In this episode of the Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about how helping men to heal will help all of us to thrive. So much of the dysfunction we experience in today’s workplaces is rooted in the lack of compassion we have for ourselves, our fragile egos, and the way we perceive others as threats. This is much deeper than impostor syndrome. While we tend to focus on women’s challenges in the workplace, a giant missing piece of the puzzle is how we understand men’s experience. When men are in pain, and so many of them are, they hurt others on small or large scales. My guest this week is Sean Harvey, author of the new book Warrior Compassion, Unleashing the Healing Power of Men. Sean is an organization development consultant, an interfaith minister and much, much more. One of the things I find most fascinating about his work is the healing work he does with men in hyper-masculine systems, such as police forces and even right-wing extremist groups. Here, Sean and I discuss what our DEI conversations are missing and how compassion will lead us to far greater levels of inclusion.
About My Guest
Sean Harvey, MSOD, MSEd, is an organization development consultant, master facilitator and mentor, professor, interfaith minister, TEDx speaker, and men’s soul adventure guide. He received the Saul A. Silverman 2021 Award for Conflict Resolution and Healing from the International Organization Development Association for his healing work with men in hyper-masculine systems.
His work in personal, organizational, and societal transformation is inspired by twenty-five years of purpose, talent, and organization development consulting combined with having served on the faculties of Cornell, New York University, and Baruch College CUNY teaching courses in the areas of leadership, management, and organizational behavior and change. Sean is affiliated with George Washington University’s Center for Excellence in Public Leadership in Washington, D.C. As an interfaith minister, he co-founded Project Compassion, a national initiative to deepen compassion in police departments and communities.
In 2021, he delivered his TEDx, “Compassion Makes the Warrior.” Sean's book, "Warrior Compassion: Unleashing the Healing Power of Men" was published in September 2023 and became an Amazon New Release Best Seller for Organizational Change and Fourth Best Seller for Men's Gender Studies.
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Connect with Sean:
Website: https://warriorcompassion.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/seanharvey
Insta: @warrior_compassion
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Transcript
Kim Meninger
Welcome, Sean, from the moment I met you, I've been waiting to have this conversation. So I'm so grateful that we're finally here. And I would start, I would love to start by inviting you to introduce yourself.
Sean Harvey
All right. Um, you know, I, I, you know, this is imposter syndrome. So, you know, taking off the mask and just being real. Um, I often like to just say I'm, I'm a bunny dad first. So I'm a rabbit educator and have my, my compassion level of compassion has been deepened by fostering or owning time, bunny rabbits, and being an educator for the shelter. Um, so that I mean that, that juxtaposed to what I do for a living, which is, you know, I'm, I'm a change management, organization development for a professional practitioner. I am an interfaith minister. I'm men's work guide. And I'm a college professor. And I've been doing this work on some form or fashion, but always along a thread for the last 25 years. But my I think, what most people when they read about me here is that I went from Wall Street to Eileen Fisher to seminary. And now I work with police and military to give him compassion and police departments and hypermasculine systems. So you juxtapose the guy going into hyper-masculine systems with the bunny Dad, just gives you a sense of what I think is the juxtaposition of when men come into their true selves, the balance between strength and tender tenderness.
Kim Meninger
And… I think that you paint such an amazing picture, especially with the bunnies, because it's just so amazing to me. How did you get here, like, the work you're doing is so fascinating and so meaningful? How what was the path to this point?
Sean Harvey
Hmm, um, well. The way I would describe it, you know, I, when I came out as a gay man at 15, I was a gay activist at 16, I started the first gay and lesbian youth group for the city of Dayton, Ohio, in 1990, when I was 16-years-old, that organization still exists today. And I just turned 50. So you can do the math. But for over 30 years, what I, what I would say is, I've had a pretty, I was a kid that was bullied, I was a kid that was always on the outside. I was someone who never felt like I belonged. I think the gift of that is you see the world through a very different lens. You see the world and what it also does is it when you can start to learn to love yourself, you have a capacity for compassion. And I, over the years when I would make decisions about my career, if I would go after the money, the title, the fame, the success, I would literally fall on my face within six months. It wasn't a good fit. That was a horrible, you know, it just didn't work. But when I would go back and really sit in the silence of like, okay, who but who am I really, I would often think about that experience of starting the gay and lesbian youth club. And I would go Hi, I'm a man who's committed to service and no steps, when I would listen in that in that, to my truth. Those steps are what led me here. So those steps are what led me to studying organization development. Because I wanted to create change in the world, not just a great change in organizations. That led me to move to New York. That led me to become a college professor. And for 10 years, that led me to work for a consulting firm that led me to start working with Wall Street. And when I was consulting on Wall Street, I created something called socially conscious leadership for emerging talent on Wall Street. And then listening to my heart when I was 40. I gave it all up, gave up the vice president job, gave up college teaching and went to work for Eileen Fisher's women's fashion company. That's where my that's where the journey started. The real journey over the last 10 years. And there were there were Three things, I think that really kind of solidified that, that journey for the path. The first was on my first day. So I gone on an eight-month interview. And on my first day, after I got the job, my two bosses sat me down. And they said, Sean, we want to just we want to acknowledge that you have proven yourself in the interview process. Now, we want you to stop proving yourself and learn how to be who you actually are. We want to see the real you. When we interviewed, you showed us your heart, and you showed us your polish, we hired you for your heart, and we want to see less of your polish. So I mean, reality. Who says that? How many people here that incorporations? And how many men have been told that? Right? So that was really permission, I say, that was my permission moment. Then working in the Fisher, I was there for five years. I just knew the culture was so strong that I and everyone was transforming. But men in particular, were transforming. And they would say things like, you know, and I'd say, Hey, yo, I'm trans, I'm changing, are you changing? And they would say, Yeah, you know, I am my wife said, and it would always start with my wife, or my girlfriend said, My wife said that I'm more patient, I listened differently. I stopped needing to be right all the time. And I started to be more curious, I started to express myself more as far as my emotions more freely. Um, they also say, you know, I noticed that I was more creative. And I was able to tap in to solve problems in a new way. But whatever one of the men said was, and I feel more comfortable in my own skin. And that's where I knew there was something in the culture now, and Fisher also sent me into an artist commune in Canada for five months, and to learn how to incorporate the arts in a creative facilitation. And that's where I heard the call to work with men, they have to understand, I left Wall Street to work for Eileen Fisher, and an accompanying was at 83% women because I didn't want to work with men again. You know, I was like, I'm done with this. So the getting the message, no, you're supposed to take all these lessons and bring this to men, which is what I what I, where I heard the call, I knew this was above my paygrade. And I knew this was a spiritual journey. This was, this was part of the spiritual path. And I knew that, you know, when I look at what's happening in society, and that systems around us, the oppressive systems are crumbling around us. And they don't need to be rebuilt, they need to be reimagined from a place of deeper consciousness. When I work backwards, what's the Achilles heel holding that back, you know, the systems that, that were created, and lightning, essentially white men in power, holding on to power from a place of wounding and a place of healing. So if we didn't go to that place, and start to heal the wounds, that can create a ripple effect that then can be helpful as we start to transform systems, across organizations across societies. And so that was my motivation. And that was why I went to, I went to seminary for one reason, which was to do my spiritual grounding work to hold space for men to do their spiritual grounding work. Because I believe this work needs to not just be done at a psychological, psychological standpoint, but from a spiritual standpoint. And this is a psycho-spiritual approach that, that I take in the work. And that went to I went to seminary, and then two days after I graduated from seminary, I'm sorry, two days before I sent my vows. Two days before I graduated, I got a video friend of mine sent me a video and I was moving from the East Harlem, New York to West Asheville, North Carolina. Exactly, a little bit of a different, and it was a video from the was the chief of police. They just come in and destroy the medic 10. At Black Lives Matter protests made national news. And they this was an apology and asking members of the community to be part of police reform efforts in Nashville. And in seminary, they say when you hear the call, you say yes, no matter what. So the next morning, I sent him an email. But I opened up with, you know, moving from Spanish Harlem, New York, New York to West Asheville, North Carolina, and my best friend in London, who's mixed race will visit me in New York, but won't visit me in Nashville because he's afraid of being murdered by your police. And I said, you know, and I went in to, you know, I understand that most officers are there to truly serve and protect, but at this point, and this was three months after George Floyd, so I said, you know, all he sees in Europe is that week he'll black matter are police officers killed black men. It's not a lot more context than that over in Europe, you know, that we have here in the States and flip side of it. I said, because I can assure him of his safety, I need to be part of this effort. So that led to because of my background and credentials, I was able to have a one-on-one with the chief of police when I got to Asheville. And he had two asks for me in the conversation, said, One, Sean, can you help me deepen the level of compassion among my officers? And two, can you create conversations between community members and officers, they humanize each other in a way that they can create a new relationship going forward. I said yes. And unfortunately, Asheville lost 60 officers, 60-80 officers, in about six months to retirements and resignations. They didn't have the bandwidth. But the way the universe works, a group of us formed an alliance based on that request. And we formed Project Compassion, which is a network of us that are committed to deepening compassion and police departments across the country. So it's myself, the former hostage, hostage negotiator for the FBI, the former head of the National Academy of the FBI at Quantico, a military officer who worked a cultural transformation work with military security forces, and someone from great places to work as a cultural expert. And someone who's worked administratively and Charlotte and Atlanta police departments, and sort of the group of us came together. And now we're doing this work. And then that work led me to work with military. And that work led me to start working with meeting more avowed white nationalists, and far right extremists. And, you know, just coming through the work. And I now as a queer progressive minister, tend to work with white nationalist bar extremists and conservatives. On how to deepen compassion, and I'm really bringing in the message of love, compassion, and how do we tap into our deepest humanity in those hypermasculine spaces, and I often say, in trying to reach the hardest to hardest to reach and hardest to love men. How can we bring this message of love forward so that we can start to build the bridges that we need to bridge and through compassion? And how can we start to transform the systems that need to be evolved?
Kim Meninger
I have so many follow-up questions. But I want to take you back and ask you because one of the themes that I'm hearing in your story is courageousness, right? Like how did you manage your own ego throughout so many steps in your journey, I think about you coming out as gay at 15 at a very different time. Great. You know, I think about you rejecting or recognizing that if you took jobs for the material trappings that it wasn't going to make you happy, right, which is really standing up to society in a way that many people aren't comfortable doing. Because of that, especially men, when there's often judgment about not meeting expectations, you're the change work that you're doing with, you know, people that a lot of people have written off, right, that just assume people assume that they're just not open to change. Like I just as you've gone through your journey, are you conscious of sort of being aware that those were courageous steps? Like did you struggle at all with them?
Sean Harvey
Hmm. What was it I struggle? Of course? I mean, I don't talk about the, I'll talk about the other side of it. In a minute. I don't I don't think I thought I don't think I would have named it as courageous. I think where I started this conversation, I saw the world differently. And I was, I was reminded that I saw the world differently. And I think I had to have a different level of acceptance that I was walking a path. I was, I was not included in what most, most people my age were included in. I didn't have the same experiences. I was ostracized. I was hated. I was bullied. I mean, it was called f— f— on stage when I was getting my diploma for my degree, and I'm like, praying my mother didn't hear it. You know, but I also know that I have a really strong inner compass. And I was able to, I've always been a deep thinker. And I've always, always a sensitive guy. So I was able probably to attune to things differently than most guys. It's probably why I could see things differently. Um, and so I think it was more survival to do these things, and a sense of duty and responsibility. That was courage.
Kim Meninger
Mm-hmm. That's really interesting because you think about how we are all products of our experiences. And I can imagine with the kind of bullying and hate that you experienced, that could have taken you down a very different path.
Sean Harvey
Well, and so let's talk about what's talked about that other path, though. So what I did, I think, in my if I were I was, because I don't, I don't think I feel comfortable in my own skin. And so I started doing my work in my 40s. So I think I always felt like I was an imposter. For up until and probably to my mid-early to mid-40s. Um, and what I mean by that is, I knew how to look good on paper. I knew how to get the right credentials, I knew how to get the right achievements. I knew how to network in a very strategic way. So I knew how to make things happen in a way that looked good. I developed a very strong, healthy, maybe not so healthy, but very strong. professional life, academic life professional life that looked good on paper. My personal life was anemic. I didn't attend to my personal life, I don't think I think the consequence and cost was I didn't think I deserved good quality, personal life. I didn't deserve a relationship. I didn't deserve quality friendships. And so my, my professional life was very well developed. My personal life was very anemic. I struggled with struggling for years with addiction. Be it food, television, sex, drugs. The only thing I don't think I really got into was alcohol. And so those then, then part of dealing with the addiction and getting to the root, you know, and it really wasn't even in the times that I tried 12-step programs. It wasn't the 12-step programs that helped me because I was so afraid of being in community. I always thought it was an outsider who wasn't welcomed and didn't belong. Right? Which probably allows me to do some of the work that I can do because I know understand that experience not hypothetically but, but viscerally right, um, and it's funny because now I'm trying to help heal the men the type of men that were my bullies [Yeah] right? So the way it comes back around but I bet it was. I mean I, but I also think the suffering that I went through the struggle I went through behind the scenes that I didn't show the world that's what has given me the, the capacity of compassion for the struggles that many men experience and so being able to just kind of be there and hold space, be there and witness, be there and support without having an agenda. I'm just allowing these men to, to be able to connect in a different way. And even when I talk to conservatives or white nationalist with, with a common thing I hear is that Hi, they find me non-threatening and I they feel safe opening up to me.
Kim Meninger
Why how why did they talk to you? How do you build trust given the difference in your identity, your beliefs, your experience, right? Like what why did they talk to you?
Sean Harvey
Hmm. I think one because I look like them. I think two because I defy a lot of the stereotypes and I have a gay man. I think three because I have an energy that's inviting, I think four because I've done the work. I think five because when I see them, I see them in their humanity, I don't see them in their in their views. And I offer an invitation, I think the other part is that I've done a lot of work to integrate the masculine-feminine. Or if you don't like that language, I've done a lot of work to just become integrated as a human. And I think for a lot of them that haven't been able to do that integration, they can feel that energy, and they're like, there's something there. I'm curious. And that I think, also I, you know, my story is intriguing. And that I'm really, I believe in the work of compassion and bridge-building. So I'm not coming in to try to convert, I mean, my boyfriend is a matter Republican. So like, I'm learning firsthand, in so many ways, as a progressive how to make, you know, the how to do the bridge building, how to connect how, even if I am diametrically opposed to the views, that I'm able to be someone who can create an invitation. Because I can see the humanity, I can see their compassion, I can see the quality of person they are. Even if our values don't align.
Kim Meninger
What role does masculinity play? In this conversation? I know, you and I talked a little bit about just I think it is like the laws of masculinity that keep men trapped in these expectations that don't serve them, and certainly don't serve others as well. So, so how do you see masculinity and its role in a lot of the challenges that we see in men? And then the ripple effects beyond that?
Sean Harvey
Well, I think, you know, masculinity is just a construct that we that, that tells men, how he knows it's coming from all the messages we receive. It's coming from how men have interpreted what it means to be a man. When I think about masculinity and femininity, when I, when I talk to women, I don't hear women talk about the feminine. I hear women being in relationship with the divine feminine or the feminine. I think for men, what I've, what I've noticed is a lot of men have taken masculinity as their identity, as opposed to they're in relationship to this construct that has that is just a construct. But I think that taking it on as an identity. That's where it becomes problematic in the condition. So I often don't talk about the I don't really talk about masculinity that much. Because I also know that when I started this work, someone said to me, Sean, is a professor at one of the campus, the UC campuses in California. He said, There's one thing you can never do in this work with men. Never sound like a gender studies professor. Hey, I'm part of that. And then when I it's been confirmed, when you talk about masculinity, men check out the conversation. Right? But when you talk about the manifestations of what happened, what's going on in their lives, where are they struggling? Where are they suffering? You can always pull it back to say, part of our conditioning has constructed us so that we have a limited view of who we actually are. Right? I think that's, that's an easier way in with a lot of guys, then talking about masculinity. Because I think what's what we're seeing is a deidentification that's really hard for a lot of men to grasp. And such a connection to identity, they're afraid of losing that identity because that identity has given them a value of who they are and their worth. Because I think what we see for a lot of men is that identity and worth come from external factors. There's not a lot of inner work doing being done until they are ready to do the inner work. But when you really talk to men, when I really talk to men, it's, it's so much of it is the comparison of, of when I look at other, other men or other people, what do they have? What do I have? How do I compare? How do I measure up? So when you take the masculinity out, that's my definition of manhood. That's who I am. My self-worth and like who am I? And that requires men to then start to explore who they are, right? So I think it's, I think it, I think the conditioning plays into this. Um, and I think a lot of I mean, a lot of the books that are out there on masculinity today, it's still an intellectual exercise where we're, where we're intellectually challenging and fine-tuning and wordsmithing, and coming up with the new way forward. But I think the reality for a lot of guys is, they just need an acknowledgment of their experience. They need an acknowledgment of their pain. They need someone to witness them for who they are in their totality, without judgment, and to be able to help them walk, walk from, from a place of their, their, where they're great, and also where they're in their shadow. My, so I think it's a, it's seen them in their, in their whole selves. And I think what we do for each other is we are mirrors or reminders of each other's humanity. I mean, one of the chapters I one of the sections in my book, I talk about seeing the world with childlike wonder. I think part of the work is going back to reclaiming the things that we have rejected because of this conditioning. Because of this constriction, where we've lost the aspects of ourselves, our emotionality, our, our creativity, our capacity for love, our capacity for compassion, like all of that is we had that when we were born. We lost it over time, but we can be reminders of it. And so I think when, when I think we're honestly, when, when men who model, what it means to be integrated, what it means to come into our full selves. We, we can model that we can show men that there's another way to be. The key is I think the other fear being besides D identification is emasculation. And I think a lot of times what I see in a lot of this work is we're either taking a hyper-masculine approach, approach to beat your emotions out of you are hyper-feminine approach, approach that demonizes the masculine? Yeah. And there's an emasculation that happens that a lot of men are terrified of. So when you when you can, when you can model the integration of strength and tenderness. And it's not one or the other. And that this is what the full humanity can look like, I think, to your earlier question, why, why did they feel safe with me? Why do they why do they talk to me? I think because I model something for them that they don't have, that is attractive, and shows that there's another way to have more capacity as a human being.
Kim Meninger
This is just so fascinating. And I think about this a lot you're working with, you know, extreme versions of men for lack of a better way of expressing it, right, you're talking about the hyper-masculine, I think about this in the everyday workplace. And you and I started to talk about this before we hit record. Yeah, I, I feel like, as a society, we have spent a lot of time redefining what it means to be a woman. Women had a, you know, traditional place in the home and, and, you know, we've been making progress over the years of women have the flexibility to be corporate powerhouses, or to work part-time or to stay home with their kids and, you know, any combination there. We are now, in, in a place where we are putting a lot of pressure on men to create more space. But we have not redefined what it means to be a man in today's society in a way that makes men feel safe to make the kind of compromises that we're asking of that. So I think we operate on these assumptions that you know, men are, are fully healthy and you know, their, their egos are not fragile, and that there, there are no there's no pain or insecurity in the male experience in today's workplace, and that they just need to share a little bit more. And so, you know, as we think about how to approach DEI going forward through a more human lens, what are we missing when we leave men out of the conversation or when we don't acknowledge that men struggle too?
Sean Harvey
Well, you know, as we were saying, earlier, or before we got on the on the call, I think we're, we're not accounting for where men actually are. Right? And we are in such a pursuit of inclusion and justice and writing injustice. Right? The, I think one thing we're missing is the compassion and grace and that process. And what does it mean to be inclusive of everyone? And every perspective in their authenticity? So I think then, then we look at men, I don't think we've given them space, to your point to grapple with what some of these things mean. And so, you know, I often when I want to talk to men around gender and gender equity. Before we even get to an equity conversation, we need to just have a conversation on what's your relationship to gender? What's your relationship to your gender? And then let's have a conversation around the shifting roles and roles and expectations around gender, manhood, masculinity and power. Because men, men often aren't asked those questions. We're asked about privilege, we're asked about oppression, we're asked about, you know, authenticity. But we're not actually asked pointed questions around, alright, the world's changing around you. You're probably you could be lost, confused, frustrated, angry, or fearful of losing what you've had? Has there been a space for you to even have that conversation? Around what is and what's changing? And then from there, then to say? And more importantly, than do you understand it? How do you feel about it? You know, we don't actually ask men questions a lot of time around how they feel about the things that they're experiencing. Then we can start to say, now let's start to look at what's the impact of that. What's the possibility for that? And then we can start to say, Okay, now let's talk about, you know, and to be able to look at this, you know, my belief is this some hard stuff. This is where we have the compassion, this is where we have the, if we're going to look at the wrongness of some of this, and the realities of some of this, and the fears and the anger of some of this, and potentially this shift, especially when it's when we talk about the shame of some of this. That's where the compassion and self-compassion work is so needed, to be able to hold it from a place of gentle compassion, and humane compassion. And then that modeling could then say, as men have the capacity to have more compassion for themselves, they're going to have more compassion to give into the world. And this is also going to relax the ego enough that then you're not going to be in automatic pilot, knee-jerk reaction in your defenses, but you're going to be able to hold and respond to and not just react. So I think this is this is part of what, what can be helpful. And I'm not, I'm not even sure if I mean DEI now is, it feels like it's at a crossroads of where it is, what it wants to be, what it needs to be. What I find when I work with progressives, moderates or conservatives, is that the humanity work, the compassionate humanity work has a different resonance and is inclusive of inclusion but it's a bigger pot that really does include everyone. And I think when we can get I was just, I was just in a meeting in DC, sitting with White House officials and funders, and we were talking about how do we create a national initiative to engage men around healthy masculinity. And one of my observations was, it was a very progressive group of folks. challenge was, there was an us versus them progressives and conservatives. Problem is there was a value judgment of which was right and which was wrong. My it was implicit, it wasn't that it was explicit so much. I think the, the, the reality is, as we're in these conversations, and we want to create these initiatives that include everyone. So we have to give the neath identity and politics and we have to get to the shared humanity of our collective we and it just has to be at a different level. But I think we'll create a different type of invitation. And then the other work that needs to happen around how do we write injustice? How do we raise? How do we create space so that all voices can be heard? How do we give voice? How do we give a voice to the voiceless? That work is still there. But right now, I think both sides are or we are so polarized and so divided, that we're not going to make the progress we want to make, to really create a more loving, compassionate, just the world in the way that we're doing it right now.
Kim Meninger
Yeah, I think about that a lot of people don't change because they're told that they're wrong. Don't change because they're shouted at and not heard, right? And so, so this is a really important part of this conversation. Because if we agree that we are all invested in creating more inclusion for everybody, you have to listen, you have to listen better. And I think that's a part that's missing. And I'm curious if you think just based on your own experience in the workplace, is there a place for this conversation at work? Do you think it needs to happen outside of work? Or can, can these conversations happen? I'm thinking about it in the same in the way that we have employee resource groups today that focus on different dimensions of identity. And, you know, white men are not often included in a lot of those conversations, do you see a place for this conversation in today's workplace?
Sean Harvey
So I'm giving, I'm giving a talk to a power company, and a couple of weeks on how to engage men around Dei. And it's then designed for white men that, that live in rural areas to be able to engage in these conversations. And so, do we create ERGs or affinity groups around men?
Kim Meninger
You know, I often I often think about it. What if there was a circle around men's well-being?
Sean Harvey
You know, maybe it's different than the DEI conversation? Because I think that that is that is a different intention. Right? But at the same time, what if there, I mean, as we're moving into spaces, talking about the well-being of employees with burnout, with lack of engagement with health issues with mental health, with mental health challenges becoming more and more talked about? Right, as we look at the increasing levels of suicide rates, as we look at the addiction rates, as we look at the depression rates, the trauma rates, as we take them to take a more informed approach around trauma, that I think to have circles, circles around well-being to have Fireside Chats around these types of topics. I think that there, there is a place for that. I think we, I think what we're trying to do when, when, when I hear about this question, we're trying to fit something in that's into, into a structure that this may just may or may not be the right structure. But there may be another type of circle, that can be much more effective because I think the conversation goes way beyond the when we talk about men, I think it goes, it goes to identity, I think it goes to self-esteem, I think it goes to pain, I think it goes to struggle. What I find when I, when I work with a group of men. And in my book, The first thing I say like when I start to give like these are steps to the roadmap for healing for men. The first thing I say is create a community find safety in the community of men, to be able to agree cry in front of each other and be held by other men might to be able to go to that place of vulnerability to be able to go to that place of honesty. What I find in that space then, is men will then talk like they a lot of times what, what we really see for men is there's a for many men, there's an epidemic of loneliness is an epidemic of, of isolation and going it alone. To break that down so that men can start to feel a sense of community. Men can start to have relationships, friendships with men on a deeper level. Men can feel safe being open and vulnerable. What they find is like, Oh, wow, I'm not the only one suffering with this, I'm not the only one struggling with this. And this, you know, in recovery, they often talk about terminal uniqueness breaking down that terminal uniqueness. I'm the only one that has this issue. And then it opens the doors, you know, and then in the work I do with men, you know, I take men on solid ventures, and we go to outdoor adventure, where we do deeper male bonding, and we have soul connecting conversations. So either physics, physics, philosophy, philosophical, existential, or spiritual awakening discussions, right? But I like to call practical spirituality for dudes. Because I think a lot of times, there's also just a lot of men are in spiritual crisis. You know, and from that standpoint of, when I go to a church, what I notice is it's often now 80% women, going to church, in many churches that I've gone to least mainline churches, maybe not mega-churches, or evangelical Christian churches. But me majority of women tend to be older. And then my question becomes, so where do men go for spiritual community? Where do men go to have a sense of community that they can, and the way they're living their lives? Ask themselves? What's my moral compass? You know, when they're trying to make sense. When they're trying to make sense of what happened this weekend. You know, tragedy massacres. From a secular perspective, it's one conversation from a spiritual conversation. That's a whole other dimension of how do you engage in that with others. And so I think that, and I think spirituality is starting to make its way to be more mainstream. And we're starting to talk about spirituality in the workplace more, we're starting to talk about the love in the workplace more, leading with love. So I think it's still on the fringe for a lot of organizations. And at the same time, it's starting to make its way into organizations more and more. And so I think in this work, there is an opportunity to have spaces today have this… Siri wanted to come in, I guess… the opportunity for more of the honest more the real conversations.
Kim Meninger
So I have kind of have a final question for you and then want to wrap up with a, you know, where we can find you. Yeah, are you optimistic? I mean, we live in such a polarized country right now that all of the talk is so negative, everyone's so angry, there's so much hate and vitriol, you're, you're on the front lines of a lot of this work. Are you optimistic?
Sean Harvey
I am. Sorry, that I'd say that I'm a politically because I was saying this to someone earlier today. We're seeing a lot of things break down. You know, we're seeing a lot of the old systems break down, we're seeing what's no longer working and serving us in society, in America, and society around the world. We're seeing a push by those who are clinging on to the old to hold on to the old. And yet we're seeing from, from younger folks and more progressive folks, a new way forward, or new ways forward. I think with each tragedy, where I see hope, is what comes after the tragedy. Who surfaces who comes to the surface? Who is activated? Who is engaged? Who has the capacity be a change agent for what needs to happen in, in light of the tragedy? And so how, how. So yes, I do have hope. I think it's going to get uglier before it gets better. So I'm also not I'm realistic about it. I think we have more breakdowns to happen before we get to the breakthroughs. Right. There's more for us to work through. But at the same time, I Um, there's a lot of things that give me hope. There's a lot of things that give me hope around the, the, the, the conscious folks that I see that are committed to this work every day. The attention we're giving to burnout, the attention we're giving to trauma, the attention we're giving to the things that in the past would have, would have taken people out of the equation. And yet, we're talking about the self-care so people can stay in the equation. Right? So I think our sophistication is growing. I think there's there is a committed force of, of people in the world that want to see powerful change that lifts everyone up. I believe that love will always outweigh fear and hate. And when someone is coming from a place of fear and hate, they are they are they? What I see as a life of suffering. Right. There's an organization that I'm connecting with, called Life After Hate. And it's recovering extremist, hate group extremist. And so my question becomes, what is the thing that sparked them to say I want to live a different life? What is the way that they became disillusioned with their old way of life? So when we talk about the suffering, versus anything else, that's an opportunity for healing. And when more and more people have seeds planted to heal, that healing can then start to create a ripple. And I see more and more men committed and being called to work with men around their healing in very different ways today. And then also, I think men's work is at a crossroads, because now we have trans and non-binary folks. So it's a whole other, other idea to say, all right, how does this work? Work with men in light of everything that's shifting around? So again, going back to the How are men navigating the shifts around them? Yeah. So, so that was a long way of saying, Yes, I am optimistic.
Kim Meninger
Well, I'm so grateful to end on a positive note is there's a lot of work to be done. I'm so grateful to you and the work that you're doing and for your willingness to have this conversation with me. Where can people who want more of you find you?
Sean Harvey
So I think easiest way is to go to my website, WarriorCompassion.com. If you want to buy my book, you can go to Amazon, you can either get an ebook or paperback. Um, and you can always email me at Sean, S-e-a-n at warrior compassion.com.
Kim Meninger
Perfect those links will be in the show notes as well. Thank you again, Sean. I really appreciate it.