More Than a Doll: Challenging Gender Stereotypes

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about early messages, the ones that shape how we see ourselves and what we believe is possible. My guest this week is Jodi Bondi Norgaard, author of More Than a Doll and creator of the Go! Go! Sports Girls, a line of empowerment dolls and books designed to challenge gender stereotypes in the toy industry. Jodi shares how a single moment in a toy store with her daughter opened her eyes to the narrow, and often damaging, images marketed to young girls. From there, she set out to create something different. What followed was a years-long battle with the toy industry. In our conversation, Jodi speaks candidly about the resistance she faced and the assumptions that still dominate product development for kids. We also discuss how these early experiences shape our confidence, identity and ambition. And lastly, we talk about what it means to advocate for change in the face of rejection and how to hold onto your values when the world tells you you’re wrong.

About My Guest

Jodi Bondi Norgaard is an entrepreneur, author, and speaker committed to breaking gender stereotypes and advancing equality. She is the author of More Than a Doll: How Creating a Sports Doll Turned into a Fight to End Gender Stereotypes (Post Hill Press, 2025), a powerful story of perseverance, purpose-led business, and disrupting the status quo.

Jodi founded Dream Big Toy Company and created the award-winning Go! Go! Sports Girls line to inspire confidence and healthy play in girls. Her advocacy has led her to work with the White House Gender Policy Council under the Biden administration and the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, influencing policy and representation in toys, content, and publishing.

A TEDx speaker and contributor to Ms. Magazine, Jodi has been featured on The Today Show, Forbes, and more. She speaks nationwide on entrepreneurship, resilience, and the power of using business to drive cultural change, while fighting for equality for women and girls.

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Connect with Jodi:

Website: https://www.jodibondinorgaard.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodibondinorgaard/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jodibondinorgaard/

Substack: https://jodibondinorgaard.substack.com/

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Jodi. It is so great to have you here today. I would love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, thanks, Kim. I'm really excited to chat with you today as well. And I'm Jodi Bondi Norgaard, and I am the author of a new book that came out in January, More than a Doll: How Creating a Sports Doll Turned into a Fight to End Gender Stereotypes. I'm also the creator of the GO! GO! Sports Girls, dolls and books. They're girl empowerment products for girls. I launched in 2009 um, and my book is really about my journey of sounding the siren that gender inequality doesn't start in our teens or in our 20s. It starts the moment a child can hold a toy, a book or watch a screen. So basically, through my journey, and it was so difficult, I had so many ups and downs and so many it felt like mountains to climb, and anytime I, I got to what I thought was the peak, it was a definite false peak. Is so it is. It is just offering in the back of my book, I have some tools on, you know, how we can get past this. But there are certain reasons why, you know, we're told at a very young age, you know, to be that good little girl to, you know, sit quietly and to follow directions. But that doesn't always pay really, in the, it once we get into the business world or into our careers, that good little girl just doesn't work anymore. So we're kind of set up to question ourselves and, and think, Hmm, it must be me.

Kim Meninger

Mm, you're absolutely right, and I think that that obedience that you're describing serves us really well in school, where the purpose is to follow the rules and learn and do things the way that other people tell us to, right, like make the teacher happy, but then when we go out into the workplace and our managers are looking for our ideas, and the goal is to sort of innovate and challenge the status quo, we have not been given a permission structure throughout our lives to do that, and I often think about the fact that there's no equivalent to boys will be boys for girls, which really implies, like, There they go again, breaking the rules, getting in trouble. It's what boys do, right? But girls, we don't have that leeway, right?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

We have to walk a very fine line. And so one of the things, and maybe you and your listeners will, you know, relate to this, is that when I was younger, I was very well rewarded for my compassion, my sensitivity, you know, my kindness towards others. And you know, I was that kid in school where a new kid would come in to, you know, our class, and my teacher would say, you know, Jody, would you make sure you sit with her for lunch? Or would you make sure he is included in recess, right? So I felt very confident and proud in that, but once I got into high school, I began to hear I was too sensitive, I was too nice, and even my high school guidance counselor told me I was too kind and sweet to go to college and into business, and I was better suited as a secretary or somebody else's assistant just because of that kindness. And I think in our society, we recognize that aggressiveness, that assertiveness, as being leadership skills. And yes, okay, but it also can be the empathy and the compassion and the confidence in that realm, not just in you know, the aggressiveness of you know, you know, you know, tackling some kid, or, you know, doing weird things on the monkey bars. And you know that they say, go, go, go, little boy into little girls. You know, it's like, Oh, be careful, sweetie, right? So, you know, so I do feel that there's this, this cultural shift that makes needs to take place. And, you know, sometimes I see it. I saw it, you know, much more, you know, a couple years ago, and now we're kind of fighting again to, you know, see the benefits in that empathy and that sensitivity. But you know, we all have our strengths, so we shouldn't just push, you know, the sweet kid to the side saying, Yeah, you don't give value just because, you know, you're not aggressive or assertive.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely. And I'm curious, because you took a unique approach to addressing this issue through dolls, right? How did you get there?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, you know, there were many situations in my life that preceded, like the straw that broke the camel's back. I. Yeah to say. But you know, there are many situations in my life, you know, big and small that shaped who I am and how I feel about my gender issues. You know, my own personal experiences with gender inequality, sexism, sexism that has led me to know the importance of girls knowing what their minds and bodies can do versus what their bodies look like. So it was so all, you know, a lot of times in life, we go through and we see something that's wrong, and we just push it aside. And one of my first realizations of this marketing, like when my kids were younger, I have two boys and one girl, and my daughter's in the middle. And when my kids were around that age of six, seven and eight, I started to see this discrepancy in products marketed to girls and products marketed to boys. I started to see products marketed to girls associated with appearance and attractiveness, and products marketed to boys were associated with violence and aggression. My boys were never violent or aggressive, and I didn't want to encourage that. And my daughter was very smart, and I didn't want her to think that all of a sudden she had to, you know, concentrate on her appearance. So one of my first realizations, and this is not my aha moment, but it kind of led me to it just really opened my eyes, it was like a light bulb went off. Was when I was in a toy store looking for a science kit for the kids. There was summer. They were not with me. I was by myself, and I was immediately annoyed because there was a girl science aisle and a boy science aisle. And I thought, seriously, like, when did science now become gender specific. But I didn't make any waves. I said, Okay, that's fine. I go down the boys science aisle, you know, I found the volcano. The packaging looked incredible, right? The boys are having so much fun. The one that you put in the vinegar and the baking soda, it's exploding. There's kids have goggles on. I'm like, Okay, that's a really good outdoor option. But I'm now curious what is down the girl science aisle? Well, sure, you can be a scientist, but you can make your own fingernail polish, your, your own hair scrunchies, your own makeup, your own perfume. Again, it all revolved around appearance. So it was, it was like, I felt like, for the first half of my life, I was just living in a dimly lit room, and I always thought, you know, it has to be me, right? I maybe I just need to buck up. I'm starting to see things that are, you know, not equal. But it I, it must be me, right, like I like I said, I must have to buck up. I must have to change to fit in. And I think for far too long, women have been told to lean in, to change, to fit in. But what I've realized is that we're not broken. It's our culture that's broken, and it's our system that needs to be fixed so that that that is the, you know, as I'm going through my journey, that is what the realization like, once I saw the volcano, you know, the science kits for kids, I'm like, you know, no wonder we have these issues. No wonder there are so many self-help classes for women, self-help books for women, because we're giving these confusing and conflicting messages, starting in a very young age. So now to my aha moment when I was with my daughter who, at the time Grace, who was nine years old. She had just gotten done playing soccer, so she was still dressed in her uniform with her cleats and her shin guards and crazy, messy pigtails. And I tell you that because she looked like a normal kid. On a Saturday afternoon, I had one of those panicky parent moments, and we're running up and down the toy aisle frantically because she needed a wrap birthday gift for a party she was attending in 30 minutes, right? Like we've all been there. And so I, a line of dolls. Just stopped me in my tracks. I, I, I look at the dolls. It was a new line of dolls that had just come out by the guy, Ty Warner, who did the beanie babies. So it was like, you know, like it was a big display. And I was like, What are these dolls they had on short skirts, crop tops, belly button ring, big hair, lots of makeup. I look at my normal-looking kid. I look at these dolls. I pick up one of the dolls on the hang and the name of the hang tag was Lovely Lola, I like, What in the world are we marketing to girls? I'm so done with this. So I pick up another doll, and the name on the hang tag is, you know, Dazzlin Destiny, and then there was Sizzlin Sue and Cute Candy. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. I like, I am just out of my mind. I'm literally having a meltdown in the toy store. So I bought the doll, you know, as I'm scolding all the salespeople just like you, you know, this is crazy that you're marketing sex to girls. And they're like, Yeah, I'm 16, but I brought the doll home to my husband, and I said, Listen, I'm sick and tired of these negative images that are marketed to girls, and I think I can do something about it. And I think I can create a positive image product for girls that encourages them to be healthy, physically, mentally and emotionally, through sports and physical activity. So that's what set me on my path and on my journey. And what I thought was, Wow, I've got the next best idea turned into an incredible battle that I was beginning to fight.

Kim Meninger

Really?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Yeah.

Kim Meninger

Well, I can completely appreciate what you're saying too about the difference in the way that toys are marketed to boys and girls. I only have boys. I have two boys, and we don't have anything pink in our house. And it was always like you said, you know, fighting, or things like that. So it's really hard, because you feel like in either direction, you are fighting the stereotypes, right? I wanted my kids to feel like it was okay to have a doll, or that you didn't have to be violent in order to play. And we have these very strong influences because no matter what we as parents decided they would still come in. You know, whatever they had became a weapon.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

I know, and I, you know, it's there. You know, kids are, you know, so complex. And you know, there are, you know, so many studies out there that say, you know, boys will gravitate to this, and girls will gravitate to this, and whatever. And I get society and kids, it's just about not pigeon-holing them to a certain area. And a lot of people in the toy industry will call the toy industry, you know that we, you know, package childhood for kids. And so I've been really, you know, just asking the toy industry and begging the toy industry, you know, to give girls, you know, something other is, you know. And obviously I was concentrating on the, the doll category, which is one of the biggest selling, you know, markets within the toy industry. And when I did my research, it, you know, when I decided to move forward on the positive image product for girls. When I did my research, I found Rag Dolls, I found baby dolls, and then I found 75 lines of fashion dolls. And that was it. So if they're, you know, it's so my, my point was to them just, I'm not saying you don't have to take one fashion doll off the market. Nobody has to go. But let's give them an option. Let's see where this goes. So, yeah, so.

Kim Meninger

And what did you get for a response?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, I'll be honest, my first sale was amazing. It was to the US Open. So I just called the United States Tennis Association one day, and I said, told I got to the right person within a minute, and then I told her what I was doing. And she said, that's great. We'll take 500 tennis girls, and that was in 2008 and those 500 sold out in six days. And so I knew I had a good test. I knew I had a good product. I just happened to be at that US Open, and I saw little girls carrying them through a, you know, throughout the grounds the tennis at one time there was a little girl in the jumbotron, you know, waving her doll. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing. I truly have the next best thing. And that's what I thought going into Toy Fair in 2009 and I, you know, was ready, prepared every you know, within the toy industry, this is the biggest toy fair throughout the world. So people come from all over to look, to see and to find the next best thing. And I was like, borderline cocky. I'm like, Yeah, it's me. That's me. I can't believe it was that easy, right? Like, I wowza. Not so much. I had so many buyers come to my booth saying, I love your product. My daughter plays soccer. She would love soccer girl. And I'd say, Great. How many would you like to buy? And I'd always get, oh, no, no, no, no, no, it's not going to sell. And I'd say, why? And they said, Well, ultimately, girls like fashion. Can you create a fashion doll? That's my point. As a mother of a daughter and as a woman, I'm positive girls like more than fashion, and don't get me wrong, I love fashion. I love how people express themselves. I. Love how designers are artists. I think it's great. But does it define a woman? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So I, you know, I hung in there. I mean, there are I, I can just read you some of the comments Kim in the beginning of because this is how I started in my, my introduction. So these are some of the, the terms I heard girls who play sports don't play with dolls. Girl empowerment was a trend a few years ago. It's not anymore. You need to add more blonde, blue-eyed dolls and make their legs longer, because just on that one, I measured my daughter and all of her friends that came through the door because I wanted to make sure that the doll was in correct proportion to a little girl's body. [Mm.] So these buyers would say the legs look too short. I'm like, that's because it's in correct proportion. Wow. So and then this one really kills me. Generally, kids who are active don't read. I mean, I have three active kids that read. Yep, and then a sports doll will never sell because girls like fashion. I said that one black dolls don't sell well, which was a horrible, horrible statement to hear because I had two black dolls within my line to the buyers they would say, you know, they you know, they wouldn't sell it, but online, they sold really well. So I knew they were wrong. Like, you know, they were so antiquated. Boys don't read books about girls and which is so sad. And then I love your product, but it'll never sell because it's not mainstream. It's not fashion, and girls, ultimately like fashion. [Wow.], A toy and publishing industry professionals that I heard all of this. [Wow.] So I've just I hung in there Kim for five long years with not a whole lot of sales enough to keep me going. Definitely, I just put everything back into the business, and it was kind of hard because we had three small kids. I was working a ton, and my husband was like, Oh my gosh, you know you're not bringing in any money. And I'm like, I know, but I just know girls and women deserve more.

Kim Meninger

It's so unfortunate when you know that something is a problem and something is like you had tested it and it had proof of concept, right? And you've got these, like you said, antiquated people making judgments. And I think that's part of when you were talking what I was thinking about is, I think sometimes, unless we think about it, we assume that the toy industry is neutral, and this is just another reminder that they have an agenda, and that they're trying to influence purchasing.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, and they're, they're, you know, they're wanting to make money, [yes,] right? So that they are in a wash, rinse, repeat cycle, right? So they don't have a blueprint for a sports doll for girls. They do have blueprints for fashion dolls for girls, right? How do they market this? Right? They know how to do that. So it, yeah, so they, they can be. They are very antiquated and not as innovative as you would think. Which is too bad.

Kim Meninger

It is. It’s too bad it's, it's disappointing and it's, it's a little surprising, in some sense, too.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

There are good things too. I you know, don't get me wrong. There are great things that the toy industry, you know, puts out to kids, but you know, a lot of times, boy, for instance, the LOL dolls, which came out, and I think two, 2017 I don't know, having two boys you may not be familiar with it. It was by the maker of mg, the Bratz dolls. So MGA, and it's a privately owned company, so they there are no financial records out there, except people anticipate they probably made a billion dollars off of this product. But what, what it was, these little dolls, and it was a surprise factor. So you open the little packaging, it was like a landfill nightmare, a parent nightmare. They're all these little things. But the kids thought it was so exciting. And it won the Toy Association Toy of the Year Award at 2007 I think 18, 19, and 20 around that time frame, so three years in a row, and it had this secret, um. They disclosed, the company disclosed a secret color change. So say, you know, you dip a little doll in there that has white hair, you pull it out of cold water, now it has pink hair. But on some of the dolls, they didn't disclose this, it had a secret clothing change. So you dip the doll in and now it would come out with some came out with shackles on her wrists and ankles. Others came out with caution tape on their private parts, with a double tail on her backside. [Oh, my.] Others with sexy lingerie. So I wrote an article about it. So many people called them out on it, and they just said, you know it, they, they just did some, you know, very easy, you know, press control, and said, You know what? We just listened to what, you know, our buyers want. And I don't know any parent that wants their daughter or son to play with it. So it doesn't only affect girls. It affects boys. So to see if so little if little boys see this is how girls are supposed to be, like objectifying them, then that's how they treat them. And little girls seeing that, this is what they're supposed to do. So anyway, they ended that. But I just can't imagine people sitting around a conference table and saying, Yeah, that's a really good idea. [Wow.] So and, I mean, so sexy dolls are alive and kicking in there, you know, other bad ones, but there are also good ones. You know, people they, they do try. I don't want to say, you know there, you know, there aren't good toys out there, because there definitely are good toys out there. There are just some that stand out, and you just think why? You would never give your kid anything harmful to ingest physically or that would hurt, hurt them somehow. But what about your child and their mental health? [Yeah.] That's something too.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, I'm curious, because you have two boys as well. What, what was the conversation with them as you were doing this? And how have they internalized, or, you know, all that, how has their life been affected by the work that you've been doing?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, I think I would like to say that they are the greatest feminists out there, and they understand the inequality that women face. I remember my oldest when he was at a friend's house, and we live in a town where you could ride your bike everywhere. And his friend lived about, I don't know, maybe half a mile away, and it was 10 o'clock at night and, and he's like, Mom, can you come get me? And granted, he was 14 years old, and I said, just take one of their bikes and ride them. Ride home. Who cares? Just ride home. And so he, you know, he does. And then my daughter is at a friend's house, and you know, she's 13 years old and two blocks away, and it's 10 o'clock at night, and she's like, Mom, can you come get me? I'm like, yes, absolutely. Do not walk home. Do not walk home, you know. And I mean, we live in a very nice area, but and my son said to me, he's like, I don't understand. They said, honey, like women are just victims. So often they're just victims. And you know, the statistic holds true. You know, one out of every three women are, you know, sexually assaulted, and that's not okay. Me being one of them, and that it's just not okay. So anyway, I think that they do understand, you know how dangerous it is for, for women and girls versus them. They don't have to worry about where they run during the day. They don't have to worry about going into a parking garage and having your keys between your, you know, your fingers, and just kind of looking behind your back and running in and locking the doors right away. As women, we know that. We know that. There are something I write about in my book too, that it's a story about a woman in London, and there was a serial rapist, and this is just a couple years ago, and so you know, in that in this particular area, they advised all the women to stay inside at night time to protect themselves. Okay? And she just fought back and she said, Absolutely not. What has to happen is that all the men have to stay inside because it's one of you. [Yes.] It's not us, but as women, we're so used to say thinking. Saying, Yes, I have to protect myself. I have to protect my girls. I have to protect my friends, right? Yes, we have to, because that's what we've been trained to do. So the pushback this woman received with the hate mail, the death threats that she received online because of her idea was it was horrible, but I agree with that. [Yeah.] Why do we have to stay inside? You stay, you all figure it out. Because I'm tired of figuring it out.

Kim Meninger

Exactly. So you mentioned doing, doing the work with the dolls for five years. Did you bring that to an end? Where are you now with this journey?

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, after that five year period, I had an opportunity, a crazy opportunity, to pitch to three Walmart buyers, and this was in 2000 and oh my gosh, I'm at 13-14, and I had five minutes. And after the five minutes, they said, This is a winner. If you can write six books to go along with six of the dolls, package them together, we'll put them in Walmart stores. So that was incredible. And I loved working with Walmart. They were awesome. At least the headquarters was awesome. They were awesome. They're super great people. Stores were a different story working with them, but I loved working with Walmart. I still have a good relationship with them, and that's what kind of got the ball rolling by 2016 my I was invited to the White House under the Obama administration to participate in conferences on breaking down gender stereotypes and media and toys. And then my business was acquired in 2000 at the in 2017 and then I thought my story ended there. The, the company is called Jazz wares. It's a big company down in Florida, but they, they were redoing the product. They took all the, the product off just Walmart store shelves, and they were going to redo the dolls, right, and I get it. They wanted to do more of a hard body, which is the plastic versus the plush dolls that I had that just sells better in mass. So I thought, okay, they came up with a great idea, a great plan. And after 18 months, they didn't, never brought it to market, and they decided that they weren't going to go forward with the brand, because they, they hired two new guys, and I convinced one of the guys, I had to re-pitch it to them. I could convince one guy that it was a great idea, and another guy was like, No. He said, this isn't going to work because we do not have a true blueprint to launch a true girl empowerment product. It's never been done before. So they did the right thing, and they returned the intellectual property to me, but that's when I realized my journey's been more than a doll, and that's when I started writing my book. And then, you know, of course, COVID hit, and you know, that's a great time to write a book when you have nothing else to do. And so, yes, and then I speak all over the country on the importance of empowering women and girls and gender equality. And then I ended up working with the gender policy council, with the Biden administration, so in the Geena Davis Institute, we did a study called Equal Play. And it's great, it's on my website, but it just shows that it's just not the toys that influence our kids. It's the marketing, it's the advertising, it's the voiceovers. You know, for boys, it's generally more aggressive and fun. And then for girls, it's calming and nurturing and flowers, you know? So we need to recognize all of these things that go on. And I think my book does just that. It's, it's actually, you know, I feel like I'm handing out flashlights so our dim rooms just keep getting brighter and brighter, and we understand the inequality that we face.

Kim Meninger

That's such a beautiful way to put it. And I love what you're doing. I think it's such a unique way of I, you know, we, there's so many of us trying to tackle this problem from so many different angles. And I think it is a cumulative experience, right? There are, you know, the problem is, is so deep-rooted and so pervasive, and just trying to do your part right based on your unique experience. I love your story. I truly could talk to you all day. I have so many follow-up questions. But in the interest of time, I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, and I, I'd love for you to share where we can find your book, where we can find you, stay connected, and follow the work that you're doing.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Yep, I, you can go to my website and find my book, or, or, you know, it's on Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble books, Bookshop, Books a Million, where, wherever you get your books, it's there. It's audio as well. I do not do the audio. I tried. It's not my strength. You gotta know what your strength is or your strength is not. So she did a great job. Yes, my website, you can always contact me through there, ask questions, follow me on Substack, social media. I write for Ms. magazine, and yeah, just I love the support. It's hard. It is. It's sometimes I just wrote an article for Ms. It was just last week, and you know, just about the, you know, I'm tired, right, but it's okay to rest when we're tired, and it's not okay to give up. So I will never give up. But I did rest for the month of, of, of July. I was, I'll be honest, I was pretty mentally frazzled, and a lot of it had to do because I did a book tour. So I was just, and everything else that's going on, I was just, wow, wow, wow, wow. So it's okay to rest, but it's not okay to give up.

Kim Meninger

I love that. Thank you so much for the work you're doing, for the inspiration that you're giving all of us. I really appreciate it, Jody.

Jodi Bondi Norgaard

Well, thanks for having me. Kim.