Finding Joy at Work and in Life

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore what it takes to create a fulfilling professional life while also protecting our well-being. My guest this week is Bree Groff, a seasoned consultant, transformation expert and author of Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously).

Bree shares her unconventional career journey from teaching middle and high school math and physics, to acting, to consulting and culture change and ultimately to authoring a book about joy at work. Along the way, she opens up about identity shifts, learning to slow down and the hard-earned perspective that comes from life’s toughest seasons, including caring for her mother through terminal illness.

Together we talk about:

• The messy, non-linear path to a fulfilling career

• Why “future you” is stronger and more resourceful than you think

• How to create more joy in your workdays without ignoring hard realities

• Practical strategies for setting boundaries, pacing yourself and making space for what matters most

About My Guest

Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of "Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously)". She has spent her career guiding C-suite leaders at companies such as Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, Calvin Klein, Target, and Hilton through periods of complex change. She is a Senior Advisor to the global consultancy SYPartners, previously served as the CEO of NOBL Collective, a consultancy pioneering new ways of working, and she holds an MS in Learning and Organizational Change from Northwestern University. Bree lives in New York City with her husband and daughter.

~

Connect with Bree:

Book: www.breegroff.com/book

Substack: https://breegroff.substack.com/

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/bree-groff

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bree_groff/

~

Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:

Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.

Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group

Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.

Join the Facebook group.

Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.

Connect on LinkedIn

Websites: https://kimmeninger.com

Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Bree, it's so great to have you here today. I can't wait to jump in, and I would love to start with just inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bree Groff 

Sure. Well, thanks for having me, Kim. Um, for anyone listening, Kim and I have ketchups every once in a while, and they're always so fun. So now we get to record one. Um, so me. I. My name is Bree. I live in New York with a husband and 10-year-old daughter. Biggest news in my professional life is I wrote my first book, which launched this summer, in July, called Today was fun, a book about work, seriously, and before that, I spend much of my career in consulting, transformation, culture, employee experience consulting. I'm a senior advisor to the company SY Partners, former CEO of Nobel collective. Before that, I had a career as a high school math and physics teacher, but that's all the professional stuff underneath that, I sometimes have really stressful days, and I watch reality TV in bed with takeout. And some days I don't quite make it to making my daughter breakfast, and so she runs out the door with a banana. So it's all a very human work in progress. I you know, people say you write the book you most need to read. And so my book is about, well, joy at work, which actually I do have a lot of fun at work, but also about all things balance and taking the time to love our days. So, so that's all very joyful work in progress, too. So that's me.

Kim Meninger 

Cool. I appreciate you keeping it real with us. I can totally relate to the watching reality TV.

Bree Groff

Yeah.

Kim Meninger 

And I actually learned something new about you just now, because I do not think, at least, I didn't remember that you had that earlier career of teaching. And so I want to get into the book, but before we do that, I want to take a little bit of a tour of your career, because those are some pretty big shifts, and I'd love to hear more about how you made those decisions. Kind of what was it like for you to move out of teaching and into this consulting world? So can you talk us through some of the some of the decision points?

Bree Groff 

Yeah, yeah. I had some adventures through my 20s and early 30s in terms of career shifts. But my first should, my very first job out of college was teaching middle school math. I had did a teaching internship or like a fellowship. My parents were both educators. My father was an elementary school principal. My mom was a kindergarten teacher. I got a degree in biology and psychology, and I was like, I don't know what I want to do. Like, I didn't want to go to med school or anything, but I was like, teaching, sounds fun, you know? And when you're a kid, you think, like, what are the professions you could be a teacher, a doctor or firefighter comes to mind. I'm like, Yeah, so I had that first career, I mean, to get into, like, the messy, pixelated version of it. I spent one year teaching seventh-grade math, and then decided I was in LA. So I said, you know, I think I'd like to be an actor instead. I'm surrounded by that crowd. And so I spent a year being a very unsuccessful actor, tutoring and hostessing. After that, I was like, Do you did you know that it's kind of hard to break in to being a famous actor? It's not the easy, straightforward career path you might think it is. So I went back to teaching. So then I taught high school physics, high school math. I loved those days. I mean, it sounds so Pollyanna-ish, but at the end of the day on Friday, I would even feel like, oh, I have to wait two days till I get to see these kids again. And I loved it. I mean, the only reason I moved on was really for the same reason lots of people move on, which is a boss I didn't really like. After teaching in the classroom, I became an instructional coach. I founded and led an innovation department within a school. And then that's when I had this amazing mentor leave for another role, and somebody else come, came, and I was like, maybe I'll do something else. So from there, I moved into innovation consulting. From there, I moved into more ways of working, Future-of-Work, kind of consulting. And that's sort of like the squiggly path of it.

Kim Meninger 

And so what inspired you to write the book you mentioned we write the book that we need to read ourselves, right? So what's your relationship to joy in the workplace?

Bree Groff

Yeah, so part of it, I felt like I had down pat. And. Part of it, I felt like I really needed to learn as I was writing the book, I've always had a good time at work. I'm a person who, like, always liked school, growing up super nerdy, always had my hand up in class first, like, oh, I want to learn about this. Maybe, you know, I'm just that person. I've generally liked all of my jobs because I could find something joyful within them, even if I didn't like all of a job. I've liked some of it and leading teams, I felt like I always had an instinct for how to create a team environment where people are enjoying their days and doing great work and just feeling good about how they're spending Monday through Friday. I think that the thing I needed to learn was particularly around so the book is separated into two sections. The first section is about how to find more joy in your weekdays, and the second section is how to make sure that work doesn't overrun your life. And I think that was the part that I really have learned along the way, like it's, I always say work is like an invasive species. It'll just, like, spread across your calendar. It'll take whatever it can get its hands on, and especially when my daughter was young, I would find myself overworking because work, it felt like just asked for it, and I wanted to do a good job. And frankly, I was having fun. I did enjoy my work, and so I wanted to be working. It was really only when I started to struggle with the opportunity cost. So when I was young and single and child free, there was little opportunity cost. I see my friends on the weekend, but then having a child needing to, like, oh, I need to, like, probably exercise properly. I'm getting older. Like, I just like, maybe that's the thing I should be doing when there started to become more things in my life that raised an importance for me, I started to have to figure out, how do I both maintain joy at work, my dedication to doing a good job and realizing that I will always be more important to my family than I am to my employer, and I think that's true for all of us.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, that's a really important, important realization. And I love the point that you're making, because a lot of times the conversation centers around not enjoying the work, or feeling maybe like this isn't the right fit, or I'm under all this stress and pressure that's causing me to doubt myself, etc, right? But sometimes it is what you just described, which is we really do enjoy the work we're fortunate enough to do work that's meaningful to us. You know, we feel a sense of fulfillment with it, and setting those boundaries and kind of shifting our priorities can be really hard, and I see this coming from personal experience, because I've been in the camp of not feeling like my job was the right fit and, you know, dreading Monday, but now that I'm fortunate enough to have my own business, that is one of the biggest struggles I have, is I want to work because I love it. I want to work because it challenges, and I want to be challenged, but that opportunity costs can get really high. So are there things that you have found that have helped you to keep that perspective, or practices that you've put in place to kind of balance things out a bit?

Bree Groff 

Yeah, for sure. There's sort of the mindset shift that I have to keep in mind, and then there's some tactical practices the mindset shift I've had to change parts of how I identify as a professional, the being in consulting and client service. For ages, I used to identify very much as an incredibly prompt responder. I would never let 24 business hours go by without responding to an email like that, it would be sacrilegious. Like, why would you do that in client service? And I think I've had to adopt not across the board, like, I will still be responsive to a client if they need something right away, but I've had to accept an identity of breeze, sometimes slow to respond, and you know that'll be to friends, sometimes it'll be to colleagues or contacts where I can tell it's not urgent that I get back to them. But I think I had been holding myself to a very high standard, and I realized I, people in my life who I think of it as professional and competent and kind, who I just know like, Oh, they're slow to respond. They'll get back to me in a few days. And I'm like, shoot, if they can be that person, be I can be that person and and further, I try to remember too. Whenever I get an email and respond right away, I feel good about myself. But sometimes, when I send an email and someone responds to me right away, I think, Hey, I just put that ball in your court. Like, stop it. I was supposed to be done with that email thread, like, for a day or two at least, and now you want me to like, Oh, now I have to, like, reconsider this the sports I remember. Look, we can all benefit from the tennis match being slowed down a little bit. So that's one thing I keep in mind. And then practically, because I realized that work will take over my whole calendar if I let it I'm much more diligent now religious about it, even, of putting things that are important to me, my family, my health, I put those on the calendar first as far out as I can get them. So if my daughter has a day off school, I sometimes will try and spend that day with her, as opposed to letting her fester in her room or sending her off to a camp like that's actually kind of a precious day. So if I can, I'll put that on my calendar. I'll look at the DOE calendar, put it on months in advance so that I can try and save that day. Doctor's appointments. I book out far in advance, my exercise I try and put on my calendar, because I know I'm much more likely to uphold those things that are important to me if they're there first, I'm never going to cancel a client meeting because I want to go exercise. Like that could never cross my mind. But if I have exercise on the calendar and I'm scheduling a meeting with a client, I'll be much more likely to say, Oh, hey, can we do that in the afternoon instead of that morning? I have a conflict. So that's my, my best into the weeds trick.

Kim Meninger 

That reminds me of the excuse me, like the big rocks, right? Big rocks where, you know, if you fill up your, your jar with all the sand, right? You don't have room for the big rocks. And I think that that's, that's a way in which you're making me think about it. Because if you know, I want to prioritize time with my family, or want to prioritize my own health, get that on there first. And like you said, You'll work around it. But we're always very quick to say, I guess I don't really need, you know, I guess I don't really need to exercise this week. I'll let, I'll let everything else come first, and then it just before, you know, it months have gone by and we haven't done anything for ourselves.

Bree Groff 

Oh, my God. I mean, it's so easy for that. Like, I am a work in progress, like anybody on this front like I've just come back, I was we were talking about I was out of the office, traveling for three weeks, and then I was away last week giving a talk. And I always try and tell myself when I'm getting back into a routine, I just stack one good habit at a time. I never try and make myself do all of them at once. So, so, so first this week, for example, I tried to get my supplements back on track. So I tried to take some vitamin D and magnesium every day, because I read all the research. You're supposed to do that. But you know, I never liked taking a pill, which is annoying, and I think it's fine. So first, I get that back on track for a few days. So, like, I have an exercise this week, but I'm going to exercise Thursday and Friday. I'm like, okay, that can come later this week. You know, one thing at a time, I try and tell myself most things most days. Bree like, if I'm, if I, you know, some days I'm not going to do all 10 things on my list, but if I do like five of them, it's fine. So part of it's just letting myself off the hook, I suppose,

Kim Meninger 

cutting yourself some slack, right? Because, I mean, we are all under tremendous pressure. We've got to-do lists a mile long. There's so many things that we tell ourselves we should be doing, right? And so even going back to the heart of your book and the idea of finding joy and having fun, it's like, how can we possibly be having fun if we're constantly beating ourselves up for not doing the things that we don't have time for? Right? So it just feels like we have set ourselves up to constantly be berating ourselves and not just letting go of some of that pressure and going with the flow of life.

Bree Groff 

Yeah. I mean, there's this stoic concept you might know it of suffering twice, and it's referring to anticipation. So if you are worried about something coming up, you're. Worried about something going wrong, you're suffering with the worrying. And then if that thing does go wrong, then you're suffering in the moment, but you've suffered twice, and one was optional. And so I think of that also conversely, in terms of how we ruminate after the fact, like after we have a day where we didn't get much done. Look, we didn't get much done. So we're already suffering whatever the laundry is not done. But if I'm then going to ruminate on the fact that, oh, Bree, why didn't you just do the laundry, you feel so much better when you do it. I can't believe that you were lazy. What did you get done? You just watched TV. Now I'm suffering for no reason, and I think we tell ourselves the story that we do that in order to train ourselves or like well, if I don't get mad at myself, I'll never learn in the way that we think of like children some in some times. But I find that just not to be true, that I don't need to scold myself in order to learn. I know that I like it when I do the laundry.

Kim Meninger 

It's intrinsically motivating, right? It's motivating unto itself.

Bree Groff 

So you see, let it go and you try again tomorrow. So that's me at my at my best and most forgiving.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, and I think you're right. I mean, I think there's a way in which we think we're holding ourselves accountable, because if we don't, then we'll become really lazy and complacent and we won't get anything done. But like you said, most of us have that internal motivation to want to live in a clean house or do good work, right? We don't really need to be whipped into doing that. And so I think that that's a really important realization. And I also think there's a part of it that is just the hard wiring of our brains where we feel like, you know, our brains are always trying to keep us safe, and we're worried that something's going to go, you know, horribly wrong if we're not doing the things that we're supposed to. And so sometimes what I will do is I will just like, if I, let's say I go for a few days without doing something that I said I was going to do, I will actually put it on my calendar as a meeting with myself, and then when my brain starts to shame me for not doing it, I'll be like, You know what? You don't have to remind me, I've got my calendar. It's accounted for, right? Like, one go. So it's kind of this, like warped sense of trying to be helpful.

Bree Groff 

Oh, my God, it's so true, like I so as you're talking about, I think this is a psychological technique. I think it was that book The happiness trap I read many years ago, where I first learned about the concept of talking to your brain as a separate entity. Very mindfulness. Ask, like brain, thank you for the anxiety you are trying to protect me. You are trying to guarantee that I'm going to be happy with myself. And also, I got this as you say, it's on my calendar. I know a friend recently said to me he does the same, but with his ancestors in that, like so, much of our modern anxiety is wired to our threat detection abilities from the days of your when we were worried about bears and snakes. So say thank you, ancestors for living procreating so that I could be here today. I understand I have inherited your anxiety. So be it. I will take it as part of the package of being a human who's alive in this modern day. So, wow, that was cute, too.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, sometimes just naming it definitely puts it into perspective and dilutes some of its power. Yes. So talk a little bit about the, the first part of the book too, because I think that we live in a world that's very heavy. There's a lot of fear in workplaces these days. I see it all the time. People are afraid of losing their jobs. People are afraid of making a mistake, of saying the wrong thing. We're just under constant pressure. And I wonder how fun even fits into work anymore. Yeah. How do we fit fun into the mix when there's so everything feels so high stakes and so like, just negative?

Bree Groff 

Yeah, you know. And I think this has to do a lot with what we were talking about, the feeling of being stressed out is protective and beneficial in a way, and I think sometimes we let ourselves run away with that feeling when it's actually not strictly necessary. So at a fundamental level, I'll often say we don't get paid because work is painful and people wouldn't do it otherwise. We only get paid because we create value. Yeah, the pain is optional. The stress is optional. If you're creating value, that's enough. And when we think about what it takes to create value, it's usually being creative, making something, serving someone, doing it alongside, hopefully, colleagues that you enjoy. Stress sometimes comes into play because we feel like, if we're stressed, we are vigilant, we are aware. We are somehow better scaffolded against any risk that surrounds us. But oftentimes it's not helpful, and actually we can do just as a good, just as good a job without the stress in some ways, because stress actually harms our ability to do, to do good work and be a good teammate. So you can imagine one person who is operating at work in defensiveness mode, like we can't put that in the deck. Someone's going to be upset. We can't send that triple check it, you know now you're in you're on your back foot, versus someone who's in a mindset of play and creativity and trust of like. Let's put the bold idea out there. Let's invite so and so into the meeting. Let's be generative here and experiment that requires a sense of safety, which, if you're not given that safety by the external environment, sometimes you have to just declare that you feel this way, especially because a lot of what we call what, a lot of what causes a stress we can't control. So, for example, all jobs are insecure. There's no reason to believe otherwise, right? Any company could go under. No leader should guarantee that your job is safe. We should not feel that our jobs are safe, and yet we can't go 40 years in a career in a state of fear in the same way that we're all going to die. But yet, it is not super helpful to work. Wake up worried about that all day long. A little reminder now and then he's gonna kick you in the butt. So you know, I'll say like, do I want to work at my insecure job and be stressed out? Or, do I want to work at my insecure job and maybe try and have a good day while I'm at it? So when I think about fun it is. It's the deep acknowledgement that there's a lot that's not okay about our world, about workplaces, about whatever your market or your business, and yet we're here today. It's an amazing thing that we are humans and alive and awake, and here on this planet, what would it take to enjoy it amidst all of the chaos? I had a friend who she was in the army and fought in Iraq on the front lines, and she would always tell me about the days when they would play poker while, like sitting around, because even though you're at war, if you got an hour, enjoy yourself like I think that was her point. That was her takeaway, that even amidst all of the chaos, we still have to find a way to allow ourselves the joy, to savor the joy, because a lot of times it's there for the taking. We sometimes feel too nervous. It's like, Oh, should I not be smiling? This is a stressful time when, in fact, no. Because, you know, if the alternative is crying, like, maybe we should just laugh, like, maybe that's actually the way we get through all of the crises.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, this really resonates with me too, because I've lived a life with a lot of excess anxiety. I am definitely one of those people who has subconsciously or sometimes consciously, internalized the idea that if I worry about it in advance, then I'll be more prepared to handle it when it actually happens. And I have been more explicit with myself. I've been really trying to have conversations with my brain as that external entity as you're describing, yeah, like, hey, look, you know what? If, if the thing that I'm worried about happens, I'm going to be devastated. There's nothing that's going to prepare me for that right like there. It's going to be awful. So I'm just going to enjoy right now, yeah, and let that. If there's anything that I can productively do to mitigate the risk of something bad happening, then I think that's the responsible thing to do. But if it's entirely out of my hands and it's imaginary to begin with, right? Like I'm going to focus on what is good right now and then, just let that time come and I think, you know, it goes back. Some of the things that we've been talking about of like giving yourself permission to not be on high alert at all times because you can't, you can't function that way and stay healthy emotionally and physically, absolutely.

Bree Groff 

Yeah, I, like a lot of the impetus for the book, and, and for my own learning was and I write about it, was supporting my mother before she passed away, so she was given a terminal cancer diagnosis and lived about nine months before she passed. And during that time, I was with her every day. I'm an only child. I was devoted to her care. My father had Alzheimer's already, still does, and I think what I learned is like I felt like I am in it. This is the like, the worst possible diagnosis she could get. And still, I had to find ways to pace myself like I had my focus could not be on saving her. That was the oncologist job, and they would do what they could. My job was to savor her like my job was to plan. I planned a brunch for our family every weekend. I saw her every day, and we made smoothies. When she was at the hospital. I would come home and I would tell my husband, like, make me a cocktail, Brad, I need that. And I need some reality TV. I was watching Great British Bake Off, binge-watching that at the time, which is a really great antidote to existential grief. I will tell you, watching people bake things, because I had to find ways, like pockets of joy amidst the worst possible scenario. And I think I learned too, like I was constantly worried, well, what happens when she dies? What happens when she's not here? And I thought, you know, like, I can trust enough in future Bree, like future Bree, is going to be strong enough to handle it. And I know this because I in this moment, am future Bree to some past self who might have thought, what if my mother got a terrible diagnosis, and here I am now dealing with it. And so sometimes that's my other brain trick. I just say, like future breeze got it. Future Bree is somehow stronger and wiser. Future Bree will show up when future Bree is needed. Right now, my job is to drink this cocktail and watch the Great British Bake Off. And that's it. That's, that's all of it. It's the way I learned to pace myself through a storm.

Kim Meninger 

Well, in the that future version of yourself is a really great way to zoom out, because we do get so tangled up in the details of what's going on right now, and we lose perspective. And I think, you know, one of the things that I think about a lot when it comes to confidence and confidence building is, there's this misconception that confidence is fearlessness, right? Confidence is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna own that room, and I'm gonna feel great doing it. And I believe that confidence is self-trust, and it's exactly what you're talking about. It's, it's the belief that no matter what happens, I can handle it because I have repeatedly handled all of other challenges that have come my way. And this one might feel new, this one might feel really bad, but I have overcome lots of obstacles to get to where I am today, and I have the ability. I may not like it, it may not go perfectly, it may it may make me emotional, but I can do it. And I think that those kinds of reminders are really important, especially as we're talking about that natural tendency to just want to keep ourselves armed and ready for whatever might come next.

Bree Groff 

Yeah. And I love the reframe around what courage and bravery and confidence looks like, because I've always found that to be the same. Like, to me, it's never felt like having my chest puffed up and been like, yeah, I got this gonna crush it's always been like, Oh, I'm sobbing on the way to the hospital to see my mom like but this is what bravery looks like. It like you. You take a picture of me and you'd be like this person, not very brave or confident. But it was to me, it was like allowing myself to feel those emotions. Not give two shits about what the taxi driver care like was thinking of me, and go and do it anyway, and go see my mom anyway and show up nonetheless. At Yeah, I think we do a disservice when we think, like, if you were to Google confidence, you you know you'd see, you'd see, like, 10,000 images of someone looking standing in their power pose. But I think it's off. It's not that. And so when we feel. Like, scared and are crying and are shaking. You know, is the most like, visible external appearance of what looks like, not confidence. But sometimes it is, like, I'm very pro crying myself because, like, sometimes that's what my body needs to do to release and you just like, keep going anyway, despite all of those feelings.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, and I think it's a it's another reminder that life is really complex, and that lots of things are true at the same time, and that you know, you could be, you know, in this horribly painful scenario that you're describing, of being with your mother, you know, in a terminal diagnosis, and caring for a child who's growing and you're loving to see like reach the next milestone in their lives and working on a challenging work project and right So like our, our brain is really capable of experiencing multiple things at once, and so remembering that too, so that we don't get swallowed.

Bree Groff 

Yeah, one thing, right? And I think too, there's, like, there's upsides to any tragedy as well. Like, even with my mom, okay, I would never have been like, Oh, look at all the silver lining of this cancer day. But it was like, Oh, we thought this money needed to last 20 more years. Surprise, we are dance dining at the fanciest New York restaurants like this money, if it doesn't have to go a long time, it's going to give us a good time. You know, like, there's always ways to say, like, I'm, I'm gonna make the feature out of the bug. Like, I would never have taken nine months off of work to go hang out with my mom every day. Like, what it just would not compute, right? But like, but I did, and I got all those days with her, like that was a real feature. So not to say anybody should be like, Oh, think of this lucky, terrible, life changing diagnosis, but in any rough time, like, especially at work, like, oh, there's so much work and I can't keep up, but like, oh, but actually, like, is there a lot of income coming in. Like, that's pretty awesome, you know? Or like, oh, I have no clients right now. There's not a lot of income coming in. But, like, how cool is it that you can take a nap for an hour in the middle of the afternoon because you are self-employed, and the clients will come back. And I don't know, maybe it's my like, Die Hard optimist finding ways, because there's always some.

Kim Meninger 

Well, I think about it too, is it's all about where we choose to put our attention. And I think, you know, for all the reasons we've been talking about, our brains will naturally be drawn to the negative, because that's where the potential threats lie. That's where it feels like, Oh, I've, you know, I'm in survival mode now. I gotta keep you safe from this thing. But like you said, you know, our ancestors were fighting much different threats than we are today, and so to just consciously remind ourselves that we can shift our attention to the Silver Linings whenever we want, right? And, you know, it doesn't make the, the threats or the, the challenges any less painful, but it gives us a way of staying in perspective and just sort of balancing out what we're thinking about or how we're approaching our lives. And that's where I think, I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but I think that's why fun is such an important part of the journey, because at the end of our lives, we're not going to look back and be like, Oh, thank God. I worried as much as I did.

Bree Groff 

Thank goodness for that. All of my anxiety. Yeah, I like win at cortisol levels. That was a real, yeah, exactly. We're gonna look back and think, like, Did I have some good laughs with good people? Did I savor the moments that were on offer to me, all of the joys? Did I pick my head up from the grind of life enough to look around and take it all in did I not speed through or anesthetize myself with all of the things that needed to get done? Yeah, I tried to remember all of that. It's always a work in progress. But yeah, that is ultimately what I hope to look back on.

Kim Meninger 

Bree, I could keep talking to you all day, but I think that's such a great note to wrap up on, and I want to ask you, for anyone listening who wants more of you who wants to follow you get your book. Where can they find you?

Bree Groff 

Sure, yes. So come hang out at my website. It's Bree Groff dot com or B, R, E, E, G, R, O, F, F dot com. From there, you can find the book to buy. I hope you love it. You can also sign up for my Substack newsletter, and then LinkedIn, Instagram also good.

Kim Meninger 

Well, I'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. And thank you so much for being here. This has been such a fun conversation and such an inspirational one as well. So thank you for being here and for what you’re doing.

Bree Groff 

Oh, thank you for having me. It was fun.