Gardens vs. Gold Mines

In this episode of The Impostor Syndrome Files, we talk about creating workplaces where people can thrive. My guest this week is Josh Block, executive advisor and author of People Matter at Work.

Josh shares the story of becoming president of his family's business at age 29 and the lessons he learned from stepping into a role he didn't feel fully prepared to lead. We explore how curiosity, humility and a willingness to rely on the strengths of others helped him navigate uncertainty and grow as a leader.

In our conversation, we discuss why leadership is less about having all the answers and more about helping others succeed. Josh introduces his powerful "gardens versus gold mines" metaphor and explains why leaders must choose whether they want to develop people or simply extract value from them.

We also talk about the importance of maintaining a non-anxious presence during challenging times, the shift from a "me" mindset to a "we" mindset and the role curiosity plays in building stronger teams. Finally, Josh shares his perspective on the unique questions women often bring to leadership conversations and why creating space for different perspectives leads to better outcomes.

About My Guest

Josh Block is a seasoned business leader and entrepreneur passionate about building cultures where people thrive—at work and in life. A graduate of Taylor University, Josh began his career by founding a service company in Muncie, Indiana, focused on creating employment opportunities within the city’s urban core. That early experience cemented his belief in the power of people-first, purpose-driven work.

In 2011, Josh and his wife, Lacey, moved to Lansing, Michigan, where he assumed the role of president at Block Imaging, a family-owned company at the time and now an affiliate of Siemens Healthineers and CommonSpirit Health. Block Imaging provides refurbished imaging systems, parts, and service to healthcare providers worldwide, empowering them to provide a second chance at life for imaging equipment and patients. Under Josh’s leadership, Block Imaging has grown from fifty to more than four hundred team members globally, becoming a model for trust-driven culture and people-powered performance.

In 2018, Josh launched Cube Mobile Imaging to offer mobile imaging solutions across the United States, helping to expand access and reduce patient backlogs. He also speaks and coaches on leadership, organizational culture, and identity.

Outside the office, Josh brings the same energy to his personal life. He enjoys wakesurfing, paddleboarding, and golf, and has competed in triathlons ranging from sprint to 70.3 distances. A few of his favorite indulgences include Cheetos, Cherry Coke, and Cap’n Crunch—and he is known for a legendary waffle recipe.

He and Lacey have been married for twenty-three years and live in Lansing with their two children.

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Connect with Josh:

Book: https://www.amazon.com/People-Matter-Work-Fostering-Everyone/dp/1637635044

Website: https://peoplematteratwork.com/

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Transcript

Kim Meninger

Hi, welcome, Josh. I'm excited to have you here today. I'd love to start by inviting you to tell us a little bit about yourself.

Josh Block

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Kim. So, I have a lot of second-generation family business in the imaging community for the last 15 years, called Block Imaging. So, we're in radiology, have really loved business and work since I was a young man and kind of doing entrepreneurial things as a teenager, and so became president of Block Imaging over the course of a weekend unexpectedly, so was a sales rep on a Friday, was president on Monday, two brothers older than me, again 29 years old, $30 million organization, and it's kind of your oh my gosh moment, and born out of there being so much I didn't know, it really ended up being a gift of being able to be curious, being able to ask questions, being able to galvanize a team together, and so that was in 2011 company grew from 30 million to 230 million, and today I'm an advisor at the family business, and also lead Cube mobile imaging, which is we have mobile MRIs and CT scanners in semitrailers that we rent around the United States, and then authored People Matter at Work just came out in March, and kind of shares the stories, the lessons learned, the principles carried, mistakes made in pursuit of creating a place where people love to work.

Kim Meninger

Wow. Can we go back to the moment when you became, you know, you made that shift that weekend, right before you were, you were 30. What did that feel like? It sounds like in hindsight you recognize it as a great opportunity. Did you feel stressed in the moment? Did you experience any kind of self-doubt or imposter syndrome?

Josh Block

Oh, so our family had just moved from Indiana to Michigan, and we're kind of asking the question, why did we move? That I thought maybe I'd be, I'd be, have the opportunity to lead the, the family business into the next generation. Certainly not at that season of life. I had a one and a three-year-old at the time, and certainly not at that speed. I kind of expected more of a crawl, walk, run training, and, and, so, yeah, I, I don't know that I even have the opportunity to um to like it was such a thrown in the deep end moment that imposter syndrome was not a phrase at the time. I think really it's in the last 10 years started to become more prevalent, but it was definitely a moment where it was like, how do we harness my strengths, how do we find a team to build around my weaknesses, which were many at the time, and that really was a gift then, and it is a gift now to continue to lead an organization where I'm really incredible at a few things, and we have a team of people who are incredible at things that I could never dream of doing in 10 lifetimes.

Kim Meninger

That is a really important point, and something that I think is still very hard for people to accept is that they, you know, they can be a successful leader without knowing and doing everything themselves, and even if they're not the ones doing it, there is often this assumption that I still need to be as good at it as they are, or else I'm a fraud in some way.

Josh Block

Yeah, and what, what led to me being a leader was my competence, like I was strong at at being a technician, at, at leading an operation, or whatever it was, is getting stuff done, and so my competence is what led to gold stars on the report card, and now all of a sudden it's more about collaboration, it's more about chemistry, and the reality is, if we're really good leaders, eventually the people who are doing what we used to do will outrun us, that the business changes and the market changes and the climate changes, and so today I was a sales rep 15 years ago, and for the first couple of years as president I probably had a really, really good feel for what it's like to deliver our products in the healthcare community. 15 years later, so much has changed that I am now even in sales, which was my background. So there's all sorts of areas, engineering and so forth, that I can't even pretend I have to just engage from a place of curiosity today, even in the place of my expertise, even in the place that I was a competent technician. I would, I would have to start from a place of curiosity, because I don't really know what it's like to be on the ground and be a sales rep at our organization today, in the way that I did 15 years ago.

Kim Meninger

So when I hear you say that, I feel like there's a level of humility that's required for that. I feel like a lot of people have a hard time managing the ego that comes, and I don't even necessarily mean that I feel like there's ego on both sides, right? There's the ego of being the person who wants all of the attention and all of the power, but then they're also the people who really struggle with being enough, right? And so to be able to have that confident humility of, hey, you know, I know what I do know, and I'm willing to learn, and there are great people around me who can help. Was that something that came naturally to you, or did you have to build that?

Josh Block

So, there's a, there's a chapter in the book called The Gift of Humility, and in really describing and defining humility as an accurate view of my strengths and weaknesses, and other strengths and weaknesses, and I think that being thrown in the deep end of the pool, really in many ways like a toddler flailing around trying to keep your head above water, is that there was no opportunity to fake it. To suggest that I had a master plan, a five-year vision, had it all figured out, I had not seen a profit and loss statement, very little information or background in the HR space, or really in finance. Had never been to our Japan office. So, I mean, if you took what I knew and what I didn't know, it wouldn't even be close. I mean, there was.. I, there was so much that I didn't know, and that ended up being a real gift. Is that secure enough that there's something that I bring to the table, that, that I have some skills and abilities that are unique and will benefit this team, but it's going to be through tapping into the knowledge and the capabilities and the strengths that other people carry very much. In the, I think, of Benjamin Zander, he did a TED talk called The Power of Classical Music, and it's not really about classical music, it's really about leadership, but he talks about the conductor, his power is made, made manifest through, through making other people powerful, that he does not have an instrument in his hands or in her hands, and yet all of the sound comes from his or her players, and so I really, that's probably the image that comes to mind when I think about leading people.

Kim Meninger

I love that. I think that's a really powerful image, and one thing I think about when I think about the people that I work with and the struggles that they have, there is the internal conflict that comes with being thrown into a position like that, and you know all of the doubts and insecurities that surface as a result, but then there's also, and I don't know if you've dealt with any of this, the external perceptions that people may have, that why is it this guy, and is, you know, he doesn't have the same experience that so and so has, or you know, it's, it's it becomes a battle to not just build your own confidence but also sort of manage the perceptions that other people have of you, and I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

Josh Block

Well, even more so, 29 years old and no beard, you know, felt so young, and, and further than what you're saying is that my last name was on the company, so you only got the job because you're the son of the owner, and so there's this, like, there's always there's two ends of the spectrum, which is one, I only got this job because my last name is Block, and then the other end of the spectrum is that, like, I have no capabilities whatsoever to do this job, or maybe even I earned it, like I have done everything I needed to earn this, and the reality is, for me, how can I work every day to earn the job that I've been given, and so it's grabbing both of those together and kind of determining a third way, but yeah, outside perspectives, and why did you get your job? I mean, it was known, I, I was not, was I the best person in the company to lead it? Probably not, but that's just part of the family business, and being handed a role, and then having to earn it.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, that's a whole other layer, right there, so you wrote your book, People Matter at Work, and I'm curious, what, what led you to decide to write a book on that topic? You know, I think it's a, it's a really important topic. It's not always, in my opinion, given as much attention as it should. Like, what guided you to the point where you said, I really want to write about this.

Josh Block

So, in 2011 when we started out on this journey, in my, my view of work, which was a positive thing growing up, my dad never complained about work. My mom cared deeply for people, and so I wanted to, I wanted to enjoy work. I didn't want it to be a have to, but more of a get to. And then I got into my 20s and realized, whoa, work is like a four-letter word of our time. I mean, case of the Mondays and working for the weekend, and it's just such a negative portrayal of work. And so, when I became president, the first moment was really to survive, and then we started asking ourselves, like, 80,000 hours is what we're going to spend working for the most part as adults. Why does it have to suck? And so we began toward this, this mission of people matter. If people matter more, it's not that performance doesn't matter, we'll talk about that, but because people matter, we seek to create a thriving team culture that serves the healthcare community and providing a second chance at life for patients, so that was our mission. And what happened is we were just doing our thing, running our zoo, and all of a sudden people started taking note, and they started saying nice things, and asking questions, and, and sending their friends to work at the company. Right, that's a great test of a culture, is that people are bringing their friends, and eventually people just said, "Hey, would you, would you tell the story? When are you going to share? When are you going to write a book? And so, in 2020 I was out on a run and decided to start the process, and it took me about six years of practicing and writing and continuing to learn, and coming up with all sorts of new stories and new experiences that led to finally launching the book in March of 26.

Kim Meninger

Congratulations on that. I think that's incredible, especially with that big job. Dee, can you tell us a little bit about what the, you know, beyond the title, what is the core like thesis of the book?

Josh Block

Yeah, what if we could create a place where people love to work? Is the question that I've sought to answer for 15 years, and who would I need to be, and how would I need to lead, and how would I need to see people, and so that really, what if we get a place where people love to work, and not just love to work because it's easier, there's, there's kickball games or free canola or something like that, but that they're stretched and they're challenged to become more than they ever dreamed of, that they go home and they're better parents, they're better spouses, they're better community members, and so I think one of the frustrating parts for me is that culture, when it gets talked about, gets almost shared as like this tolerance of mediocrity, is oh, you just, just love, like you're this, this swimming pool that everybody just floats around, and in reality, like, for me, I feel like it's this, this believing in people and challenging them to become more than they ever dreamed of, and so that they trust me, they respect me, but it's not because I let them slack, or I just put up with, with again, mediocrity, but so that's really long answer to your question, but this idea of what if we could create a place where people love to work, and again, not just because it's easy, but because they're stretched, was really the impetus that we, that led to us living out this culture, and then we found some extraordinary results, 90 plus percent engagement, and if you go on block imaging and you look at social media and those sorts of things, we've grown a ton in the last couple of years, but you'll find a culture where people, many, many, many of them love to work here, and those who don't love to work here, we're still working.

Kim Meninger

So obviously, this is not an easy question to answer. It's very complex, but what does that look like in terms of the balance between getting the work done and investing in the people? Because I think that a lot of companies are prioritizing speed and efficiency production outcomes over the investment in the people as you're describing it, and even companies who claim to be human-centered, I think, have you know, have not really done a great job with the culture side, and they, in the piece that you're describing. So, what does that look like from an intentionality standpoint? Like, how do the leaders in your organization see this as part of their job description? Like, how do you get this to be a central focus?

Josh Block

Yeah, so there were 3t that I came across that were kind of, I tripped and fell into them. I didn't have them at the beginning, and that's just that's part of the story that shifts a culture from me to we, that many organizations operate in the me cycle. The boss is looking out for themselves. The employee returns the favor, and everyone wonders why the boss doesn't appreciate their work, and, and that the team member, that everybody feels disenfranchised, everybody feels entitled. The boss gets, gets frustrated because he or she is carrying so much of the load, the people are trying to do as little as possible, and again, it's because everyone is focused on themselves, and yet when we grow up as organizational leaders, we create a place where we're recycle-oriented, bosses become leaders, employees become team members, and we're actually looking at the people as gardens to cultivate rather than mines, like a gold mine where you just strip out the materials and the resources and you leave it worse than you found it. And so I think gardens versus gold mines is, how do we see people, and do we want to develop them, or do we just want to take from them?

Kim Meninger

And that's a fantastic analogy that the gardens versus gold mines, and I think that there it requires a skill set and an intentionality that I don't think a lot of leaders don't have, and I think part of it, and it's really interesting to hear you tell the story, because you describe it as really being thrown into the deep end, and it's not like you, I mean, I don't know a lot about your backstory, but it doesn't sound like you were immersing yourself in leadership development and understanding, you know, how to lead others from an academic standpoint, yet you, you forged this path that clearly works, and I wonder if you think about what maybe other leaders aren't thinking about or could be doing differently to incorporate more of this into their work, like what are we missing?

Josh Block

Yeah, so it reminds me of a story, we're in Cancun, and my wife and myself and two of our best friends are sitting there, and they're sharing. We have adopted our son, who's almost 17 years old, and they were considering adoption, so they had two girls. They were thinking about adoption, and my wife, who's sweet as can be. This was not an antagonistic question. She just looked at them, and she said, after they had shared all their story and their decision of whether they were gonna adopt or not adopt. She said, What if this isn't about you? And it was just one of those moments, like my, my best friend, tears start rolling down his face, and it was the, it was the million dollar question, right? And I, and I've thought about that question really over the last eight years. They did adopt a son named Benjamin as well, and so it's super fun to see him grow up out of that story, but I think it's if I could make a T-shirt for leaders today, what if it's not about me? And if we move from like a 15 year old teenager who's really focused on themselves and their own world, and they've made this shift from dependence to independence, it's about me, it's about what I want, and you know, I have a son right now, he's almost 17 again, and he's like, it's the predominant language is like, well, I want this or I don't want that, but we have to grow out of that place to interdependence, is where it goes from me to we, and all of a sudden we start thinking about the people we lead, and the reality is many of us are frustrated by the people who let us at one time, and then we become the very same people when we, oh, now that I'm a leader, I get to see all that's going on, and I have such a bigger picture, and I'm going to do it just like them, but I think somehow I'm doing it differently, and for us, we need to never forget when I was 25 years old, and I wanted to be promoted from to team leader to director, or whatever. Once you become president, or once you get another title, oh, who cares about titles? Nobody cares about a corner office who has one. Nobody cares about titles when they have one, right? Nobody cares about pay when they have it. And so to never forget what it was like when you wanted, whether it was move up the ladder or grow in your skills and abilities, or increase your compensation, or grow into a new title, and so for us, like, can we never forget what it's like to be a team member under our leadership, because oftentimes once we get the title and once we get the office, or once we get the role and responsibilities, they weigh us down and we forget what it's like to be on the other side of us.

Kim Meninger

That's such a fantastic point. I think you're absolutely right. Like, when it's no longer your goal, right, it's not as it doesn't feel as, you know, critical or urgent as it once did. And so really keeping that perspective is so important, and one of the things that I think about a lot in the work that I do is that we essentially have these competing versions of ourselves. There's the, there's the good, evolved sort of, you know, a person who is aligned with our values and stays true to the leader we want to be, and then there's the version of ourselves that shows up when we're triggered and we're under tremendous stress, a lot of that kind of goes out the window, and it's all about survival in this moment, and I wonder, do you feel like there are deliberate practices, or even just reminders, or things that you and your team do to manage the chaos that's going on around us, so that that can stay a focus, and we don't get just tangled up in the, in the now.

Josh Block

Yeah, I think one question for us to ask ourselves is, are we with the people, are we against them? And the image that comes to mind, and I know I've used a lot of images today, but this idea of, like, are we playing chess against our people? Are we putting together a puzzle with our people? And when you look at them as, like, we're on opposite sides of the table, almost like you're buying a car from someone who has their monitor facing themselves, and you can't get the information, and feels like you're against each other, and I'm trying to conquer you and. And I'm ultimately trying to win, and only one of us can win, versus when you put a puzzle together, you have a picture of what it looks like at the end, when someone drops a piece, you grab it before a dog eats it, because you want to finish it together, you know, hey, I see this, or I can, you know, you work together, and so I think, are we working with or against is one question, and sometimes I think if we stopped and asked ourselves that we're working more against them than we think, is that we're frustrated, we're, we're, we feel like they're entitled, and we feel like they don't get it, they don't understand, they're lazy, whatever it is, and when you begin to see them as entitled and lazy and treat them as entitled and lazy, we begin to reinforce that we push out the great people in the organization, and we're left with those who really are entitled and lazy, and probably the last piece, as you were asking the question, is this idea of being triggered, is what does it look like to bring a non-anxious presence to work, is that I think I don't talk a lot about this, but this idea that I think one of the greatest gifts I've given our organization is a non-anxious presence. Is that when things are going well, low anxiety, when things are when we have something really difficult going on, and an MRI quenches, which is when the helium releases out and you lose $75,000? What does that look like to be calm in the face of difficulty? I think is a really, really big deal, because people are drafting off of the poise that we carry, or the stress and anxiety that we carry.

Kim Meninger

Absolutely, I think that is such an underappreciated experience that you're describing, and you know people are rightfully stressed out, but how you carry yourself in those moments is critical.

Josh Block

And why, and why are you stressed? Like, when you say people are stressed out, it's like, well, you are, you're the wait a second, you're the leader, you have more control of your own life and schedule and responsibilities and tasks than you did when you were but somehow when you went from follower to leader you got stressed out or I am anxious and I'm like but where did it come from and what is it and sometimes I'll talk about stress like if we can find it is it too much is it I don't know what I'm doing is it the people what is it because then when, when we bubble it all into this big stress pile, it's really hard to tackle, but if we can break it down and understand, and really take a moment, just go, where is this stress coming from? Then we can tackle it as people who are responsible, as opposed to those who are victims of it.

Kim Meninger

Yes, yes, I love that, and I think very similarly when you talked about the stress bubble, that if we are feeling anxious or if we're feeling doubtful or stressed, like you said, you can't really work with that, you have to break it down into its component parts, right? Examine it at the very, you know, at the core components level, so that you can actually do something with it.

Josh Block

Yeah, no doubt about it. And you and I were having a conversation before we got on the podcast, and about your listenership, and even my passion for seeing women thrive in leadership at work, and in some of the interesting dynamics that come up within the realm of imposter syndrome, specifically for women, has been something that I'm really interested in, and curious to chat about.

Kim Meninger

Yeah, please say more about what your experience has been with that, like what do you see in your world?

Josh Block

Yeah, I think one of the things I've been processing, especially with women in leadership, is there's a beauty in not knowing what's going on that when what, what got us here as a strong technician won't get us there as a strong leader and I've watched sometimes in our executive team and in some of our leadership forums that when a man asks a question they're, they're curious and yet sometimes when a woman asks a question they're viewed as clueless, and I've just been kind of watching that and wondering where that's residing from. And the next thought in that realm has been one of the things I love is that the curious question is great, it's on point, it's in the direction of where the men are going, and I put that in quotes. And then you have the woman. One of the things I really appreciate about women in leadership is the willingness to ask the bigger question. And my mom was a leader in an organization, and everyone went around - it was a new organization - and they were talking about their hopes for the organization in five years, maybe it was even in 10 years, and there were a whole bunch of men in the room, and they went around, and they answered what they wanted from the organization in 10 years, and my mom said, when they got to her, she said, I hope that my kids will say that I'm glad they did this, like, like that we would raise kids in homes that we wouldn't trade success in this organization for the expense. Of our families, and I think all the men in the room were just like, wow, her answer was better than all of our answers, and you know, and so I think that I think that the invitation for women is to keep asking bold questions, the invitation for men is to realize sometimes when a question is asked that's bigger than your scope, that's outside of, of the train of thought that's the one to watch out for is the person who's and you and I were talking about this is this idea of like how we're bowling and we're throwing the ball down and we're knocking down the pins and then there's the person who asks like why are we doing this in the first place should we even be bowling at all and, and so I think that that's my invitation or my encouragement is to women to keep asking that question, and for men to not see it as a clueless question. Actually, it's a super insightful question, and sometimes we're so head down, so singularly focused that we can miss, we can think it's clueless when it's actually really, really, really brilliant.

Kim Meninger

I think that's a really important point, especially at a time in history where we have a lot of unknowns and there are a lot of different potential paths forward with AI, and you know, the changing workplace. I wonder if you observed that interaction, is there something you would say, or you would encourage people to do in that moment to keep, you know, to keep that question alive, and because I do think a lot of women struggle with once they've gotten their wrist slapped a few times for asking a question that's perceived as clueless, as you described it, they're not going to ask those questions anymore, and so it takes, you know, it sort of takes a more collective effort to encourage and reward that behavior.

Josh Block

Are you familiar with a working genius? Okay, so Patrick Lencioni has come up with six working geniuses, and they're, they're from Wonder at the highest level, which is like this, this big existential question of should we, should we fly to Las Vegas, and then it gets all the way to it spells widget, and it gets down to tenacity, which is like I'm the one who's going to make sure we have sandwiches on the plane when we fly, and so one of the things that I think is unique in this, this is not fair entirely for men and women, but I do think that some of my experience says that men a lot of times will try to stay at the same altitude as the meeting is flying at, so it's we're at 20,000 feet, we can go down to 18,000 or 22,000 and I do feel like sometimes it's a disruptive male or sometimes it's a female who's willing to ask the question that's a lot higher up or much lower is more like this is great guys, we're having a wonderful existential conversation, but like, what is the next step? And so I think that for I would say keep asking those questions, but we have to be aware of altitude sickness when we when we're at 15,000 feet and all of a sudden we ask a 40,000 foot question or a 5000 foot question, there tends to be this altitude sickness, and how do we then set up it's the right question to ask, but how do we set it up to make people aware that we're getting ready to change altitudes, that hey, I want to just pause for a moment. I know we're talking about directing, going toward Vegas, but would it be okay if I just ask a question about have we ever considered whether we should take a cruise to France, or, or should, should we, you know, whatever the question is, or it might be like, hey, we've been talking about going to Vegas, and I know we've had a lot of meetings in this regard, and I'd love to ask, like, are your thoughts to fly, drive, or take a taxi, or what is it? Is it can we set up the question and give kind of a prefix so that someone knows you're taking us in another direction, because otherwise it feels like the drop in the air?

Kim Meninger

That is such a great way to describe it, and I think you're absolutely right. I am a big believer in just sort of naming things out loud, as opposed to assuming that everybody is on the same page with you, because there is a lot that gets lost in translation, and so that seems like a really smart way to shift gears, as you're describing, right?

Josh Block

Yeah, and it might, it may shift the meeting, it may not, but if you're going to ask something that's a provocative question, sometimes it's asked so fast, especially for men, that they, it's kind of unsettling, it's kind of like, wait, my mind was going in one direction, and we know that women have some just incredible abilities to go in multiple directions at the same time, in a way that oftentimes men don't, and so, like, I was, I was doing this right here, and now you're taking me off course, can you at least just tell me you're taking me off course, I. Again, I've never had this conversation. We don't talk a lot about males and females and leadership, because it's such an.. I don't know, it's like if you.. if you talk, it's such a hot button topic. But I am.. I'm thinking about Amy, who's just two doors down from me, and she is on our executive team, and she is a unique working genius, where it's wonder and tenacity. She actually has the highest level altitude and the lowest level, so she vacillates between like dreaming big dreams, and she's got this fierce tenacity to carry it to the to the end, and so she is someone who I want to talk about this idea of you might be asking the right question, if you just set up the room a little bit, I think it'd be received in a very different way.

Kim Meninger

Yeah. And you know, you kind of have to take people on the journey with you, as you're describing.

Josh Block

Yeah, versus going around a corner, going, you know, 45 miles an hour, and everyone's grabbing on to the board.

Kim Meninger

You have given us some fantastic insights, Josh. I truly could keep going for hours. I'm sure there's so much more that we could discuss, but for people who are listening and want more of your work, your wisdom, where can they find you?

Josh Block

Yeah, so you can look up People Matter at Work dot com is the website. My email is Josh at People Matter at Work dot com and then they can find People Matter at Work on any website, Amazon being the most prominent. They can pick up the book, and if they're interested in a keynote for their team, I'm more than happy to do it. I do a couple of them on identity, leading from vision, and then ultimately the shift from the me cycle to the we cycle, which is the book where I share about transitioning to become president, and then what it looked like to walk it out for the next 15 years.

Kim Meninger

Fantastic. I'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well. And thank you so much for being here, Josh.

Josh Block

I appreciate it. It's great to be with you, Kim.