember once I was crying on a bus, and because I things weren't going well at work. It's very like toxic at the time, and, you know, it's like I felt like nothing I could do was enough. And I think this is probably something everyone can relate to, right? It's like I was working so hard. I was giving absolutely everything, and I had been and as a woman in foreign news, you are expected to accomplish the impossible and yet somehow, never be too tough. Never be too rough, never be too like, it's always the like, you're kind of always have to have this balance, right? And it's like, and I think I chose that. I think I, I like, found a place where I could torture myself and achieve at the same time. So I do think this was a choice. But I was having a particularly hard time. I had gone for a job that I really wanted, that I was incredibly over-qualified for actually, and they'd said to me in the feedback, we think we'd like a little bit less of a steamroller. And this was after I had won. Like, I've won. I'm not trying to be like, up myself, but like, I won like a Peabody and like a Royal Television Society Award and a BAFTA, like, I've won awards, you know, like, and, and I was so I just, and I didn't know what I was going to do, and I remember being on and so that the demon had its claws in but good, right? It's like, well, I must be nothing. And my work, Dad cookie saying to me, you're not alone in this world, Marshall, you're not alone in this world. And I do think sometimes I know we've gotta do it for ourselves, but I also think having a network of people who really see you is so key.
Kim Meninger
Yes. Yes, yes. Well, and I would say it's funny, it feels like the all of the conversations I've had this week have been leading…
Melanie Marshall
To a thread? Is there? There was always a thread, right?
Kim Meninger
Yes, exactly. And I was having a conversation yesterday with somebody who was talking about how he wants to be his own cookie, right? And [love that.], and I think that's a wonderful for us to aspire to and to really, you know, not tie all of our self-worth and, and all of our confidence to someone else, but at the same time, I think it's really important to acknowledge what you're saying, which we are. We are biologically social features. We are designed to support one another and to interact as a unit in community. And so I think it's a both-and, right? We don't want to want to continue to work on ourselves, but we don't want to give up those really powerful connections that fuel us.
Melanie Marshall
Yeah, and, and, I think the trick is to not put the power like what I did was I put the power originally. For a long time, I put the power in the hands of people who would feed, feed the fears, right? That sign, you know, on the internet, don't feed the fears. I would put it in the hands of the people who would feed the impostor syndrome. And then I think the lesson that I finally learned was to put it in the hands of the people who really saw me right. And that's like the build the team. Like there's a saying that I absolutely put into place when I was covering the, the zones I went to, you know, I don't want, you want to call them places you wouldn't want to go, which is, never go anywhere with people who don't want to come home as badly as you do. Like I was a rule I lived by, and it meant, always choose people who have, like, the same values as you on a team, right? So you don't want to go with some hot-shot who is so keen to get shot at, right? You're going to get blown up. That's basically what it means. What it means for this is you want to choose the right people, like don't, because I think we can do that unintentionally. We, we go to the we go to people who are going to reinforce the thing that we're afraid of, the thing, the wound right? So go choose the people that you would. You know, I know none of you want to go to a war zone, but go choose the people that if you were going to a war zone with, they'd be the ones right, like and, and, and you're right. You know, the more you can build yourself up. But I think also for, for me, one of the things I am now the most proud of is modeling for the next generation. Like, I'm like it, it fills me with joy. Joy, like, absolute joy if I get a Whatsapp voice message from one of my mentees telling me about how they didn't take shit, sorry, you're going to have to use the explicit label. Like, it fills me with joy when I get something where they're talking about their worth. And it fills me with joy to be able to, to tell them, you know, you have it. Like, that's amazing to me, right? I don't know. Try and do better by the next generation and model for them and again, like I'm, you know, having left, it was so scary to leave a complete identity behind on a belief, Having gotten to the point that I believed enough in me, like, I say, like, I bet a lot on myself to be like, You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna tell people what I really think, which is essentially what I'm doing now, right? And it's like, I'm gonna tell them what I really think. And then it's like, sometimes I still have these, like, 2am moments where I'm like, I bet a lot on myself, you know, and I still don't know where the dice are gonna end up and like that has been a much scarier experience than driving, you know, into Libya when Momar Gaddafi was, you know, losing power, and that was crazy and very dangerous, you know, and, but this is much more the core of my identity. That was just don't get shot.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, yeah, yes. It's interesting. I was wondering about that too. It's, yeah, it's, there's a way in which your brain adapts to what you're doing, right? And I wonder if there's something really focusing like your, your, your, all of your attention is on what's going on in this moment.
Melanie Marshall
There's a book called War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning, and it's about a guy who was a photojournalist and became a drug addict, because war was like a drug. And I don't think, I don't think it was that for me, but I think that there is this, yeah, it's like a immediate focus, right? You're like, whoo, this is my mission, and it also, it's your identity, but it's not you, it's not the it's not quite as vulnerable. And there's a vulnerability to stepping out on your own that actually I you know. Okay, so I don't think I told you this before, when I graduated university, I won this competition for internet entrepreneurs that was funded by Melinda Gates and all of these people. [You definitely didn't tell me this.] Oh, yeah, okay, I didn't tell you this one. Now this one right at the end. And it's important. It's important, because I don't regret it, but it shows where I am now versus where I was then. I won this competition. It was funded by this internet incubator, which is like for the kids listening. It was this thing once upon a time where they'd take a huge cut of your company and give you desk space, basically. But it was supposedly they were going to build your company. And I had this idea, which was really, actually, now I look back, very innovative. The tech was, didn't exist. It was from multi me, like a multimedia Huffington Post, you know, international news model, and called Hipacat. And it, which is a wool-off word, which is West African. It means eyes wide open, ahead of their time. Still a cool name. It won, and I think it partly won because I was going to be a good spokesperson, but I was supposed to win a quarter of a million dollars and all this business support, they put me on every TV program going. I said some things, I regret trying to people please, like I said, on a because they had this business program following me. And I said, God, it's this one, still, you might have to help me psychologically through this one. I said, on this business program, I've written a pretty big check with my mouth. Now let's see if my ass can cash it. Which, like as a producer, I would have marked that clip right away, right? But I was trying to make them happy, right? I was trying to make everybody happy anyway. To make a long story short, I never got the money, really. I did all this press. They never released the money. They went public, and then they went bust. [Wow.] So I wrote a big check with my mouth, and I couldn't cash it. And at the same time, I was selected by the World Economic Forum as one of their global leaders for tomorrow, because they had read my proposal and what I was trying to do with global media, and I'd won this thing, and they wanted to fet me and I was invited to Davos. [Wow.] What do you think 25-year-old me did with that information? I put on impostor syndrome like an evening dress. [Yes, I bet.] I went to Davos feeling like a complete failure. Some of my fellow some of my fellow Global Leaders for Tomorrow were also at that time, probably mostly bullshit artists, yeah, so now you're really gonna have to put me like so I think Marc Benioff. Marc Benioff was in my year. Sergey Brin was in my year. Yeah. Martin Persofsky, who's now become a bit of a nut job, I hear, but he was in my year, there were lots of very impressive people, also some really lovely guys doing incredible stuff with like AI and quantum computing now, like Jack Hitary were in my year, all these incredible people. I was so consumed with self-doubt and impostor syndrome, that instead of networking my butt off and be like, Hey, I had this great idea. They haven't given me the money. Who wants to give me the money? I thought I am just going to… I gave, I gave a speech. I gave, I mean, I still got, got to go for a few years. Actually, I gave speeches. So they got me to speak after dinner. I was fun. I sang at the, you know, parties, but I didn't take myself seriously, because I thought I'd failed. And I held on to that for 20 years. [Wow.] And it was part of the reason. I mean, I know it looks maybe hilarious to outsiders, but I it was shortly after that. I mean, I'd done my work experience at the BBC, then gone back, graduated, written the business plan. The same day I graduated. I'd won this competition, gone off, and I, you know, lost all the money, went to Davos, didn't take myself seriously. Well, Mark Benioff is making million-dollar deals off at that point nothing, but he's done very well for himself, obviously. And I went back to Canada and thought, I'm an absolute failure. I'm going to hide. I'm going to hide. I, you know, and the, the, the business program came out with my quotes all over it, I was utterly humiliated. And the BBC called me and said, Do you want to move to New York? And I said, Yes. And they said, Do you want to think about it? The same phone call. I said, No. And so it's funny, right? It turned into a global career that was everything I could dream of, incredible success, a chance to see the world and be of service in a way that I believe I was really meant to be of service. I don't think, I don't know. I don't think I would have been a good billionaire, maybe, maybe, maybe I still will be, but I don't think that was my path. However, what I did was like I made a bargain with my impostor syndrome. Does that make sense? [Yeah, it does.] And you hear that in it?
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes, yeah. And you know it just it. You are, your story is so unique. But I feel like this is there's a version of this story and so many people right, where imposter syndrome just sort of robs us of these opportunities and, and just in, you know, it's, it's so interesting, because, as I'm hearing you tell that story, I'm also mindful of the fact that throughout your whole career, in all of these, you know, conflict zones, you your attention has gone to what is, what's the positive, And where can I find the hope and the optimism, and yet, in those moments that you're describing at Davos and everything, it's like, all about, what did I do wrong? What's the right? Like, Well, how am I not worthy? Right? And so, like, the grace we give to others we do not give to ourselves.
Melanie Marshall
Yeah, and how long if I could do one thing for others now I would like, Well, I mean, I think my gift now is to try and help others to just keep moving. And I think when they do that, they when you do that, and when you train yourself to be more optimistic and more hopeful, I think grace comes with that. I really do. I think it somehow grows with that, because I know it has grown for me, because that grace that I now give myself not perfectly. It is super imperfect, but the grace I now give myself is why I did finally say, Oh, wait, I still have so much more to give. Like I'm, I'm so grateful for all of those years and that part that I stopped, that I arrested, that part I had to give that I stopped. I'm not done. I want to do it. And if I hadn't found the grace you're talking about, I wouldn't be here with you right now, however imperfectly, right, even if I get off this call with you and I go and think, Oh, why did I say that? And why did they you know, even though I do a little of that, that's okay, right? That's okay, fine, and I'll go breathe. Look at the can I seriously recommend nature to everybody, like, that's another one, right? It's like, I've done it all over the world. That's another one, stars. They are available everywhere.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and you know, I think too it's important to recognize that you're, you're a different person, much younger, with, you know, different life experience. And I think that's the thing. How do we take the lesson without perpetually beating ourselves up, right? [Yeah.] You and to live this extraordinary life and to have all of these amazing experiences. And you know, while certainly can look back in hindsight and say, I would have done this differently had I had the chance to do it over again, then we miss the opportunity to embrace and savor all of the, the other things that life has brought us.
Melanie Marshall
Yes, I think that is so key. And I wonder what you think is what unlocks that? What do you think unlocks that for most people, the what is the key there to give us that?
Kim Meninger
I think a lot of it is a deliberate practice, that when we start to go to that beating ourselves up place, we substitute that with a but what can I learn from this, and what will I do differently going forward? Right? It's a, it's a frame, and I think so much of what you're describing is what is the frame we choose to put around the experience that we're having at any given moment. And we are imperfect creatures. The more we you know, the more try to be perfect, the more energy we waste and the more heartache we experience. And so instead of just criticizing ourselves, to instead say, Okay, why is this affecting me, the way that it's affecting me? What's the value here that I want to hold on to, right? Like, what's the what's the choice I want to make differently the next time I find myself in this situation, and then it becomes a lesson, and not like this catastrophic moment that defines us.
Melanie Marshall
I love that, I love that. I love that as having a frame. I think that's so powerful for, for me, thank you and, and for your listeners and, and it's okay if it takes time, and I think also, to like for me. I do think I, I now count the I carried the weight of the mistakes for so long, and somehow forgot sometimes, which is hilarious, considering I even talk to people about like, you know how important it is to carry gratitude. Usually gratitude for the present, because I'm all About taking stock of the present, being in the now, but like, my life as being like, honestly, like, I know you're talking about it being scary, but like, I don't think of that when I remember my life. I think I was on the phone with somebody I know the other day in Jerusalem, and we all we were taught. We were talking about some of the tough stuff, and we're talking about, you know, helping people and just different things and but we were talking about, like, laughter, and we were talking about jokes. And her little girl, who knows me really well, was getting on to want to see my dog and like, what I remember from most of my different postings and life and experiences is that like it is the connection, it's the joy, it is the moments of wonder. Like that is what I genuine, generally remember, and when it sucks sometimes and it does, then, you know, that's when I got care from a small, tiny animal. And occasionally I, like, you know, need somebody to tell me, you know, you're not alone in this world, Marshall.
Kim Meninger
I could truly spend hours continuing this conversation. There's so much that you bring to this, to this discussion, to this world, to this topic. I love talking to you and but in the interest of time, I want to for everyone else who's having the same reaction that I am, I want to give you a chance to tell us how we can get more of you. Where can people find you if they're interested in staying connected?
Melanie Marshall
Well, you just come on over my house. We'll sit on the porch. We'll have a chat. If you can find me, I'll make the tea. Well, I am out there speaking and giving workshops. So you can get in touch on my LinkedIn or on my website, which will be in the show notes, taking bookings for fall and winter 25 and 26 and I also have a YouTube channel where I just put up videos and stories. And you're welcome to have a look and a listen.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. They will definitely be in the show notes. And thanks again. Mel, thank you for, for being you. I really love the message that you're bringing to the world is so timely and just so grateful to you.
Melanie Marshall
Yeah, thank you for doing this. Kim, I really appreciate it.
