The Wisdom of Ignorance
- Kim Meninger
- 28 minutes ago
- 24 min read
In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we explore a counterintuitive but empowering idea: what if not knowing something is not a weakness but an advantage? My guest this week is Alan Gregerman, innovation consultant and author of The Wisdom of Ignorance. He invites us to rethink impostor syndrome by viewing not knowing as the very thing that fuels creativity, innovative thinking and meaningful change.
Alan argues that breakthroughs are far more likely when we approach problems with humility, curiosity and a willingness to see the world with new eyes. He encourages his clients to leave the office, explore the world and pay attention to what they see. Alan shares how changing environments expands our thinking, how teams can benefit from “enlightened ignorance” and why leaders who model humility unlock more creativity and engagement in others.
About My Guest
Alan Gregerman is an internationally renowned authority on business strategy, innovation, and the hidden potential of grownups who has been called “one of the most original thinkers in business today” and “the Robin Williams of business consulting.”
As the president and chief innovation officer of Washington, D.C.-based consultancy VENTURE WORKS, a best-selling author, sought-after keynote speaker, and community volunteer he focuses on helping companies and organizations unlock the genius in all of their people in order to deliver the most compelling value to their customers. He is also the founder of Passion for Learning, an award-winning nonprofit that teaches girls technology skills as a key to life and career success.
His work has been featured in over 250 leading publications and media outlets in the U.S. and in other countries including the Wall Street Journal, NPR, CNN, The Economic Times, Business Week, Dagens Industri, and Fast Company and his writing, speaking, and teaching has informed and hopefully inspired over 700,000 people.
His three previous books—The Necessity of Strangers, Surrounded by Geniuses, and Lessons from the Sandbox—challenge conventional thinking about people, the world around us, what it means to be remarkable, and where brilliant ideas come from. His new book, “The Wisdom of Ignorance: Why Not Knowing Can Be the Key to Innovation in an Uncertain World,” provides a powerful formula for making a difference in a world moving super-fast.
Fun? fact…In March 2021, I had a rare and remarkable stroke and lost the ability to see and speak. It happened during dinner with my family and was a very clear reminder that we all live in an uncertain world. Fast forward and after eighteen months of speech, vision, and occupational therapy I am doing great, traveling, climbing mountains, kayaking, walking our dogs, and speaking with audiences around the world. Definitely grateful!
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Connect with Alan:
Website: www.alangregerman.com
Email: innovate@venture-works.com
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome Alan. I've been looking forward to this conversation. I can't wait to dive in, and I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Alan Gregerman
Oh, great. No, I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I run an innovation consulting firm. That's what I do, and I've done it for more years than I'll mention. But since your viewers can't see me, or listeners can't see me, they won't know I have some gray hair. What hair I've left is gray. I have been an innovation consultant for a long time. I originally thought I would be a professor, and I didn't enjoy being a doctoral student. Thought there was a lot of politics at a university, and so I, in my free time, volunteered and worked as a consultant to a group of entrepreneurs in Detroit who were trying to turn their businesses around. They were trying to figure out how to create a niche and be valuable to their customers. And I enjoyed working with them a lot, and I struggled with my dissertation. I did finish, I struggled with it, and so I realized I was better off out there, kind of working with folks, you know. And for the last umpteen years, I have been kind of writing books and consulting with companies around how they create value for people and how they do new things. And the new things part is important, and we'll talk about that, I'm sure, because it gets to the heart of what I think about when I think about imposter syndrome.
Kim Meninger
Yes, and I'm really excited, because I think you bring a really interesting and important perspective to the conversation around imposter syndrome, which may feel even somewhat counterintuitive to people. So I'd love to ask you to share a little bit about your book.
Alan Gregerman
Okay, good. So here's the basic idea I have, and that's why I hope it's kind of engaging and inspiring to everybody who's listening. But the book is called The Wisdom of ignorance, and it's all about the power of not knowing stuff, as opposed to knowing stuff. And so the fundamental idea, and this idea is based on my work with for over 30 years, with 400 companies around the world. But the fundamental idea is, if we know a lot about something, we can make it better. If we don't know anything about something, we have a chance to create a breakthrough. And so let's step back from that, because it really frames my view of the notion of imposter syndrome, because I believe that we're all imposters, and that that's actually a really good thing, because it challenges us to say the world is moving fast. If I want to have impact, I need to do new things. I need to learn some new things, you know? So a lot of times people get frustrated. I work with lots of executives and they say, Well, you know, I really wish I was better at this, or knew that, or whatever the case is. And I say, actually, it doesn't matter. What's more important is that you're committed to figuring out how to be awesome at something, and if you are, then you bring your team together. And we say, we actually don't know the answer. We're all imposters, but together, we're going to figure out something remarkable. And so I feel like the a fast-moving world is like a level playing field for people who take initiative.
Kim Meninger
Yes, I'm so glad you said that, because I think one of the things I think about a lot as a, a trigger of imposter syndrome. And you know, part of what holds us back in our thinking is that we tend to assume that there's one right way to do something right, that there's like an established way that we either haven't learned or that we're doing wrong, and that's why we're imposters, whereas you're talking about what I often think about, just The world looks very different today than it did before, and it's going to continue to do so. So if we're just looking to apply the old ways of doing things, if we're being perfectionistic about old solutions, that we're not actually innovating, that we're not actually solving the problems of today.
Alan Gregerman
Well, so that's great. So your point is really kind of it's all around us. So there's only one way to provide a taxi cab experience, right? No, not exactly, you know, because two friends who knew nothing about the cab business couldn't find a taxi in Paris, and so they said to themselves, isn't there like a technology out there, GPS or GIS technology that enables two disparate kind of points to kind of be brought together, someone with a car and someone who needs a ride. That was the start of Uber. So I think your point is well taken. There's actually a zillion ways to solve almost every challenge. I mean, there are better ways than others, but the reality is we need to be the ones who keep coming up with new and better ideas, because the world kind of demands it. It's not like we've solved every problem out there. So it's not like all the people who aren't imposters. I think that's a small group, but it's not like every. Anybody out there has figured out how to do the best way of doing something, you know, there's always going to be a better way. And there are so many challenges and opportunities that require us to be brilliant and different, that now's the time to kind of think in new ways. I mentioned an example with GIS because just so your listeners know I have a PhD, but it's not in anything related to psychology. I actually have PhD in geography, and so I am sharing ideas based on being a geographer, but based on actually being kind of keenly interested in the fact that there are ideas all around the world that could help us to be brilliant. It's way more important to find ideas and be brilliant than it is to lament that I just not qualify. We're all qualified to solve problems that haven't been solved yet.
Kim Meninger
So can we talk a little bit more about that? Because I'd love to hear how you advise people who just have that sort of limiting belief that they're not, that they're not qualified, not capable of doing something, and you're describing that the, the newness of it, right, the ignorance, as you say in your book, as an advantage. Can we break that down a little bit?
Alan Gregerman
Oh, yeah. So here, well, let me step back and share one idea that might be surprising to people. I'm guessing it's surprising to most people in organizations, and it's what I call the 99% rule. And the 99% rule is simply that 99% of all new ideas are based on somebody else's thinking or something that someone finds in nature. So if that's the reality, then why would we sit as imposters with a blank sheet of paper struggling to solve a problem? So our boss says, Okay, look at all of you. I really need you to think better. Can you turn on the part of your brain that's the creative part and come up with a new idea? In fact, if I want to come up with a brilliant idea, I actually leave the office and go in search of brilliant ideas in all different walks of life. So now let's think about this. I come to work I'm afraid I can't solve the problem. I don't have to. I can either sit there and lament that, or I can actually get up and wander around and look for ideas and inspiration and then use those as the starting point for being brilliant. So the reality is, I have no excuse for not taking a fresh look at something, because they're fresh looks everywhere around me. So what I do with customers is we actually leave their office. That's the starting point of every single assignment I have is we leave the office and look for brilliant ideas. We don't even think about their problem or their challenge. We simply try and think about what's out there that's brilliant. And how can that spark my own best thinking to be brilliant? And then we use that as the starting point for thinking differently. Everyone who's listening to your podcast is capable of doing that. The challenge is, I believe the opposite of kind of imposter syndrome. I believe people who may think they're imposters hide behind what they already know, and what they already know isn't sufficient to solve the problems they have, and so they believe, Oh, I'm not worthy, or I'm not capable. And I believe it's because you're stuck in the mindset of what you know, and you're hiding behind the fact that maybe I rose too high and I'm not capable. We're all capable. Just get out there and make it happen.
Kim Meninger
I love that there's, there's so much wisdom to what you're talking about, of getting out there. I mean, first of all, you're absolutely right. It shifts your perspective, and you're able to see brilliance in ways that you may not have noticed before. But I also think there's something really powerful about turning your attention away from your own inner critic, like when you're sitting there listening to that voice that's telling you that you're not good enough, that you can't do it, it, it. Your brain is looking for evidence to support that, right?
Alan Gregerman
Oh, yeah, no, you're right. But what if you're telling yourself you're not good enough at doing something that shouldn't be done the way you're thinking, you're not good enough to do it anyway, good enough to do something new. But you have to reframe your mindset, and you have to be willing to get out and say, That's okay, I don't know the answer, but actually, nobody knows the best answer. We're going to go out and figure it out. Now, I believe we're all capable of doing something remarkable. Let me give you. I mean, there's like, a million examples, but imagine I work in an organization, let's say, and an important part of what I'm trying to do is create a compelling customer experience, really hard to do in an age of AI in which I rarely get to interact with a customer. I work with lots of companies and organizations that are doing that. What do I do? I take them to a performance, like a performance of Cirque du Soleil. I have no idea what goes on at a Cirque du Soleil performance. Performance, but I get there early and I say, this is all I want you to do. I want you to pay attention to all the details of what their performance is. I want you to pay attention to how they welcome people and invite them to come in. I want you to pay attention to how they introduce what they're going to do. I want you to pay attention to what they do. I want you to pay attention to how they engage the audience in what they do. I want you to pay attention to how they finish up, and then how they follow up, and how they sell merchandise and all these things that get you connected with them. I didn't need to know brilliant things about how to create a compelling customer experience in my business. I just need to go out there and find folks who create a compelling customer experience, and then think about, gee, have I learned anything here that could help me to be more successful? I believe everybody listening is capable of doing that.
Kim Meninger
I want to ask you a question about that, because I think that there are probably people listening who are like, I don't even know where to start, right? So when we are thinking about brilliance and going out into the world and sort of taking it all in and researching it. Do you have thoughts on what to prioritize? Or, you know, because, like you said, it's everywhere. How do we do that efficiently?
Alan Gregerman
Well, so the only thing I would prioritize is a willingness to be present. Okay? And so if people are listening, they say, I don't know how to do it. And then they decide they're going to wander around with their cell phones and they're going to be focused on all of the stuff that's a bother. Then I say, you're not going to get with the program. But otherwise, I just say to people, where's your happy place? So I'm like an urban geographer. I love cities. Drop me in the middle of a city. I'll wander around. But here's all I want people to do is, whether you like cities or small towns or the countryside, just go someplace that really makes you feel good. Put your cell phone away and just walk around with your eyes wide open, paying attention and you'll be shocked at all the things you see that you wouldn't see otherwise, or all the things you hear. If you're in nature, take a little notebook, not your phone, because then you'll get distracted. Just take a little piece of paper notebook and write down everything that strikes you That's remarkable. Now you've started to realize that there are ideas and the world all around you that's worth doing. I don't feel that's hard to do. And so if people say that, have them reach out to me and I'll give them a guided tour or whatever. But I just feel like, remember when we were kids, and I don't know you're much more expert than I am, so when we were kids, I don't know when we started to have imposter syndrome, but when we were kids, we approached the world with our eyes wide open, because everything was new and exciting. I just want adults to approach the world and realize there's new and exciting stuff out there, and that that should be the starting point for them being brilliant.
Kim Meninger
I love that, because I think you're right in the beginning, everything is exciting and interesting. And then there are, whether that's experiences that we have, messages that we internalize, the change and newness feels scary to us. It becomes something to fear, not something to embrace.
Alan Gregerman
But our lives are filled with change and newness. You know how we shop, where, what kind of food we eat, where we go? Everything is filled with change and newness. And yet, it's interesting to me that people are awesome. They're like rock stars in other parts of their life, and then they suddenly go to work and they're told, Oh my God, my ideas aren't good enough. Or they tell themselves, my ideas aren't good enough, yet they're brilliant at every other aspect of their life. I believe they can be brilliant at the world of work, but not by just going in and getting pummeled or feeling insecure, by actually engaging the world, reading, paying attention, learning new things, and then saying this idea is kind of cool. Maybe we should use this as a starting point. Remember, the other thing that frustrates me a lot of times when people feel like they're they've peaked or they're imposters, is the simple notion that they believe that, as you were saying earlier, there's one right answer, and if we believe that, certainly we get stuck. If I don't know the right answer, then I'm kind of struggling. But if I believe with every problem that it's open to being brilliant, then why can't I be the one that's going to be brilliant and make something happen?
Kim Meninger
That's such an inspirational way to think about it. And I wonder, when you think about the workplace and some of the very real limitations, like maybe you have a demanding boss, maybe you know there are very rigid processes, is there. Is there a way to kind of balance the structure that's imposed with this innovative thinking that you're talking about?
Alan Gregerman
Yeah, so now you're getting at the heart of kind of the challenge a lot of people face, and that is, quite honestly, lots of our organizations aren't open to a new way of thinking. Lots of our organizations don't know how to deal with somebody who comes in on a Monday and says, you know, this weekend, I wandered around San Francisco and I saw all these cool ideas, or I walked up and down Fifth Avenue in New York, or I had the chance to be on vacation somewhere, and I thought of all these ideas like, why do they do this in this particular country, and not in our country or in our business? So I think what happens is some people come into work and they're confronted with the fact that the people they work for aren't open-minded. That's a challenge. Other people come to work and they're in more enlightened organizations, I would say, in which the bosses realize, you know, we got to be better at what we do. We have to think differently. I'm open to ideas. Come on, bring me some ideas. So that's a difficult thing. You know, I don't want to be flipped. But I say to people, if you're in a place where they're not open to you thinking and being curious, then I think you ought to find another place to be. You know, easier said than done, but I think that's the case is I can't change. Everybody's bad boss, and I don't know that we can pound our heads against the wall hoping that our bosses will change. I think organizations need to start creating a generation of leaders who are open to new ideas, who are humble and willing to say we don't have all the answers, but I bet together, we can figure it out. And I bet if I let all my folks go out and start thinking in new ways, we can figure out something. But I think it's a real challenge, you know, and I don't know it's probably why I started my own company 37 years ago was I just simply didn't feel in a large company I was going to make a difference. I mean, as part of my backstory, I worked for a once great industrial company called Westinghouse for two years. I made 10 suggestions for ways they could improve operations in the plant that I was in. I got nice notes every time. None were ever accepted. Three years after I left, I got a note that said, you know, your ideas were pretty good. We've implemented a bunch of them, but since you're not an employee, you don't qualify for the bonus. Wrote a nice note back and said, I didn't do it for the bonus. I do it. I did it to make you better, whatever. Glad you did it. Not certain Westinghouse even exists as a company, because they had such a bad way of kind of engaging and capturing the ideas of their people, whatever. But I started my own company, you know. So I get to do what I want. I might not be the best boss of the world, but I'm kind of fun to hang around because I'm always saying to people, Hey, go out and find something brilliant for us to work on.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, it’s all kind of, well, you bring up some really important points, which is, you can't control the environment around you, right? You can't control your boss. You can't control what the business is willing to tolerate in terms of innovation, but you can decide maybe this isn't the right place for me, long term. And, like you said, easier said than done, but you can start to, you know, put some, put some plans together for the longer term. But in the meantime, I wonder, because when you're talking about, you know, the brilliance and seeing what else is out there. I think sometimes people go to a place of that looks like a revolutionary overhaul of the way that we do things around here. Can you, can this be done at a micro level? Can you, like, I'm imagining that it might, even if you're in this pretty rigid, stubborn system, that you could still find small ways to put into practice what you're talking about.
Alan Gregerman
I think we have control over what we do. So I agree with you. I think I can look at my job, and even if I have a terrible boss, if they expect me to do kind of better work or get something done, I believe I can figure out how to be better at that based on kind of engaging the world and looking for ideas. But here's my kind of work hack that I would share with a lot of people, and that's the simple notion, even if you have a bad boss, I'm not saying quit tomorrow, but I'm saying, if you have something that really matters to you, where you think you can make a difference and you can't move it forward, I would still spend part of my time working on that, because I would take that to a competitor or another company, or start my own company with a better way of doing something. So I don't want you to get stuck because your boss is making it impossible for you to do things. I want you to be passionately excited about making it. Friends, and you do as much as you can in your organization, but you always have an eye toward there's a bigger challenge here, a bigger opportunity here. I can do something important, and if I can't make it happen here, I'm not going to stop thinking about it, and then I'll find a place where I can do it.
Kim Meninger
Oh, I like that. I think that's a great, that's a great way to sort of be doing short-term, long-term planning, right?
Alan Gregerman
Well, I think it makes it easier to come into work too, because I say to myself, look, these are not the easiest people, and they are not open to my ideas. It's not going to stop me from thinking, you know, I'm going to keep thinking I'm going to do the job they want me to do, but I'm going to keep thinking about how to do something better, and if they're not open to doing it here, I'll find some place where I can do this.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, exactly. I want to go back a little bit to the just the notion of being able to say, I don't have the answer to this, or I don't know this. Like, do you recommend embracing that language when you're talking to people like, how do you, how do you recommend navigating those situations when talking about people who are so afraid to say, I don't know?
Alan Gregerman
Well, so let's be honest. Okay, everyone who goes into our office, from the CEO on down, should be honest and say, I don't have all the answers. You know, maybe you've had on your show because you've done a lot of episodes, somebody who has, has had all the answers. But the reality is, none of us do, what should the best boss say? We're awesome today. We're doing really, really well, but five years from now, the world is going to be different, and none of us know exactly what it's going to be like, so we have to, together go on a journey to figure out how to be different and remarkable. So I don't think it's a question of saying I would reframe it. I don't think it's a question of saying I don't know. It's a question of being humble and saying we can't know all the stuff we need to know. But the difference between people, you know, when I talk about the whole idea of enlightened ignorance, the difference between people are successful and people who aren't successful is that the people who are successful embrace the fact that they don't know something but are eager to figure it out. Okay, so humility is important. It's important for all of us. It has nothing to do with whether I'm competent or not. It has everything to do with whether I'm being honest. Okay, everybody talks now about AI, okay, very few people know a lot about AI, and we have no idea five years from now what AI is going to be doing in our organizations. I can be curious about it and seek to figure out how to make it work for what I'm trying to do, but I start with a point of humility, and that says I don't exactly know. Let me work hard to get smarter, and that's what I want people to think about now, tied to that, and it's another reason to get out of the office is I need to have a bit of future focus. I don't know what the future exactly is going to be like, but there are all these tea leaves I can read going on right now. And so look, I sit in my office and outside my window, the world is passing by me and it's changing. I need to get out there periodically and pay attention to the changes, you know, I go into this, this will seem odd. So I go into deposit money. My wife's from Sweden. I go into a bank in Sweden, and I said, you know, I have a bunch of cash I'd like to put in our account. And the woman looks at me and says, No, this is a bank. We don't take cash. And I go, Wait, this is kind of hard for me to sort out, but I'm okay. I'm a little bit older guy. It's a bank, you know? She goes, Oh, no, all money's electronic. It's a lot safer for you and a lot safer for us. And so I said, Great, that's a sign the world is changing, right? And so more and more people, the Swedes, are advanced. I understand that, but, you know, everything will become digitized. There'll be less money, there'll be less stuff. Transactions will be different. My phone will be the way that I do most things. I need to go and see how all those things are happening, because that makes the target clearer and clearer and clearer. But if I sit in my office, I'm never going to notice that.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes. I think that's such an important thing to broaden your perspective and we get so tangled up in the minutia of our own lives and work and, and to just be able to zoom out is really helpful.
Alan Gregerman
Well, I think pay attention and be eager to make a difference. That's the thing that, for me, separates people. So if I'm a deer in the headlights, if I believe I'm an imposter and I'm a deer in the headlights, and I can't make anything happen, then the world is tough for me. But if, in fact, I believe it's a relatively level playing field that very few of us know what the world is going to look like, but all of us have a chance to make something important happen there, and it's likely to be with stuff I don't know today. I think that's kind of liberating. I think I'm a geographer. Look, you know, I would say to people, they'd say, What did you study in school? And I'd say, I have a bachelor's, a master's and a doctorate in geography. And people would say, Oh, do you know all the state capitals? And I go, Well, yeah. I mean, I had eight years to learn them. Of course. I you know, I know all the state capitals. But in a way, I could say, Gee, I'm kind of an imposter. I don't know science, I don't know technology. I didn't study it. I consult with companies. I have absolutely no business training. Or I could say not knowing stuff is an asset. You know, companies come to us and they say, you know, we've been referred to you because we're not particularly successful at doing this. Can you help us? And then I say, well, we'll try. I mean, we are pretty good at thinking in new ways about stuff. And then they say, where did you go to school? And I say, Northwestern. They say they had a great business school. And I say, I hear they did have a great business school. And they say, Oh, you didn't study business. And I go, No, I actually studied geography. And then they say, Well, you have an MBA? And I go, No, I went to Michigan. I think they have a really good business school there too. I got a doctorate in geography, and then they say, Well, you know, you study geography, how in the world can you help us? We're a business and I say, you all have business degrees, and you're really bad at what you're doing. Don't you think you should ask somebody who doesn't have a business degree how to be more helpful to you? And so the reality is, I believe it's just our willingness to take a fresh look, because the world is going to be fresh, and all of us can do that.
Kim Meninger
Yes, you're absolutely right, and you're making me think too, as you were talking earlier about the importance of not just doing this for ourselves, but of creating the space for everyone to do it. So if people listening manage teams, it's a great message to be delivering to the team the language that you're using right of the we don't know what the future is going to look like. Things are very different today, and that creates a space where people can be more creative, more curious.
Alan Gregerman
Oh, so you're, you're 1,000% I know. Can you be 1,000% right? So imagine this, if anyone listening runs a team exactly what you said. Are we better off, kind of pooling all of our enlightened ignorance, or just one person's view of the world? So I believe every leader's job is to say, I don't exactly know all the answers, but let's together go on a journey to figure it out that then energizes the members of their team too. I mean, it helps them to be successful. And the people on the team say, Oh, you really want my input, like I'm valued here. That's like a simple thing to do. Why more people don't do it? I don't know. I start here in our business, and I say to people, gosh, I don't know the answer, but this is a really fun problem. Let's try and figure it out here.
Kim Meninger
I love that. I think more people don't do it because they don't feel safe to do it. And so I think just doing it as an experiment is a really great way to get started.
Alan Gregerman
Well, I think just try. No, sure you're exactly right, just try. I mean, I would suggest to every leader that one day a month, they block on their calendar, and they go out as a team, looking at the world, looking for ideas, and then they have like a celebratory dinner, and they talk about, what did we learn today, and how might we apply that to what we do to be more valuable to the customers we serve? Very easy thing to do that creates a mindset of, we don't know, but we could know, and that's kind of cool.
Kim Meninger
I love that Alan, you've given us so much to think about at a practical level and also just at a really important mindset level. I would love to give people listening the chance to learn more from you. Where can they find you? Where can they find your book?
Alan Gregerman
Okay, good. So the book is, I hope I like to say it's available wherever thoughtful books are sold. So, of course, 80% of people will buy it on Amazon. It's available on Amazon. The wisdom of ignorance. If you have a favorite bookstore and they're not carrying it, just ask them to get it. They know how to get the book. If you like audiobooks, I actually narrated the audiobook, and so I'm kind of partial to it. I'm also partial to it because four and a half years ago, I had a stroke and lost the ability to speak, and I had 18 months of therapy to speak again. So I was really delighted to do the audiobook. I probably talk too much, but my website is Alan Gregerman dot com and so, and I think it'll be in the show notes and you can find out more. I post a lot of stuff. I hope there are a lot of ideas on there. I post, like, four days a week on LinkedIn, and so if you want to get some of my newest kind of ideas, they're there. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Don't just follow me. I'd like to connect with people you know, so I can learn about what you're doing, and maybe I have an idea that will help you to be kind of more remarkable and make you feel that you can do awesome things. Yeah, that's about it wonderful.
Kim Meninger
Alan, like you said, the links will be in the show notes and just thank you so much for your inspiration, for your, your insights. It's been so great to have you here today.
Alan Gregerman
Well, thanks for inviting me. I've enjoyed the conversation. I hope it was helpful to folks.
