Rethinking Allyship at Work

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about allyship. My guest this week is Julie Kratz, founder of Next Pivot Point and a longtime inclusion and allyship strategist. Julie pulls back the curtain on why words like “inclusion” and “ally” have become so charged, what’s actually legal in this space, and how leaders at every level can use the power they already have to create cultures where people belong. We explore “power with” versus “power over,” how to spot your own sources of power, and why going back to basics like trust, self-awareness and clear measurement is the most practical way forward right now. We also discuss how to meet persuadable people where they are, start with a personal why, and build momentum together instead of burning out as a lone voice.

About My Guest

Julie Kratz has dedicated her career to allyship and inclusion. After spending 12 years in Corporate America experiencing many career “pivot points,” due to her own lack of belonging, she started her own speaking business with the goal of helping leaders be better allies. Promoting allyship in the workplace, she helps organizations foster more inclusive environments so that everyone can feel seen, heard and belonging.

Julie is a professor at the Indiana University Kelley School of Business, hosts a regular Forbes column on allyship, is a frequent keynote speaker, podcast host and TEDx speaker. She is also the creator of the Lead Like an Ally training program and the Founder of the annual International Allyship Day program in NYC.

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Website: www.nextpivotpoint.com

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Welcome, Julie. It's so great to have you here today. I would love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah. Well, thanks for having me and yeah, my background, I did the corporate thing coming out of college. I thought, like most aspiring leaders, that we wanted to climb the corporate ladder, and so I diligently, kind of managed my career and did all the checked, all the boxes that you're supposed to do to advance and be promoted. And after four years and being moved multiple times and achieving some success as by way of promotions, I just decided to take a pause go back to school. So that's when I got my MBA, and I studied marketing, which was kind of interesting because I came out of school doing strategy work and consulting work, as often we find our ways into different types of works than we actually thought we would, and then eventually just that elusive feeling of like not feeling like I was included or belong in nearly every corporate setting that I was in through the 12 years, I started my own business, and I've had my own business, next pivot point from the last 10 years. So we specialize in inclusion and allyship training programs within organizations, and have got to work. So with some really cool organizations and leaders over the years, you know, Google, Amazon, all sorts of folks and all sorts of leaders that are kind of wrestling with what's next, how can we have a more inclusive workplace? And so really thankful for the work I get to do.

Kim Meninger 

Well, I'm really thankful for the work you're doing, and I know it's got to be even more challenging in this moment than it had been even it's always been challenging work, but especially now, and so I'd love to hear a little bit more about the inclusion the allyship work that you're doing. What are you seeing out there today? Is there still commitment to this word what? You know, we see a lot of dark headlines, but I'm curious, like, what it looks like today.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, yeah. No, you're not wrong. It's it's really interesting that the word inclusion is controversial, that the word ally is controversial. I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding people don't and people fear what they don't understand. And so sometimes, when they hear dei as an acronym, we know that that can elicit unnecessary fear, but when you use the words diversity, equity, inclusion, this less jarring for people like of course, I support that. So what's the really interesting juxtaposition in my work? And I've seen, you know, the roller coaster ride over the last decade. So this isn't new. The backlash started a few years ago, actually, as we've been experiencing hardship for quite some time, this is next level, though, questioning the legality of our work is a big challenge. I've not ever had to work with attorneys as much to review content that they're not an expert in. And I feel that's really unfair to question the legality of something that you haven't defined what it is or what is legal and illegal. And so I think the big misunderstandings that people need to understand is that 190 9% of the work is 100% legal. Attorneys will tell you that there's a few guidelines you can make sure that you're following, but also like it's it's a time when we really need people with power to step up. And if this doesn't feel right to you, if practicing exclusion or not wanting a culture where people feel that they belong in your workplace that doesn't feel viscerally right to you. We really need you to speak up. We really need you to take a stand right now, because people like me, practitioners inside organizations are being muted. They're being silenced. They're being overly supervised, let go titles changing, and so this moment, we really need our allies now more than ever, especially those with power.

Kim Meninger 

So, can you define allyship in your own terms? Because I think that is another one that we hear a lot, but don't necessarily take the time to understand. What do we mean by who? Who's an ally? How do we know if we are an ally? What? You know? What? What are some of the ways that you describe it?

Julie Kratz

Yeah, yeah. And I, I'm a little facetious in my trainings. I don't, I don't love to give my personal definition. I use a very basic one that's kind of a straw man for people to kind of pull from. I think it is a choose your own adventure approach. There's no arrival point where someone's gonna say you're an ally. Here's your certificate, although organizations will try to do that and like, I always kind of cringe, like, that's not how this is supposed to work. It's not a self-proclamation, it's, it's not a it's a journey, not a destination, right? I'm still learning, so I think just accepting that we're all allies in training. You. Even the naysayers that there's like 10% of the population that doesn't believe in allyship. So, like, why focus on them? Let's focus on the 90% that do want and are persuadable towards this cause of essentially supporting people that are different from yourself. That's the basic. And you can take that much deeper. You know, I'll get challenged for people that's not enough. Julie, I'll get challenged for people that's too big. But I say that on purpose, it's using your power for good. Power is a chance to be an ally. And I found in my research that her new book that I wrote that people misunderstand their power one they don't see it because you have it, so it's invisible to you, or it's very visible to others. People underestimate their power, positional power, social influence, proxy to power, identity power. There's so many sources of power, and there's a misunderstanding too, that power is bad, you know, like that I, is somehow like gross to admit that I have power. It's like power is a chance to be an ally. And this is a real entry point to the work. It's an invitation to use your power for good.

Kim Meninger

Well, and I think it's so important that you share that, because I see that a lot too. There is this kind of ick factor associated with power, but I often frame it as power too, as opposed to power over, because I think it's power over that makes us uncomfortable, right? And so there are a lot of people out there who aren't interested in, you know, managing people for its own sake. They don't want to be in control, so to speak. But when you have these other forms of power that you're talking about, it gives us an opportunity to influence and to become a voice for people who don't have that kind of power.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, yeah, that's one of the most powerful concepts from the feedback I've gotten in my new book about people with power and how to be analyzed, is power with versus power over. And so you're exactly right. Power over is like, Oh, I'm going to do this thing for you, and it's centering me in the narrative as the ally, instead of centering the person that's being getting the allyship. And it's continuing to put the spotlight on the person with power. And really, it's not a sustainable model, because you're always having to facilitate whatever help or support the person needs, whereas more sustainable model is a power with model where you share your power, and sharing your power actually grows your power. So by giving it to somebody else, you don't lose it, because now you have somebody that's rising, that you've supported, that's probably going to have a reciprocal effect on you, and that could be mentorship, that could be sponsoring somebody, that could be advocating for someone else's career or needs, or, you know, coaching, putting up the mirror and helping people see maybe what they don't quite see in themselves just yet, and getting over imposter syndrome is, I'm sure you can appreciate. That's something that my allies helped me with a ton. You know, when I reflected on my corporate America experiences, the only reason I survived as long as I did is because I had amazing allies, and still to this day, and the introductions, the opportunities that my allies have made for me has absolutely contributed to my success. We find our opportunities through people, not through posting randomly online with AI scrubbers and all these things. It's people that create the opportunities for us and so finding our way to our allies now, and that power with approach is so critical.

Kim Meninger 

So for people who are questioning whether they have power or what forms of power they might have, like, is there a way to check in with yourself on that? Like, is there a way to sort of assess whether or not you have power and then in what ways?

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, no, that's a great question. There's a lot of different power models out there. I found. So I am. I'm not an expert in power structure. It's allyship, but the power keys just came up so profoundly. And so one of the inventories I have people do, and this can backfire sometimes if you don't facilitate this really carefully, but one of the exercises I do is just a dimensions of power inventory with folks. And so if listeners, if you've seen something like a privilege walk, which we don't do those for obvious reasons anymore, but if you've participated in something like that, it's similar, but different. And the reason it's different is how I frame it is, take an inventory, and I have like, 12 different dimensions, and I kind of float them up as like little towers, and at the top of the towers, you know, a more access to point to power, so like race, so the white people at the top, the bottom, more historically marginalized groups, black or brown. You do the same with disability, neuro divergence, socioeconomic class, gender, of course, LGBTQ at. List goes on right and so you can, you could even create your own dimensions at your organization and make them as broad as possible. Age is something that is relatable across all most humans. So find things that aren't polarizing, like race and gender. I think we realized with the backlash, we really hit hard on those, and those are very important parts of identity. But for obvious reasons, white guys are kind of like, Oh, this isn't for me. And so make it broad and structure it in a way that people understand. It's not a bad thing. It's not a comparison game. This isn't my scores worse or better than yours. It's really, hey, how do I do in these 12 dimensions of power? And for me, nine of the 12 I have at the top of the power, right? And so that's a chance to be an ally. And then what I do is lead people through an exercise of how, what kind of ally Do you want to be? How do you want to use that power for good? And I talk about the different ally roles and how to show up in those roles. And so I had a participant in the workshop recently, say, Julie, I've been through that exercise before, the power dimensions, or maybe it was called privilege, or sometimes they just say the P word just to not trigger anybody. I've been through this before, and it was awful, and I felt ashamed, and I felt terrible walking out of the room. But when you showed me the umbrella with all these different roles and things I could do with it. I made the connection of like, oh, I can help. And I thought we were always doing that, but clearly some weird work has happened in years. So I think it's just really insightful that you don't leave people to just sit in that give them something to do with it, and can't really tell people what to do. I really struggle with this number one question I get is, like, just to get is, like, just truly tell me how to be an ally. And it's like, it's very nuanced. It's very personal. Like, it could look very different for the person you're trying to be an ally for than, like, what you think support looks like. So there's no inventory. But I do think if you can give people some entry point ideas, it really gets the comfort level up so that you can have a more brave conversation.

Kim Meninger 

Yeah, I think you're hitting on a lot of the hidden challenges that I think are really important. Because on the surface, like you said, Who Wouldn't you know there there's a small fraction of people who resist what we're talking about, right outright, but I think that one of the things that I think about a lot is just that people feel, and it's all subjective, right? People feel very stressed and overwhelmed right now, and I think a lot of people feel like they are not in a position of power, as we've been talking about. I think the economic uncertainty is making people feel really unstable in their jobs. I think people are under a lot of pressure. Work conditions are not you know, everybody's working way more hours than they can afford to, with little self-care. And so one of the things that I think about a lot is that in order to get people to think about others right, is you have to be taking care of your own needs first, right? Like you cannot. It's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like, if you're not meeting your own basic needs, you're not going to be thoughtful about what someone else needs and how you can best support them. And I wonder if you think about that as part of your work too, and if you're seeing anything out within organizations just around basic stress management and just giving people the tools to take care of themselves so that they can be of greater service to others?

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, yeah, I am seeing that, and it's only going to get worse. You know, there's, there's some behaviors that are being modeled right now from a high level that are very toxic and harmful, and I think that's the most surprising thing, is to see the lack of courage by business leaders to stand up and speak truth to power. But for now, some of the research that I'm seeing is that, you know, we're kind of reverting back to that chain of command style of leadership where don't ask questions your thank yous your paycheck. Like work, long hours, hard work, pays off myth of meritocracy, like and I struggle because the pendulum swings right and so did we get to like, feeling oriented. And now this is the over-correction. Okay, there's somewhere in between, right? And at that, at the fundamental level with my work, it's always been, what business problem are we trying to solve? And if you can map training and support. So what the business problem is? Like you mentioned, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. What is that costing us if people don't feel taken care of? I mean, there is a cost associated with that. It's hitting somewhere. It's hitting your retention numbers. It's hitting in your recruiting numbers. It's hitting, hitting in your engagement numbers, wherever. Is, get some data, get some intel, get some, you know, qualitative data, some focus groups, whatever it is, and figure out what the business problem is, and if it is stress management or emotional management, or I'm teaching a class on decision making right now, which has been fascinating. Map that curriculum to that problem and measure it. Measure what you're able to do at the beginning and at the end. Are you able to improve the knowledge what's that worth to the business? Are you able to improve the ability to practice the confidence level with these skills? If you had better decision makers on your team, less stressed people on your team. I mean, imagine what that would look like, and if we can quantify that, and I think, tell the story, and get away from all these like shenanigans and the headlines and all these weird perceptions of what's legal and not legal, because, I mean, I'm going back to the basics. I taught this curriculum for over 10 years and a very thought-provoked, like provoking clients that were very edgy a few years ago, they're now, like, Julie, can you just come in and talk about trust? It's like, oh, I mean, yeah, because if you don't have that, I mean, everything else is pointless. So okay, like, I'll meet you there, but I know you're better than, like, not better, but I know you're further along than that. But going back to the basics, mapping into a problem, and then the measurement piece, I think, is really important. We've always struggled with that in the training and development world, and that's why our budgets are, like, the first to get slashed, because people just see it as this, like additive. We've got to get better about measurement. Heck. I mean, AI's got amazing tools. Let's use them. Let's be disciplined with this work. A lot of us, I think, kind of get in our head, you know, the academic types pedagogy and, you know, all these fancy things. It's like, Yeah, but what did it do?

Kim Meninger 

No, you're right. It is a perpetual challenge. And I think there's still just, even going back to what you said about the command and control model, I still think that there is a good number of people, or at least people who are unwilling to challenge those in power that believe that it's this either or proposition, right? And that like, Oh, we don't have time to do this touchy-feely kind of work because we've got important business to do, and really seeing it as a distraction from that, as opposed to something that's actually going to improve your ability to achieve the results that you're looking for.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, yeah, it's an either or. It's, it's not, it's a both. And so one of the things I talk about a lot with inclusive leadership and allyship is it's paradoxical, and we need leaders to embrace paradox right now. It's not you're good, you're bad, you're soft, you're I don't even know what the opposite of that would be. It's just it's not an either or. You can do both of these things the same time. You can be an absolutely strong leader and be incredibly empathetic. Those things can absolutely go hand in hand. I've seen it many, many times now. Is that being Reverend right now, probably not so much, right? It feels like we got to have a hard, crispy shell to endure all of these, you know, just real big challenges. And so I think it is embracing paradox. I think leaders that can embrace paradox, Renee Brown's done some amazing research on this, where she finds it's one of the most highly correlated variables to leadership performance is the ability to say yes and, and tether, because our brains don't like that. Our brains don't love just the cognitive dissonance. We don't love to think we know something and then something else is true too. It's really hard to hold that space. And something I've been practicing, it's hard for me too, right? I want to say, Well, if you voted this way, I don't want to have nothing to do with you, right? I think a lot of us right now, well, we're not going to get further along in advance the things I personally care about that are highly aligned with my values. If I just keep talking to that ego chamber, you could vote a different way and also be somebody that I could have a relationship with. I'm struggling with that right now. Those two things can happen. And I just think if we had more curiosity, right? If we just exercise more curiosity instead of judgment. You know, from Ted Lasso of listeners, if you've ever watched that, it's just our brains can't do both things at the same time. So if you're curious, you kind of turn off the judgment mode and can go with the flow a little bit more. And like, I think at the end of the day, people just want to be their like human selves at work, and to have all these unnecessary constraints and hindrances to that is just a disservice to humanity.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, you're right, and I appreciate your sharing how challenging it is for you to, to hold those opposing views, because I have a similar struggle, and I think it's, it's important, though very hard. Hard to remember that this is a journey and that not everyone is in the same place on the journey. And I think there is, unfortunately, and this has contributed, I think in large part, to a lot of the backlash is there is an element of the work that is very judgmental and that makes people feel unsafe, or, you know, it makes them feel demonized. And, you know, there you, you made a really good point earlier, too, about, you know, focus on the persuadables. And I think there are a lot of persuadables out there that have been turned off by some of the rhetoric. And I, I've seen and read work and, you know, things that have, I have felt have been, you know, sort of off-putting. And I think, Gosh, I'm a true believer. What must people who are a little bit early, you know, earlier in the journey, going to think when they approach this information? And so I, you know, I really think that it to your point. If we want to achieve the vision that we're talking about, we have to get better at suspending judgment and giving people space to, to get there at their own pace.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think what happened with George Floyd in the summer of 2020 if I had to put my finger on what the problem is, hindsight, right? Is 2020 so it's not fair. But I think us DEI people. I mean, that door got swung wide open and we're like, we're going to cram as much stuff in there while it's open, because we know we only have a certain window, and we know they're just going to be a backlash, so let's just give them all the stuff it's I mean, I was being challenged. I have a pretty wide variety of content, like 40 different workshops, right? So the basics, like trust and things like that, but also pretty advanced con. I mean, I did content on anti-racism and privilege and, you know, pretty jarring stuff, and I was being challenged, like, Julie, we need more, like, harsher. Like, not harsher, but like, go stronger with this. It's like, I think people thought they were ready, and they absolutely were not like we need to baby pool, not deep end, and then somewhere in between, right? And I think that's a really hard part of social justice work and inclusion work is how hard do you push and how much do you compromise? Because it always feels like we're compromising. And I get it. You know, women of color are hurting. 300,000 have left the workforce since the current administration. That's not a coincidence. That isn't they don't feel safe. They feel very threatened and very betrayed. I do. I, and I'm not a woman of color, and so I can only imagine how they feel and all that to say, We've got to find a way to strike the middle of this pendulum. I mean, this is exhausting going back and forth. There has to be something in the middle. And I think that's kind of where I'm at with the work is just taking a meaningful pause working with clients that my favorite client right now is not a household name, and we got plenty of household names we've worked with over the years, but that doesn't actually really matter. The words companies are very simple when you get to but it sounds cool. This, you would not know this company household name. They've been doing allyship programs for years, and they've slowly built up their employee resource groups. They have like three of them now, but they did the work slowly, methodically. They tied it to a business problem. They had a wonderful senior male leader that that's how I became engaged with them at a conference. He was their sponsor, supporting them on the leadership team. And now, you know, we're working on an allyship program rollout, and it's meaningful work. It's purposeful work. It feels right, it feels necessary. It feels like they're bought in, of course, I'm sure they have naysayers running around there too, but it feels like they're really approaching their persuadable in a very welcoming, inclusive way. And that's the irony, I think, of the work is we got in our own way, didn't seem inclusive. About inclusion, and it's like, I've heard stories and I didn't believe it at first, because, like, I haven't been a part of this. Have I done this? And I'm sure I've contributed to these problems too. But I mean, so many people I interviewed for my book, wonderful white male leaders that I've worked with I call allies over the years, are like, Julie, I was told I couldn't get promoted because I'm a white man, or there's if I make another hire, it has to be a woman of color. I was like, someone told you that they're like, No way. And then, like, three of them told me the same exact stories. Like, Man, there is some weird stuff that happened, and that really breaks my heart, because that wasn't that was an opportunistic way to advance diversity. That's not a sustainable way. This work is forever. Work. It's legacy, work we've it's the slow, methodical approach that's going to win. I know that's not as far. Fun. It bothers me. I get impatient too, but we're not going to push, push, push this work. It's always going to be met with resistance if we do it that way.

Kim Meninger 

Absolutely. And that can be really frustrating for people who are very action-oriented, for people who are, you know, very, very committed and patient. You know, patience is not something that many of us have, but I think about some of the things that you were saying earlier, and I wonder, too, if you have thoughts on it's generally easier to do this as a collective, as opposed to trying to do this as an individual. And you mentioned some leaders not having the courage to speak truth to power. And I wonder, if you have thoughts on what people, perhaps people listening, could think about doing to create more momentum and kind of prevent themselves from being that one person who's way out on that limb right that you know, kind of come together with other people who are like minded, and might be able to, you know, we were talking about power before, too. I think their power in numbers.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, well, I've been that person out on the limb and, you know, shouting at everybody, like, why don't you care? And it's just you can't make people care. You just can't. I have found the probably the most compelling exercise that I've done over the years is lead people through like a why exercise. So like Simon Sinek, you know, start with the why. We often start with the how and the what. Racism is a problem, sexism is a problem, and that, that, that, that just causes resistance when you start like that. So instead, find a way to meet the person where they're at right. Like, what do you care about? What are your values? Why? Like, is the status quo? Like, why if everything stays the same way? Like, how would we hurt? Like, what would we lose? And if you can kind of tap into people's natural feelings, most humans, right? Again, 90% want these things. They want inclusion for not just them, but for others. And so over the years, I've led people through the exercise, and they say really interesting things. It's fun to do, like a word cloud with them, but I usually share mine as an example is I have three girls. You know, of course, I want the world to be more inclusive for them, because it wasn't for me, and I don't want them to have the same crappy corporate experience that I did. That's silly. Want there to be more inclusive leaders for them and future generations. And sometimes that resonates with people. It's kind of a common one that's a big entry point for men that are fathers of girls, which I used to be like, Oh my gosh, I roll. But at this point, let's take what we can get. People like, if that's the entry point, take it like, Let's build from there. It could be, you know, people's sometimes people share, like, my values of fairness and justice are very strong. Sometimes people mention personal relationships they've had with a mentor different than them or their caregivers growing up. It could be it's usually personal, though. The business case doesn't usually come up because there is a strong business case associated with inclusion work. But people rarely say, Well, I want to be more profitable. Yes, that happens to business people, but it's often the human intrinsic belief, when you map to that, and then you tie the work to that, that you're helping with that, I call it your ally. Why? If everything's centered in that, then when something weird happens in the news or some executive order comes out, you're not going to waiver on it, because you've already defined that this is personally important to you, and that's the work we have to get back to at organizations. That's where we need to start. Is really crafting a solid why around it, why it matters? Why? If we don't do this, what's it going to cost us? And humans naturally loss aversion. You know, we don't like to lose things, and so show people what they stand to lose. I mean, we're, we're losing things right now. We're, I am concerned about the long-term impact of this. Not even nine months. It's just been a lot.

Kim Meninger 

You’re absolutely right. It's exhausting, and it impacts every one of us. And one of the things that comes up for me too, as you talk about sort of the emotional charge of talking about race and gender right now is I have found it really helpful to frame this discussion using the introvert extrovert dynamic, because introversion is often a, a trait that makes people feel excluded, because workplaces are so biased towards whoever's the loudest and the fastest when it comes to sharing their ideas, and introversion cuts across every other dimension of identity, right? And so I. Have found that if we, you know, sort of start with something like that, it can be a good baby step in the direction of, at least getting people to open their minds to, oh yeah, I can see how this affects me, or I can see where I can be more of an ally in these meetings that I'm in. And then it kind of opens that, it can open the door a little bit more broadly towards other dimensions of identity, but I think kind of starting, starting there can be feel a little safer for people.

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I don't have that. One of my towers exercising at me thinking about that. That's a good one. I teach a class at Indiana University in the business school, and it's about decision-making. And one of our modules is on exactly that personality and how personality, diversity of personality, influences decision making, and exactly the point you're saying. And Susan Kane talked about this in her book, quiet, right? Introverts? Yeah, decision about the loudest and the fastest doesn't mean your ideas are any less valid, we probably are much more valid because we've thought about them more. So we're losing out, right? I mean, what does that effect? What is that costing us when we let the loudest, fastest voices dominate innovation, risky decision? I mean, just all sorts of things. If you were to take a second to quantify the impact at that. And think about strategies that we could do to work across different personality styles. I mean, think about how powerful it would be to have respect for people's, you know, different types of working styles. And that's something like trust I mentioned earlier. That's something that kind of the basics that I'm getting back to, I have, like, a self-awareness course in allyship that people are requesting now, which I was like, huh, yeah, the things that I developed a long time ago were kind of going full circle on and then I get in my head of, like, I need to be pushing to your point faster, you know, pushing people to, like, go back to the extremes. But, you know, maybe, maybe we didn't, hadn't done a lot of the foundational work I think that we needed to do to make more complex things happen. So maybe this, going back to the basics, as I would call it, is something that we needed to do all along, and this is our calling to do it so that we can do the meaningful work and the longer-term work later.

Kim Meninger 

I think you're absolutely right, and you talked about loss aversion. And I just think that in times of great anxiety, we are that much more sensitive to change. And I think right now people are just really worried and change feels scary, even if it's good change. And so we do have to get back to basics and really just kind of take people with us on this journey, because the true believers are already there.

Julie Kratz 

I know we're just talking to each other exactly. It's really comforting. And I really do like those conversations like, Oh, they're on the same page. I don't have to worry we're going to move forward. Like, that's clearly not like we need to talk to other people that think differently than us, and it's uncomfortable. It's not going to be, this was easy. We would have done it already, and then people like, I truly, why do I have to keep doing this? Why don't they do it too? And it's like, I know, I know it's frustrating. I am like, losing my patience every day, but I also know that this is too important for us not to work on it together.

Kim Meninger 

Exactly, exactly. And so truly, I could talk to you all day, but in the interest of time, I know this is, this is your work. So where can people find you if they want to learn more, stay connected to you?

Julie Kratz 

Yeah, so my business's name is Next Pivot Point. So next pivot point dot com There we have free training videos, all sorts of like, really cool resources. And I have a Forbes column where I publish weekly so you can follow me on Forbes or LinkedIn as well. Julie Kratz, K, R, A, T, Z, wonderful.

Kim Meninger 

I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. And thank you so much for what you're doing. I can only imagine what a struggle it is for you every day, but I think you know you're doing really important work. I'm grateful on behalf of everybody listening as well. And thank you for being here.

Julie Kratz 

Thanks for having me.