Staying In: What It Really Takes to Thrive as a Working Mom
- Kim Meninger
- Jun 10
- 19 min read
In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about the challenges facing working moms. Are you struggling to balance your professional ambitions with the demands of home life? Wondering if it’s even possible to stay in the workforce without burning out or stepping back? My guest this week is Kathryn Sollmann, career coach and author of The Four Jobs Club. Kathryn is on a mission to keep women in the workforce—and in this conversation, she shares practical, compassionate advice for doing just that. We talk about why so many women leave the workforce at emotional low points, how to reframe unpaid work in business terms, and why letting go of perfection is key to thriving at work and at home. We also discuss how to have proactive conversations with your employer to create more flexible, sustainable career paths. Whether you’re re-entering the workforce, contemplating a career pivot, or just trying to stay afloat, this episode is a powerful reminder that you have more options—and more power—than you think.
About My Guest
Kathryn Sollmann, Speaker, Coach and Author, has made it her mission to keep women working toward financial security in a flexible way—alongside child and aging parent caregiving roles. Kathryn’s forthcoming book, The 4 Jobs Club: How Smart Women Care for It All—Kids, Aging Parents, Home & Career, features 200+ simple tips and strategies from 50 C-Suite Women on how they have found ways to blend work and life—and take care of themselves, too.
~
Connect with Kathryn:
~
Connect with Kim and The Impostor Syndrome Files:
Join the free Impostor Syndrome Challenge.
Learn more about the Leading Humans discussion group
Join the Slack channel to learn from, connect with and support other professionals.
Schedule time to speak with Kim Meninger directly about your questions/challenges.
Websites: https://kimmeninger.com
Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Kathryn, it's so great to have you here today, and I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, I have been working with women since 2012 focused on women who were returning to the workforce after being home with family, and then that morphed into helping current professional women stay in the workforce. My raison d'etre, my, my objective, is to keep women in the workforce. And I say that very unapologetically, I believe that most women should work and need to work for long-term financial security, and that there are many life you never knows, but we are living at a time in a time when there is a lot more flexibility, and we all don't have to work 80 hour weeks, and, you know, commute long distances or travel around the world, but it is really important to keep your hand in and so that's what my work is all About. I am helping women blend work and life, and that is what my current book, the 4 Jobs Club is about, where I asked 50 women in the C-Suite how they've managed to stay in given the fact that they have the four jobs as well.
Kim Meninger
So do you have a personal experience with this, what brought you to this work?
Kathryn Sollmann
I my, I mean, my, my personal experience is that I, you know, I saw my mother give up her career and be very dependent on my father, who then lost his big Park Avenue, New York, job, executive job, and it created a lot of financial instability for the family, and she really had to scramble to help, you know, keep the family afloat. And she eventually did, which was great, but I, I think that living in, outside of New York City and being in an air in an area, you know, 20 years ago, when my kids were young, where most women were not working and, and seeing that a lot of things would happen, that husbands would lose jobs, or husbands would get sick or divorce, and I would see that, you know, these women who'd been out of the workforce for a long time were having a lot of trouble getting back in and ramping up, and they had lost a lot of, you know, really valuable time. So that's, that's really how this work really started. It was an effort to help those women get back, but then also be, you know, very help others. Be very cautionary about saying that, you know, I'm going to leave the workforce for a couple of years when, in fact, it turns into an average of 12.
Kim Meninger
So what do you see? And I would love to break this into two parts. I think that the way that you just described it is really helpful of the women who are trying to get back in after having taken some time off, and then those that you're trying to encourage to maybe think a little bit differently about how they stay in the workplace. So if we start with the women who are trying to get back in, what do you see as the primary challenges or questions that these women are asking?
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, the challenge is that a lot of women leave the workforce, and they, first of all, as I said, they think, Well, I'm only going to stay out for a couple of years, but life happens, and, you know, it just keeps happening, and there's always a reason not to go back. You know, some a child's having trouble reading. Your mother-in-law gets sick there. You know, can be a million reasons why you say it's not the right time to go back. And the, the problem is that when women are out, they don't always remember that they should keep their hand in in some way, and that can actually be through volunteer work, but they tend to do the volunteer work that is a little bit more invisible and a little bit more or a little bit less related to business skills. So I always say, if you're going to be out of the workforce, you know, make sure you're. Continuing to use your business skills, and when you decide you want to go back, make sure you're describing all those volunteer experiences in business terms. So you didn't just work on the book fair at school. You managed 50 volunteers, and you raised, you know, X amount of money, which was 50% more than last year, you know, all of that. So the, the women who've been out of the workforce really need to keep and get into and describe a business mindset when they're when they're ready to go back.
Kim Meninger
And some of this, I think, is a matter of, I'm just not thinking about it in those terms when I'm in the middle of it right, because I'm just doing what I'm doing, and I'm not thinking about how this connects to my future career prospects. But I also think it's important to acknowledge the mindset challenges around this because I do think that there are a lot of women who now think to themselves, well, I don't actually have skills that transfer back into the workplace, right? They, they start to doubt themselves. They start to question whether they are marketable in some way.
Kathryn Sollmann
Right. Um. But again, it's going back to, you know, translate those volunteer roles into business skills. You know, you're, you're using public relations skills, you're using marketing skills, communications, writing, research. Then it's, it's all transferable. It's how you how you describe it, you know, and if, and if you kind of apologetically walk into an employer after being out of the workforce for a period of time, and kind of softly talk about what you've been doing in an, in a, in a volunteer role, and you're not exuding confidence, or, you know, just saying, Look, I have continued to develop my business skills in these ways and, and talk about it in a confident way. You know, then potential employers are not apt to look at you as a soccer mom who has been, you know, baking brownies for six years.
Kim Meninger
Exactly, exactly. And I'm glad you, you touched on that too because I think so much of it is in the delivery. If it comes across as defensive or apologetic, then it automatically sets a negative tone for the conversation, as opposed to owning your decision. This was a decision that you made for a reason, and then demonstrating that you have maintained your skills throughout. I think to your point about thinking about it through that business lens, the sooner that you start to do that. And I think documenting is important as well, because we forget, and you're not going to remember. How much did the book fair make? You're not going to remember, or you're not going to be able to go back and find somebody who can give you the information on the metrics and things like that. So I think having a system too for keeping track of it in the moment is going to be important.
Kathryn Sollmann
Right. I mean, and you and it's, it really is when you leave. And again, I'm not a proponent of leaving, but there are certain cases where you just can't help it. You know, if your mother-in-law is sick, or you know your child is going through a, you know, a terrible situation, everybody understands that you, you have to leave. But when you're in that situation, you have to leave mindfully and really be thinking about I am going to be out of the workforce, but I am going to do everything I can to stay current within my field. You know, keep reading, keep meeting with, with colleagues from time to time and, and engage in activities that are resume-worthy. You know, it's very nice to be the room mother, but it's, it's better to, you know, be on the Finance Committee of the PTA, you know, so that it's very clear that you're using business skills.
Kim Meninger
I think one of the things that everyone struggles with, but particularly moms, is time, right? So I wonder when you talk about some of these things like staying current in your field, or meeting with your colleagues. Is there anything you would say to people who say, Oh, gosh, I barely have enough time to take a shower?
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, yes, I mean, it is absolutely there is not a, you know, I, excess of time for everyone. But I did a very interesting thing when I first started working with, with women. I created a course, and it was called Opportunity Knocks, and it was to help women get back into the workforce from all different perspectives, psychological, financial, logistical, you know, all the, all the things that you had to think about when you were going back to work. And often this, this time issue would come up, like, I don't know. I mean, I'm doing so much, you know, I just, I just can't imagine that I'm going to throw, you know, work back on this. You know, even a part-time job, I'm not sure I have the time for it. And so what I would have them each do is write down all the time that they were devoting to volunteer work, to playing tennis, to, exercising to, you know, whatever, whatever it is that was not, you know, related to the kids or the household. And inevitably, they would come up with the equivalent of a part-time job. And sometimes even more, more, you know, closer to a full-time job. So, and for something as important as your long-term financial security, I think you can find the time.
Kim Meninger
I agree. I think that's an important piece to it too. Is it becomes a matter of prioritization, right? So let's talk a little bit about women who are already in the workplace, who may be feeling stretched really thin and are starting to think, I don't know if I can stay here. I may have no choice but to leave. What do you say to women who are on the cusp?
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, first of all, women tend to leave the workforce when they're at an emotional low. It's often, you know, something that one thing that broke the camel's back, and it can be something that is actually not that dire or dramatic, but when you're trying to manage the four jobs, and again, in my book, The four jobs are your paid job, plus kids, aging parents and your household, so when you're trying to manage all Four of those jobs, you know, it's, there's not a tremendous amount of time you're feeling completely stressed out. And so, you know, really, what I encourage women to do is to try to take a step back and say, How can I streamline these jobs? What can I do and not do? What's a what's a nice to do and what's a, you know, not important to do. We all with four jobs. We all have very, very, very long to-do lists. But what I say is, you need to create a not to do list. What are the things that you're not going to do? What are the things that really don't matter to anybody? And when, like, for example, if you're a working mom and you, you know, think that a lot of the other moms in the class are not working. And, you know, lots of times people, women working, women feel guilty. And so it comes to snack time, and there's a story in the book about a woman who felt like, I'm going to make these great homemade treats and send them into school. I'm going to show those, you know, stay-at-home moms that you know, I can do everything you know, as well as they can in terms of things like this. So, you know, she would stay up until 10 o'clock and, and be baking and whatnot, and send all these treats into school. And finally, one day, the nursery school teacher came over to her and said, You know, it's wonderful that you send all these homemade treats to school, but you know, you're the only mom who does. And so, you know, sometimes we, we place these, you know, unrealistic demands on ourselves that nobody even cares about. And so we have to make a conscious effort to shorten our, our to-do list. We have to get away from perfection. You know, it. I often tell my clients that you can't do all of those four jobs at 100% certainly not every day, but you know, even within a month or a year, you can't do them all at 100% and sometimes never do the even one of them at 100% and that's okay. You know you have to make sure that your children are safe and fed. But after that, there's a tremendous amount of wiggle room about what you have to do and not have to do and what you know at what level things need to be done, and it's okay if you're at the 70% level. One of the women in the book said, you know, my I realized that my kids were never going to remember that I had a perfectly clean house, but they'll remember that I spent time with them.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, no, that's a great point. And I think that's also one of the things that I think about a lot, is the math that you just described. You have 100% four jobs. You can't look at as I'm gonna, I'm gonna do. You don't have 400%. [No.] Right? There’s no way to do 100% of four jobs at the same time. You're inevitably going to have to balance those over the course of time. And so I think this guilt that you're talking about is very real, this sense of, I'm not giving enough of myself to all of them or some of them. And so we never really feel this sense of accomplishment or pride in our work because it always feels like there's more we should or could be doing.
Kathryn Sollmann
Yeah, and I mean, and in shortening the to-do list, you can find a lot more satisfaction. I mean, I always tell the story of when my children were young, I, and I was working, and I was thinking, Ah, the weekend. I love the weekend, because all these projects at home, you know, that I want to get to, and all these things that I have to do, and I'd make these long to-do lists for the weekend, and you know, inevitably, I would never get through that list and, and by Sunday, I would feel like a complete failure. And finally, I realized, you know, look, I got young kids, I've got a house, I've got all I'm working, you know, all this stuff, and I'm going to put maybe three things on the list for the weekend, and if I only get to one of them, that's okay. And you know, it's, it's managing your own guilt, expectations perfection. You know, women put way more on themselves than they need to.
Kim Meninger
That's a good point about the expectations too. I think if you set an expectation with yourself that you can and will do it all, then anything less than perfection feels like you're falling short. As opposed to saying, I know that a weekend is two days, and part of that time I'm going to want to do other things, or rest, or whatever, like, let me think realistically about what I'm actually going to do so that I can achieve a, you know, a sense of success and accomplishment. [Right.] So, is there anything that you recommend women do differently in terms of cement, you mentioned the not to do list. Do you talk to women at all about how to have these conversations with their managers, or how to think about in relationship to some of the very high demands that companies put on women these days?
Kathryn Sollmann
I think that you have to consider everything that is on the to-do list at work in the same way you know, there are the, there are the things that you know absolutely are critical to get done, and then there are sort of the ancillary things that may not be as critical, or they may be important, but they could be done by someone other than you, and it's, you know, it's a great thing to think about delegating, because delegating not only lessens your load but can create opportunities for younger colleagues, who, who need to learn and grow in their, in their jobs as well. So really being again mindful about prioritizing and being realistic about what is the most important. Important and, and maybe some things that you know just don't need to be done. It's all about planning. You know, maybe some of the things on your list can be done six months from now, but these conversations often don't happen. It's, it's often that you just have this big, huge dump of stuff that you have to do at work. And, you know, nobody's, you know, you're kind of running and putting out fires, and then more things are added in, and it's, there's not a lot of stepping back and saying, Okay, it's not humanly possible to do all of this, so let's figure let's rejigger who's doing what on the team, what we can delegate, what we can push off for three months, six months, whatever. These, these are kinds of things that you have to do at home and you have to do at work.
Kim Meninger
Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. And I think we think about that when we're thinking about like project planning, or, let's say you're in a change initiative, nobody expects that that's going to happen immediately. There are phases to the project, there are deliverables and milestones that happen over a period of time, but when it comes to ourselves, everything, we expect everything to be done in this moment perfectly, right? So I think what you're describing is really important for as a transferable skill. So many people are used to doing this in other contexts. How do we do it within our own lives? And, like you said, it's not that. It's not all or nothing or now or never. It's maybe I'm going to look at this in the next quarter or next year, after I've gotten through these other things, to really look at this as a longer-term plan, rather than everything needs to be done immediately. [Right.] So what you're talking about in terms of delegation, I think is really important. I think that's a skill that we could all do better in our personal lives and in our professional lives. I know a lot of women struggle with control and fear of giving up certain responsibilities, especially if they're perfectionists. They feel like, oh gosh, nobody's going to do it as well as I can. Or if you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. Mentality, right? Or I just don't have time to train people, I think you're really hitting on an important point, which is you're creating opportunity for other people, and you're enabling them, empowering them to be more self-sufficient, and that's at work and at home. So having my kids do their own laundry, or you know, having somebody else load the dishwasher, even if they don't do it the way I do is really important because it's teaching them life skills at the same time that it's freeing up my bandwidth to be able to do other things.
Kathryn Sollmann
Right. There's a wonderful quote there. I don't know if you're familiar with Laura Vanderkam. She is a time management guru, and she has written lots of great books, but one of the great quotes that I talk about all the time is Done is better than perfect. You know, it really doesn't matter if your husband folds the towels the same way that you do as long as they're in the closet and they're, you know, relatively neat, then, then that's done. And perfect doesn't matter. And you know, and you're right. You are giving your kids the opportunity to, to learn life skills and but that, you know, there's another important point in all of this, and that is that, you know, there's a it's wonderful to have help. And you know, oftentimes a husband, especially will say, How can I help? And that is, um at face value, that's a nice thing that someone's saying, How can I help? But actually, help is not helpful. Um, because, all right, let's, let's make believe you're it's Saturday morning and your kids are running in eight different directions. And you know, everybody's gotta go here and there, and there are all these things that need to be done. And your husband stands there and says, How can I help? Well, right at that moment, it's like, What do you mean? I mean, I've got 50 things in my head. I don't know which thing to give to you, then I have to stop, and I have to tell you how to do it and all the things to remember. And you know what? It's just it's just easier for me to do it myself. But that's not the answer either. So what you want to get to is. Is a point where your, your husband, owns certain things. So you, you decide, you know, you, you choose a few big things in the household that he could own. It could be laundry, it could be grocery shopping, it could be whatever you want. But every week, day, you know, every week, without fail, that is his job to get it done. And then you can take that piece off your mental load, and you don't have to worry about it. And there's no asking, How can I help, you just know that's going to get done.
Kim Meninger
I love that because asking, How can I help assumes that you're doing a favor and not sharing ownership, right? [Right.] You're absolutely right. So it's, how are we going to distribute the responsibilities? And then we can support each other, but it's not one person who owns all of them, right? Exactly. So I have a, and another question here, speaking to the idea of keeping women in the workplace, this is, I think, obviously going to vary from situation to situation, but there are times when women will say things to me like, I don't know if I want to get promoted, because I don't know if I have the bandwidth to take on additional responsibility they're worried about career growth. When does it make sense to actually take your foot off the gas and maybe even take a step back in your career, or you had mentioned early on, not having to do 80 hours of work, maybe even do a part-time job, versus really thinking about how you reset some of these expectations in your mind, like, how do you know when you've exhausted your options, and you really do just need to remove yourself from the situation that you're in.
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, you don't know if you've exhausted your options until you've discussed your options with your current employer, which is something that women are still often reticent to do so being open and communicating with your boss about the fact that you know you're going through a particularly difficult period because of XYZ at home and with the family, and that you're going to need some More flexibility. And you know, what? What could we do that would work for you and work for me? And you know, that could be an extra day at home if you have a hybrid situation. It could be some kind of compressed work week where you're, you know, working four days instead of five. It could be going to part-time for a period of time, it could be actively saying, I know I'm being considered for this role, but for the next six to 18 months, I don't think I can take that role. But what else can I do in order to grow in place, and, you know, continue to develop my portfolio of skills? I mean, once you've had, had that conversation, and if your boss comes up with absolutely nothing or something that is, you know, not palatable to you, you know, then it may make sense. Well, first of all, then you might be at the wrong company. So it may make sense to leave no matter what. But I always tell people that, you know, even a difficult situation can be better than adding a fifth job, which is looking for a job. But anyway, if that you will reach that point of knowing whether where you are is going to give you, you know the flexibility that you that you need. But hopefully, you're not going to then just go home, you know, hopefully, you're going to say to yourself, well, maybe there's another company that would be more flexible. Maybe there's a part-time situation that I could get into at another company, or maybe I could go home and become a freelancer for a while, or, you know, develop a little bit of a consulting practice for a while, and he, maybe even my current employer, would hire me as a consultant for a period of time. Okay? So, you know, you women tend to say it's not possible before they've even explored the possibilities, and so you can't make those assumptions. You've really got to do, do the research.
Kim Meninger
I'm so glad you said that because you just laid out a number of options that I'm sure people haven't thought of, because when we're in that moment and you mentioned the emotional low, everything feels overwhelming, and we're feeling guilty and ashamed and we don't necessarily even feel comfortable having these conversations, whereas if we can think with a more open mind to different possibilities, we may not have to make dramatic changes in our current careers.
Kathryn Sollmann
And in most cases, as I learned in talking to the C suite women in my book, you know, in most cases, if you're a good employee, they're going to try to find a way to keep you. They don't want you to leave it. It's very expensive and time-consuming to find a replacement for you and you're making, you know, great contributions. They're going to try to make it work.
Kim Meninger
You're right, especially because it's always temporary. Life changes so often that whatever situation you're in right now is going to look very different six months a year, two years from now, right? So I think that's those are excellent points. Kathryn, this has been such a fantastic conversation. I think you've given us a lot to think about and a lot of inspiration too. I'm hoping that people listening will realize they have more power and more options than they realize they do. For people who are interested in learning more about your work and staying connected to you, where can they find you?
Kathryn Sollmann
I'm on my website, which is Kathryn Sollmann dot com with two L's and two N's and, and then my, my current book is on Amazon and all over the place, which is called the 4 Jobs Club, How Smart Women Care for it All, Kids, Aging Parents, Home and Career.
Kim Meninger
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for the work that you're doing, and thank you for being here today.
Kathryn Sollmann
Well, thank you for having me.
