Staying Calm Under Pressure

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about managing emotional intensity in high-stakes situations. My guest this week is Jeremy Hurewitz, author of Sell Like a Spy and a corporate consultant, who draws on years of working alongside intelligence professionals, such as FBI hostage negotiators, CIA case officers, and special forces, to teach practical strategies for emotional regulation, active listening and managing difficult conversations.

Here Jeremy shares why connection and empathy are the superpowers of elite negotiators, and how we can translate those same skills to our workplace and personal relationships. We talk about what to do when emotions run high, how to tell the difference between personal and situational conflict and why learning to let someone vent might be the best first step in defusing tension.

About My Guest

Jeremy Hurewitz started his career overseas as a freelance journalist for a decade based out of Prague and Shanghai. During that time, he also built and ran the international newspaper association Project Syndicate. After returning to his native New York, Jeremy joined the world of corporate security. An influential but little-known industry, Jeremy works with intelligence officers and other former government officials across a range of services including kidnap-for-ransom consulting, background investigations, executive protection, and many other sensitive assignments. Jeremy is the author of Sell Like a Spy, which bring spy tradecraft to business and everyday communications. Jeremy writes regularly on foreign policy for a wide range of publications and is a policy advisor on National Security for the Joseph Rainey Center. He is a Strategic Advisor to the corporate intelligence firm Interfor International and head of Interfor Academy.

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Jeremy, it's so great to have you here today. I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be with you. Yeah. So I started my career off overseas. I was a journalist based out of Prague and Shanghai. For about a decade, I went, I went abroad right after college with a backpack and a guitar. Just wanted just a sense of adventure, and wanted to experience a different kind of life. And I suppose I did. So. I freelanced for a variety of publications around the world, and I also helped build a Media Association called Project Syndicate, which I'm still quite proud of they're still thriving. Coming back to New York, I entered into the space of corporate consulting, specifically the world of intelligence and security, and I worked closely on sensitive matters with CIA case officers, FBI agents, including several former chief hostage negotiators, Members of the Special Forces, the Secret Service, you know, a variety of different top government officials. And I really learned some extraordinary things from these amazing individuals. And I had been thinking about those lessons and how I've applied them for quite a while. And during covid I decided to write a book which became the book sell like a spy, which is part memoir on, you know, perhaps an unlikely career, an unconventional career, and part handbook on communication strategies sourced from these elite government officials about how to build rapport, connect with people, negotiate diffuse, emotional encounters, a variety of different things, and these days, I do quite a bit of keynote speaking, talks, training sessions, and I'm also an advisor to a corporate intelligence firm called Interfor International.

Kim Meninger

That's a really fascinating background. I'm sure you've met all kinds of interesting figures. And how, how do you synthesize those experiences? Is there sort of, you know, an anchor framework, or some, I'm sure you wrote a book. So I'm not asking you to give away your secret sauce, but just curious, you know, when you think about the different conversations that you've had and what you've learned from so many of these people, what are some of the roots that you still hang on to?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah. I mean, the roots are listening and empathy and curiosity. You see these threaded through the elite skills of case officers from the CIA, from FBI hostage negotiators. You know, I always tell people that active listening is the most essential skill amongst all of these skills, and everything flows from being a good listener, but people are bad listeners. We all listen with an intention to reply, not an intention to understand. Sometimes you meet people who are natural introverts and they have a gift for listening. I always challenge audiences or you know, groups I'm training to think of the best listener they've ever experienced. And, you know, inevitably they, they share and agree with me that they have a very high opinion of that person. So the bedrock, the, you know, connective tissue, if you will, of all of these things, is being a good listener, someone who makes the other side feel respected, understood. I always say that people want to give comfort, and they seek comfort. So if you can be a person who provides that comfort, that is a great way to build rapport. And you know, whether it's sales, and I describe sales as kind of, you know, skills for everyday life. And I say that people buy from those that they like, and people remember how you made them feel. So case officers are so good at that, about empathizing, about winning people over. So after I start, you know, talking to people about why spies are not what you see in Hollywood, I start to get into the way that they're so elite a connection. So that's really the kind of thing that keeps it all together.

Kim Meninger

What's really interesting to me is that I think a lot about the way in which our ability to listen, to empathize, to reason gets undermined when we go into fight or flight under pressure, right? We, we often find ourselves in situations where we get triggered in some way and then we struggle to show up in the ways that we want to show up and that we, we hope we will show up when those moments arise. I think what's really fascinating about what you're talking about is you're describing this specialized skill in people who are working in very high-pressure situations, right? So is this something that they are taught and train in very rigorously? Like, how do they get to this level?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah, no, absolutely. There's a high degree of training. And I spend a, you know, a chapter of my book, you know, focused in part on what I described, diffusing emotional encounters. And I worked with some incredible members, mainly of the law enforcement community, who you can imagine, you know, are have to be adept at that. So I provide a variety of different frameworks about how to get people to calm down in an office or in an everyday setting, you know, trying to identify if the situation is focused on someone being upset at you or upset at the situation. So, you know, it's little things like that. You know, inviting the person to sit down, if they won't sit down, don't stand up, because that raises the emotional and, you know, temperature of the room let them fully vent. So I provided other strategies to help people calm down. And you're absolutely right in that, that first remark that you had, introducing the, the question here that I like to say that emotion Trumps cognition, and I remind people that, you know, after you've had an emotional argument with somebody. A lot of times, people say, later, oh, why didn't I think of this like one thing that they should have said? That's because your mind is choked with emotion. So you're literally not thinking clearly when you're dealing with an emotional encounter. And it can be very, you know, challenging we all have, you know, tempers. I certainly do. You know, you get upset at something, so it's very hard to sort of get hold of your emotions, but if you can do so, you'll be at an advantage, and you can avoid some bad, you know, circumstances if you make the wrong move. And you can also understand the other side a little bit more, if you can calm down and help them calm down as well.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I think that is so important, especially in a time where we're experiencing rapid, unpredictable change. People are just feeling stress in so many areas of their lives, so everybody's sort of very on edge. Yes, exactly, very little patience, severe, very much on edge. And so do you have advice for people who know that they may you mentioned knowing that you have a temper, maybe need to do some work on this and how to kind of get started in that. I know this is a lifetime journey. We could probably always get better. But do you see a natural starting point for people who maybe haven't spent the time thinking about this?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Well, they should as a starting point, go out and buy my book and learn all the lessons in the book, you know. But you know, I think I just shared a couple quick things there, you know, let people vent, you know, like when, when you're dealing with someone who's upset at something to you, whether it's someone who works for you or with you, whether it's your spouse, whether it's somebody that you meet on the street, you know, you're you're off. Oftentimes, the first instinct is to say, no, no, you're wrong. That didn't happen that way, or you're not thinking of this. The best thing to do is to let that person fully vent, and so that's a good starting point for diffusing an emotional encounter. There's a I always reference. One of my mentors, someone I talk about in the book, is named Gary Nessner. He's a former chief hostage negotiator at the FBI. He's the guy, kind of, behind the Waco series on Netflix, a really fascinating character, and he wrote a memoir called stalling for time. And a lot of FBI hostage negotiators will tell you that they play this out on a longer scale, because, you know, the it gives you time to calm down. That's and that's another tip in these emotional encounters. If you do some of the things I write about in my book, or, you know, try to get things to calm down, and they're really not getting there, solve for time, you know, say, can we speak about this later or tomorrow? And watch how it's that much easier. But if you let somebody who's angry with you kind of vent and go through it, it gives you time to also, like, take a breath, calm your emotions, breathe deeply, and think about, you know, what will be the right response that won't escalate the situation, that'll calm things down. So you need to invest in understanding some of the strategies, such as I write about in the book, but also starting with, you know, letting someone vent is a great first place tip that I would share with people.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And that kind of takes me back to what you had said earlier, about really thinking about whether the person is upset with you or with the situation. And I think it's human nature to personalize every situation that we're part of, and because we're doing that, we're not creating emotional distance in this situation. So it's really hard to let the person vent or to slow things down, if you are interpreting this as a personal attack, or you need to defend yourself in some way, right? So I think that's a big part of it too, is just being able to say this isn't about me right now.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Well, or identifying that it is about you. You know, there's a colorful way getting to this, this thesis, you know, in law enforcement, you know, these guys kind of get right to the chase, and I won't use the more colorful language, but it's either an F this or f you situation. And to your point, if you identify that it's not about the situation that someone has a problem with you, specifically, that's where these guys in law enforcement, you know, have to recognize that, hey, you know, self-defense needs to be a part of this. Or I need to understand that this person you know might attack me or something so it I don't want to, you know, split hairs or anything. You're absolutely right in pretty much everything you're saying. But the framework that I'm offering is also has an underlying tone of safety, of personal safety, because. Is you need to understand, if it's an F this situation, you can work together to see what kind of what you can do about the situation. If, if it's about your race, if it's about, you know, something about you that you really can't control, you better be able to, you know, understand the situation and keep yourself safe.

Kim Meninger

Is there anything else people should think about in that case? Because I think you're absolutely right. There's a different there's a different consideration there when it comes to the, the personal hostility, than it is the situation and, and I mean, to be fair, people knock you know, knock on wood, people in corporate environments are less likely to face the kind of threats that we're talking about. Law enforcement, but still, people feel personally threatened in those moments. So is there anything you should be thinking about from a safety perspective?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Well, you know, I just real quick on the corporate side, if you do identify it's not about the situation, it's about you. Again, I think you're right. I don't think you need to worry about self-defense as much in a corporate environment, but you need to understand that this person might have a real act, you know, some problem with you, and that's where you need to start getting your manager or HR involved. And that's why the framework is still useful in a corporate setting. Because, you know, you might it, and there's shades of gray here, of course, too. It might seem like the situation, but you could really realize that it's a personal problem. So I think the framework still applies in that respect. But in, you know, in the setting we're talking about, when it comes to security, you know, it really depends. You know, are you, is it? You know, Are you a woman, and it's a man who's many times bigger than you? Well, you know, if you have mace in your pocket or something like that, and now might be the time to at least subtly reach in and get it, you know, can you, can you get yourself out of the situation? Can you, you know, note to a bystander, hey, I'm feeling threatened right now, or if it's, you know, a peer adversary, are you trained in self-defense? Do you feel like you can handle it? And if you can't, and you feel threatened, how do you extricate yourself from the situation? And you know, I know some seriously tough dudes who can handle just about any situation, so, you know, grain of salt with what I just said, like nobody wins in a fight, and you want to do whatever you can to avoid it. So, you know, try to get yourself out of it as much as possible is a better move than, you know, resorting to, you know, to violence. But you need to defend yourself, sometimes, against crazy people. So understand that.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, and you know, some of what I'm thinking about too, is you need to have the presence of mind to think about some of these things. Certainly, the fight or flight instinct will kick in, and often, you know, it goes into that natural survival mode. But outside of that, what I'm thinking about is the importance of really strategizing ahead of time. I often think about really thinking through in a neutral moment, how you might handle a difficult interaction with somebody, just so that you, you're not thinking for the first time in that moment.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Absolutely. That's why you know, reading about these things, thinking about them. How would I handle this? It's all, you know, good these emotional encounters. You sometimes you have a chance to prepare for it. You know, you have a meeting with somebody. It could be, you know, very tense a phone call, something like that. But a lot of times they pop up, someone storms into your office, or you bump into somebody on the street, whatever it might be, it can be difficult to prepare for that. But you know, understanding that these moments will for sure happen in your life, and you know, reading about it, planning, how would I handle it? What are my weak points? What are my strengths? You know, is a good thing to do.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely, I think, to your point, you can't anticipate every specific situation, but you can anticipate that you will encounter conflict at some point. So being thoughtful about how you want to show up in those moments is worthwhile. How do you see self-doubt, if at all, playing into this? You know, obviously, we talked to some extent about imposter syndrome on this show, and I'm curious about the role that our own mindset plays in what you're talking about. It strikes me that you kind of have to have a certain level of confidence or belief in yourself to be able to engage effectively in these interactions.

Jeremy Hurewitz

That's an interesting point. I can't say that I've pondered it that deeply. You know, being comfortable with yourself and trying to, you know, be truthful with yourself, I think would put you in a, you know, calm, confident position to understand, you know your weaknesses and strengths and all of these, and we've been going over some of them. You know, are you, you know, a large person who can handle themselves physically and that you know might even cause somebody on the other side to pause if they're upset with you? Or are you a smaller person, you know, that you know could find yourself threatened? You know, having a little bit of self-confidence will be helpful, and understanding your, your weaknesses will be helpful as well.

Kim Meninger

Do you think there's any value, or do you see this happening in, in the groups or in the people that you're talking about, of getting external feedback as well on what some of those strengths and weaknesses might look like?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Always great to get external. Feedback on your strengths and weaknesses, especially if it's, you know, a scenario that could be really tense, or something that you're pretty certain will come up and you want to train for it, talking to trusted colleagues, you know, family, good friends, about hey, you know, how do you see me react under pressure? You know? What do you how do people react to me when you know they're upset? You know, learn that kind of feedback is, is really good for growth.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, and I understand it can be challenging. I mean, nobody likes getting tough feedback, but it's really helpful if you are serious about making the kind of changes that we're talking about here, and so to just be willing to go out there and get have honest conversations.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Absolutely couldn't agree, couldn't agree more.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, and you're also making me think about and, you know, you've, you've touched on this in different contexts, of just the importance of really knowing who your allies are in some of these situations. Because I think sometimes we have a tendency to go it alone, or we forget in the moment that we don't have to do everything ourselves. And so you had mentioned earlier the idea of raising it to your manager, to HR, you know, just not feeling like you're on an island when you're encountering these types of challenges is really important as well.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah, absolutely. And just tactically dealing with tense situations. So you know what? When an FBI hostage negotiator is dealing with a siege, he or she, the individual who's leading the negotiation, is not taking notes, so they're on there and they're trying to verbally mirror the person they're trying to understand. I offer a framework for negotiation that is sourced from these, you know, FBI hostage situations. So they have their hands full speaking to the person. They have someone with them that is taking notes on the situation. So understand that your brain can, you know, most effectively process kind of, you know, one thing at a time that you can really focus on, and having someone come with you to a tense negotiation where you're going to be involved in using the skills I write about, eliciting things, you know, having a framework for negotiation, you know, making good eye contact, reading body language, let someone else on the team, perhaps someone Junior, that could benefit from your experience, come along and take notes. So, you know, I've seen it in the consulting world, especially in business development, people think, yeah, I can go it alone, or I want all the credit. I'm the star here. I've never been like that. I always wanted to leverage allies to especially if I could feature expertise that will help me move the agenda long so I'm a big fan of that approach.

Kim Meninger

I really like that too, and I think, you know, I can imagine the circumstances in which this may not be the case. But I also think if you have somebody, particularly someone who's taking notes, or somebody who's sort of, you know, an observer might diffuse some of the tension too, because if it's just two of you face to face, right, that might be a different level of intensity than if you sure a more neutral party in the room with you. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you think that, especially people in more traditional work environments should be thinking about when it comes to managing themselves under pressure, or helping to diffuse some of the tension when it comes to, you know, emotional figures on the other side of the table?

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah, I mean a couple other little tips if you're, if you're, you know, on the other side of an emotional situation. You know, I've given you some tips already. Let that person vent, invite them to sit down, you know, ask a clarification question, even though you're probably ready to contradict them, because that will continue to get them talking. And the more they talk, the more that they unburden themselves and exhaust themselves, the better that chance you have of getting to a positive outcome. I tell people you know, that you should offer them the chance to suggest a resolution. What do you think should be done here? And you know, a lot of times, what you see is someone who is still emotional will say something, you know, a little bit more extreme. I think that person should be fired, you know, or you know, and then you kind of let it sit there for a moment. Don't respond right away. Let that, you know, a little bit of crazy statement, sit in the room and see if that oftentimes, will put a pin in their bubble of anger, and they might say, well, you know, I'm just angry about the way so and so behaved. So if you invite someone to participate in the resolution of what's happening, it could be a helpful way to get that situation to calm down.

Kim Meninger

I love that idea. I think that is a very effective strategy, because that also gives them a sense of ownership over the path forward, right and and I think at the end of the day, so much of what you're talking about is make helping the other person feel heard, and absolutely, if they haven't had that chance to bench like you're saying they're in a particularly emotional moment, giving them the space to just kind of get it out of their system right. It can go a long way, and 100% temperature down and, and also to your point, pacing is so important, because if you immediately jump in, you're just going to escalate. But like you said, you just kind of let it hang there for a minute. They themselves might realize. Guess maybe that's not the best path forward.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Absolutely and in terms of pacing, you know, that makes me think of another great tip, which is, you know, I've heard FBI guys call it the FM radio voice, you know, like, if you use a calm and slow manner of speaking, which is absolute tradecraft with FBI hostage negotiations, they have someone on the other end that's, you know, yelling and angry. They will not take their bait, and they will not yell and be angry. They will not rise to insults. So if you can take that approach of what you know, let making sure that you're insisting on the social norm of speaking calmly and in a deliberate manner. Human beings tend to resort to that norm. You'll see groups of people, and they're waving their arms around. They're all talking in an animated fashion. Other times they're scratching their chin and they're very, you know, pensive, because we accept the norms around us. We're social creatures, so you can insist on that behavior, and it will lower the temperature of the room.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I think that's a really good point too. Is we kind of mirror each other, and so sure the steady presence in the room, you might bring that person into that mode. And the, the other thing I was going to ask you about, too, is we've talked a little bit about what you do outside of the room to prepare for this. You can't know for sure how you're going to show up until the real moment hits, right? I mean, there's only so much you can rehearse or practice. But I wonder, as you were talking about speaking calmly and the FM radio voice, do you recommend, or maybe, where do you recommend practicing some of these things in real life so that they become a more natural part of your repertoire? Because one of the things that I think about, too, is about too, is that I often recommend people speak slowly, because it's also a way of managing your confidence. When you're in a situation where you feel like maybe you're rambling, or you're, you're not having as much success articulating what you want to say. And I recommend like practice that in other situations, because if it becomes more natural to you, you'll be able to use it when you really need it.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah, I think you're absolutely correct in that. And, you know, my response on, on where to practice is with your family, you know? I mean, obviously, we're whether it's just, you know, you're at home with your spouse, or you have kids like we aren't you, you know, with people closest to us because we're in such proximity. So instead of flying off the handle next time, see if you can use that FM radio voice or when they get mad at you, and see if you can calm it down. So I think that's the best place to practice.

Kim Meninger

I’m going to try that with my husband next time, being good practice ground. [Absolutely.] This has been so fantastic. Jeremy, I really appreciate this. It very much aligns with my own mission of trying to give people tools to manage themselves in the moment, because that emotional response dominates, and then we end up, like you said, doing things we're not proud of, or just making the situation worse. I love the angle that you bring, and you know, the focus on some of these law enforcement people that we sort of have mythical notions of based on Hollywood. I would love to first of all invite you to share any final thoughts you have, but also to let us know where we can find your book and just continue to stay connected with you for anyone who's interested.

Jeremy Hurewitz

Yeah, thanks so much. I mean, final thoughts, the people that I've highlighted, I have massive admiration for. You know, we tend to thank members of our military for their service. They wear uniforms and they can recognize them. I try to bring a light to you know, others, whether they're in the FBI or the CIA, that quietly serve our country, protect our national security, and we typically only hear about if there's a big problem. So, you know, keep these folks in mind. They do incredible work, and they have amazing skills. So I like shining a light on that. And I hope people, you know, will consider reading the book and learning about how they are very, you know, far from many aspects of Hollywood. And in fact, they're actually more interesting in my, in my estimation. So I hope people read the book and learn from that it's available, you know, on Amazon and, any place you want to buy a book, it's the audio version is read by me. If you're joining my FM radio voice over here, and, yeah, you can find me at sell like a spy dot net. Is my website. I tend to post and interact with people on LinkedIn, and I do keynote talks, training sessions for corporations, motivational kind of lunch and learns. And we'd love to hear from any member your audience that wants to engage.

Kim Meninger

Wonderful. I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. And thank you so much for being here.

Jeremy Hurewitz

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.